Rear brakes with the GSXR 17x5.5 wheel mod

[FJscott]

Yes you are right about the year. my wheel is off of a 2005 GSXR 750. the good thing about the 04-05 gixxer is the axle diameter and rotor diameter is the same as the second gen underslung R1 so caliper bracket geometry works. I had to weld a mounting tab under swingarm for the torque arm is all.

Scott

[ribbert]

Brake threads often bring up an odd range of braking techniques.

Braking technique on a motorbike is determined by physics, not preference or what works best for you.

I sometimes watch those Youtube compilations of motorbike accidents and there is always a surprising number of guys falling off in a straight line, from front wheel lock ups. It is often to avoid a hazard so far ahead of them they could roll to a stop before they got there. Panic!

Accident research says that in 80% of accidents where a bike has collided with something while under brakes, the bike was capable of being stopped before impact had more, or all, of its braking capacity been used.

IMO (humbly as always) many riders are scared of their front brake and even in an emergency are shy on using it. Either that or they just grab a handful for all their worth and fall off.
Even in a panic stop the front brake requires some finesse and this can only learnt with practice.

Pat and Hooligan very wisely said recently they routinely practices crash stops. This is a great thing to do. An emergency stop should not be something you need to think about. Someone here just mentioned they have one style of braking for normal riding and another in an emergency, that won't work. In a panic, instinct will see you do what you are most familiar with. If that is mostly rear brake, or rear brake first, well, that's going to see you slide right into whatever you were trying to avoid with back tyre smoking and not losing much speed (until the abrupt loss of speed at impact)

It is near impossible to expect to achieve near max braking in an emergency if you have no experience or feel for doing so. Even in a panic stop, you need to feed the first little bit to load up the front tyre to avoid a lock up. This takes practice.

Noel

[Country Joe]

Noel,
  I agree  with your post wholeheartedly. At least once every ride I am out on, I will imagine that a car just pulled out  of that driveway, right up there, they didn't see me when they looked and now I have to deal with the imaginary crisis. Everybody needs  to be intimately familiar with the sound and sensations of the front tire approaching lock up. And they shouldn't be afraid of going there, again and again.
Joe

[mark1969]

Even in a panic stop the front brake requires some finesse and this can only learnt with practice.

For me, the key word is 'finesse'. Without that, you have stop and start style riding / driving. Trying to attain a balanced style of riding with a healthy dose of defensive riding and large dollops of finesse is the key.

I try to work on the basis that I'm always learning, every single ride.  

[mark1969]

ed to cars, because there is more to think about..makes it fun (aside from the acceleration / speed / freedom / fresh air / noise etc etc..!). 

If you're thinking about braking during a panic stop, you likely could use more practice so that it's instinctive.  But I agree and know what you mean... you have more control over things on a bike than in a cage.

It's difficult to describe braking style on the internet, but aside from my dry description, I believe much of my riding is instinctual, but every ride is a new situation with new experiences.

[andyb]

Braking technique on a motorbike is determined by physics, not preference or what works best for you.

I will cheerfully argue this one to the death with you, Noel.  If we assume that <x> is the perfect style of braking and will provide the shortest stops every single time, why would I say that it's not perfect?

Because the rider isn't perfect.  What you're comfortable with is the best choice, because that's what your instincts are going to default to in a panic situation.  To me that says get out there and practice those stops!  Not only the "perfect" stop, where the rear brake is of minimal to zero use because it's airborn above perfect, clean, dry pavement... pratice also when it's wet, or on that one corner where there's occasional sand and the blind idiot in the truck ready to stick his nose in front of your wheel!  Maybe these tires are better in the wet than the last set,  or have worn and aren't as good as they were, or are great over on 3rd street's asphalt but notsomuch on Route 11's concrete.

I'll agree that in any given situation there's a method of braking that will work better than the rest, as that's easily obvious.  But if your instinct says to do a front-brake, progressively squeezing harder and harder until you start feeling the back go light or the tire squeaks, you'll do brilliantly at avoiding accidents.  Until there's that patch of diesel, or the rain left the pavement wet, or there's sand, etc.  I'm probably not the best person on the brakes, but I can stop safely in those situations as well; that's the sort of thing I practice.  It means that there's been a compromise and my instinctive rear brake use is probably not going to help me on perfect pavement with warm tires... but I sure seem to ride more on marginal pavement full of unknowns than on racetracks.

As far as practicing goes, practice ALL the controls, not just the brakes.  Go do a wheelie, so that when one just happens as you crest the rise in third, you're still in your comfort zone and able to control the bike.  Practice a hard launch from a stop, so that your clutch and throttle can work together when you see the car in your mirrors is damnsure not going to see the stop sign that you're sitting at in time.  Practice blowing the rear tire away down the exit ramp to the interstate near the gravel pit that is ALWAYS covered in sand so that when the tire slips in some other situation, you're still comfortable with things.

The best part is that rider ability translates to every bike you ride, and is the best upgrade you can make.  Plus it's fun as hell learning just what you and the machine are capable of doing!

It's difficult to describe braking style on the internet, but aside from my dry description, I believe much of my riding is instinctual, but every ride is a new situation with new experiences.

As I blathered on about above, in an emergency or stressful situation, or even when you're just tired and a little on autopilot, your instincts will rule the roost.  Practice can sharpen and change them to be as good as they can be, and that's going to be a good thing no matter how you cut it.

[RD56]

Noel, Pat and Hooligan talk about the importance of practicing emergency stops, it really should be something that everybody in this forum should follow through with. Years ago, I was fortunate enough to have participated in Bob Bondurant's School of High Performance Driving. Of course at that time I thought that I knew it all and there was nothing that these guys could teach me as I had done a fair amount of WERA road racing and had done pretty well. These guys, of course, had raced professionally, raced for a living and done extremely well. At the end of the course, I realized that I had just graduated from kindergarten having been taught by several pros with a PHD in the physics of racing. Classroom work was informative, track work was invaluable. Before you ever got on the track you did hours of practice and exercises in braking, proper lines through corners and skid control. They had cars set up with outriggers that the Swedish Rally Team had developed. The instructor sat in the right seat with a rotary control that controlled the outriggers that raised and lowered the rear end of the car. Obviously doing this in a car is a little different than on a MC, but if memory serves, I think BMW had a setup like this for their bike courses.

One of the most important things that I learned was how to relax. Watching the instructors drive was a real revelation. They were so relaxed it looked like they were sitting in their lazy chair at home. If you've never placed yourself in a hairy situation you're probably pretty much cooked in a real life panic situation. Whether you like Keith Code or not, one thing that he preaches is the importance of relaxation and concentration. Clearly your brain can only process so much data, so if you can compartmentalize certain aspects of your physical activity on the bike so that it is almost automatic, this is where the practice come in, then the avoidance response gets more attention. That's not to say that the avoidance response may be Brain, to Self, "Hey maybe you better lay this thing down." At least you're able to make that decision quicker and with more clarity. The ultimate goal, obviously though,  is to recognize a dangerous situation faster, respond, and come out the other side unscathed. Another important point is look at your exit or path to safety, rather than the obstacle. This is why so many people hit the tree rather than maneuver around it. The bottom line is  that when I was able to relax more on the bike, loosen my grip on the bars, relax your muscles, performance got better.

The real reason for this discourse is that it could be worth while to include some functions like this at one of your meets. Include a track day. It's obviously easier to do some of these exercises on four wheels rather than two. No one wants to lay their bike down. But one simple exercise that can be done even at slow speeds was used at Bondurant's and Porsche's Driving Schools. This is great for breaking and vehicle control. Cones were used to create a single lane that terminated into a Y intersection. As the driver approached the intersection they were signaled at the last second to go right or left, therefore using brake and vehicle control to negotiate the intersection safely. Speed was increased with practice. I hear a lot of guys talking about not using rear brakes, but I can promise you that there is a time and place for a rear brake. And yes, I do know that most braking is done at the front.

As a local Pastor says on the radio: "Not a sermon, just a thought."   

[ribbert]

I will cheerfully argue this one to the death with you, Noel.  

You can if you like but I don't see what's to argue over.

I made no mention of ideal conditions only. Adjusting your braking for the less than perfect conditions and road surfaces, often a number of times in the same braking application, is obvious to the point of not even mentioning it in that context. If that needs explaining to someone, they shouldn't be riding a bike.

My point was aimed at the surprisingly large number of riders who have a bias for rear wheel braking. This has two outcomes, first, it is what they will do in an emergency because it is habit and will not see them stop anywhere near as fast as the bike is capable of. Second, it leaves them unfamiliar with the front brake and if they do grab it, will see them under use it or lock it up because they have no feel for it.
Hence, the suggestion of practice (ON ALL ROAD SURFACES)

However, I stand by original comment, rider preferences cannot alter the physics of weight bias, transfer and traction. Your bike is not going to stop any faster with mostly rear brake just because that's what you're comfortable with.

What you're comfortable with is the best choice, because that's what your instincts are going to default to in a panic situation.

Once again, what you're comfortable with can't alter the physics. For example, when I test rode my bike I commented to the owner that the front brake lever was bent out and difficult to reach and when you did, the brakes were useless (seized) anyway. "Never use 'em, especially in an emergency" He had been riding all his life and he was comfortable with that. Or, the fellow rider at a coffee stop explaining the evils of ABS, it prevented him from laying his bike down to avoid and accident, something that had "saved his life three times" he was comfortable with that.

The principle of effective motorbike braking is determined by physics with obvious and common sense adjustments made for what's under you tyre at that very moment.

I agree wholeheartedly with the notion of constant practice of control of the bike. It is good to be comfortable with the bike being a bit out of shape. Fish tailing the rear on loose surfaces. (This was once something you could do on wet bitumen but these damn modern tyres are too sticky). Target fixation, cornering lines, low speed maneuvering, rapid take off, swerving, braking hard in corners, tightening up mid corner, reading road conditions etc.
If you practice all these things you are less likely to get a fright when your bike does something you hadn't planned on and more likely to remain unflustered and react appropriately.

I treat EVERY ride as an opportunity to practice something. Even a ride to the local shops, a smoother take off, slicker gear changes, a feet up figure eight without coming off the steering stops in the carpark, smarter filtering and so on.
I've been practicing for 45 years and still find room for improvement in every aspect of my riding, although I do keep getting better at it.

There are two types of rider/drivers. Those who see it as a skill to be practiced and improved on and those that stop learning the day they get their licence and the spend the next 50 years repeating the same mistakes rather than learning from them.

There are two things that to me require the greatest discipline and are the most difficult to master. When cornering hard, remaining focused on where you want the bike to go regardless of what distractions occur around you, and as a consequence, not looking at where you don't want to go. If too hot into a corner, a lot of very experienced riders have fallen for the trap of looking at what they don't want to hit rather than where they want to go.
The other is, never give up on the corner. It is very common when you are too fast into a corner, for whatever reason, to stand the bike up and make the most of straight line braking to wash off speed before spearing off the road.
I often practice this on bends by intentionally going wide. Pick a point on the outside of the corner and ride towards it, tightening up the turn as you get near the edge of the road. You can sometimes do this 3 or 4 times through the one corner. This is not a real life situation I find myself in often but it happens, strange roads, hidden double apex corners, tired, but even once can be a game ender.
I have found it very satisfying putting this to the test a few times. As has been said, and as I have experienced, it's amazing just how far over your bike will stick. And, even if you do still come off, well, you were going to do that anyway.

RD56 makes some great observations and one excellent point in particular, about being relaxed. EVERYTHING turns to shit the moment you tense up.

Practice, practice, practice. The more variety (road surface) you can include the better.

"Argue to the death" Andy? How about arm wrestling, I'm squeamish.

Noel

[FJ_Hooligan]

One thing I see missing from this discussion is the "one finger brakes."  How many people are actually good enough to survive one finger braking capability in a panic situation?  My guess is most people will wind up throwing themselves on their face with that much braking performance in a panic situation.   I see that the new Yamahas are now coming with 15mm front master cylinder brakes.  Perhaps the 14mm master has been a little bit of overkill?  

On a side note, checking my records, it looks like I got almost 10,000 miles out of my Conti-Motion rear tire commuting to work.  Picked up a Pirelli Diablo from Cycle Gear a few months back.  We'll see how long it lasts.

Finally, way to go Bubba Stewart!  Third win in a row!!!

[Flynt]

in a panic situation...

My dad taught me that panic leads to death...  keeping your wits and trying like hell to win are how you survive.  Now that I'm 50 and have seen enough survivors with never a single "My panic saved me...", I believe he was onto something.

I have "one finger brakes" in everything I own (ok, maybe not the RD) and just try not to panic.  The better the brakes the more controlled you can be in taking them to their limits.

Frank

[rktmanfj]

Finally, way to go Bubba Stewart!  Third win in a row!!!

Thanks.   

[Mike Ramos]

Re: rear wheel brakes -

Excellent position andyb. 

Great summation Flynt.

And Noel? Well that's just Noelitall.

Anyway, correct usage of the clutch does not appear to have been addressed.

Slam shut the throttle when at high speed and without proper use of the clutch no matter which brake you use or do not use will make little difference in the final outcome.

There is a reason why many of the late model sport bikes have slipper clutches...

No reason to parse the statement Noel, it is what it is: an empirical fact.

Regards to all & ride safe,

Midget.

[ribbert]

Re: rear wheel brakes -

Excellent position andyb. 

Great summation Flynt.

And Noel? Well that's just Noelitall.

Anyway, correct usage of the clutch does not appear to have been addressed.

Slam shut the throttle when at high speed and without proper use of the clutch no matter which brake you use or do not use will make little difference in the final outcome.

There is a reason why many of the late model sport bikes have slipper clutches...

No reason to parse the statement Noel, it is what it is: an empirical fact.

Regards to all & ride safe,

Midget.

Mike, didn't your Mother tell you "If you can't say something nice about someone..............

Your post says much about you as a motorcyclist, a contributor and a man.

"When debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser" Plato

Noel

[mark1969]

There seems to be lots of appendage swinging on this thread. Bloody Internet forums eh! Nowt to prove here...     

[Mike Ramos]

Good try Noel. 

However, one needs to always consider the source, did not your readings of Plato inform you of that?

Thus safe on all three points that you so vividly point to.  Your futility is only surpassed by your impotency.

Perhaps you may not want to take things so personal; your condescension crossed over to hubris long, long ago.  Smile more often Noel, your lack of humor only validates my original comment.

Alas, in your hurry to [once again] distain & discredit you have ignored the subject: addressing the use of the clutch in hard braking situations.

Why do we not agree on one thing; that is to keep what you my perceive as our non humorous "correspondence" in pm's? 

That said, wishing you and everyone a safe ride,

Mike Ramos.