The future of motorcycling

[ribbert]

Stating that there are "no shortage of Luddites out there (and probably here)" as it pertains to GPS is as pertinent as saying that riding an FJ instead of a modern motorcycle with new technology makes a person a Luddite.

And believing that without a GPS a person is "missing out" on excellent roads and rides, or even secondary roads is not logical , it is ridiculous.

Mike Ramos.

Mike, I gave a little thought to a reply to your post while at work this afternoon ( I didn't expect anyone to respond) but I see it has been pretty much covered.
I don't see any relevance in you FJ analogy. It would be more appropriate if you were comparing 1st gen GPS to current ones.
The FJ is a modern bike.

You may shun the freedom that GPS gives you but to say it's ridiculous is a bit extreme, particularly when you're in the minority.

If you read my post, I did say you could do it with a map but GPS was easier. I used maps for 40 years, perhaps that's why I have embraced the GPS so enthusiastically.

I also said if travelling, you need a map as well but you don't need to consult it constantly.
It has also been my experience that if stored somewhere moderately accessable, maps and road atlas' are water magnets.

No, I have stared at my last ripped, sodden map in the headlight in pouring rain and howling wind with frozen fingers and still ended up flipping a coin because there is no way of determining where I am so the map can't tell me where to go.

It's surprising how many times the GPS tells you to make a turn that is against your gut feel only to find out it was right.

Yes, they occasionally have glitches and don't the Luddites love reciting them. But to someone of moderate intelligence with a dash of common sense, this is not an issue.

What they do is free you from the burden and uncertainty of navigating and leaves you nothing to do but enjoy the ride. I like that.

Once you become accustomed to using one, and stop staring at it the whole time, they actually enhance your riding pleasure.

I have had many a portion of a ride spoilt by fretting over being lost and running out of fuel, not any more.

Noel

[ribbert]

Cap'n,
Have you read Francis Chichester's book, I think it is "The lonely Sea and Sky"
What I enjoyed most was his early days as a pilot and his pioneering work with navigation.
Most people don't realise that sailing was just something he turned to in retirement.
As a sailor and and a reader though, I suspect you might have read it.
Noel

[ribbert]

One thing I HATE about Garmin is by the time I zoom out enough to see the bigger picture, I lose all the good roads.  When zoomed in enough to see the roads I want to see, I can't see enough to find a good route.

I use a combination of maps and Garmin's Mapsource to plan routes.   Unfortunately, Mapsource has the same problem as the GPS software with road resolution.  The Garmin road database leaves a lot to be desired.  If I have a destination without a specific route planned, I find myself fighting with it a lot. 

I think I used the zoom out feature once, that's what maps are for. I don't find it a practical tool for planning.
After entering your destination, do you enter a few towns and intersections as way points so it selects the route you want?

That's why I like to plot routes on Google Maps, then get them into the GPS.

Yep, that's me.

Hello. My name is Dave. I am a Luddite. Not by choice but by circumstance.

Fear not Dave, you can't be a Luddite by circumstance, only choice.

I agree with Mike. 

Hey guy's, we've been here an hour already, anyone seen Mike Ramos or FJ Johnnie?

[Capn Ron]

It's surprising how many times the GPS tells you to make a turn that is against your gut feel only to find out it was right.

Yes, they occasionally have glitches and don't the Luddites love reciting them. But to someone of moderate intelligence with a dash of common sense, this is not an issue.

Noel

Spot-on Noel!  I have said for years, that a good GPS based nav tool COMBINED with a bit of common sense will get you about anywhere.  Leave off the common sense part and you'll find yourself yelling at an inanimate object for no good reason.   

Sailors...scratch that...good sailors will always back up the first location result by using a second method.  Really good sailors will use a third method to verify the first two results.  So, let's say I take a 3-point fix....you sight an object on shore with a handheld compass, then you draw a line on your paper chart from that object going in the direction you noted on your compass.  Okay, so you must be somewhere on that line.  Now you find a second object on shore and repeat the above by drawing a second line.  Where those two lines intersect is your location.  Taking a third sighting makes this a three-point fix and all three lines should intersect on your chart.  Good enough?  Not a chance.  Now you note the depth of water at that location on your chart...If it says you should be in 60 feet of water, verify this with your depth sounder.  If the two agree...(On a high-visibility day), that's typically enough considering these two methods were likely backing up what you've been seeing on your GPS.  On VERY foggy nights...when I couldn't see the crew member on the bow from the helm, I have resorted to dead reckoning my way through...backing that up with GPS AND depth...AND sound.  The breakwater at the entrance of the harbor should be on the port side...do I hear water breaking on the port side?  Check!   

In the early days of GPS, the system was referred to as "differential GPS" where the military would purposely skew the satellite data three times a day!  One minute you think you know where you are on the ocean, next minute you appear 300 yards to the west!!  Good if you're the U.S. military trying to dissuade the use of GPS by an enemy...terrible if you're a sailboat navigating your way through a channel at night in the fog!   

Point is, not one of these methods is 100% reliable and you have to apply common sense and use your best judgement given the situation.  To me, having more information available to make a decision is always a good thing.   

Cap'n Ron. . .

[ribbert]

Cap'n,
Have you read Francis Chichester's book, I think it is "The lonely Sea and Sky"
What I enjoyed most was his early days as a pilot and his pioneering work with navigation.
Most people don't realise that sailing was just something he turned to in retirement.
As a sailor and and a reader though, I suspect you might have read it.
Noel

I also loved this book, it's quite short and you of all people would find it fascinating.



Noel

[Capn Ron]

Thanks for the book recommendations...looks like both of those would be perfect for the next long passage!

"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by" -John Masefield-

Cap'n Ron. . .

[Flynt]

submarines. How in the heck do they navigate......

SINS (Ships Inertial Navigation System) uses some dinky spinning ball bearings levitated magnetically and monitored with lasers in 3 directions...  any acceleration of the boat in any direction is measured and used to correct velocity and the system does a fancy Dead Reckoning for you.  As you move along the small errors in this system build up, leading to a positioning uncertainty represented as a circle around where the SINS says you are.  When this circle gets close to anything you don't want to possibly hit (shallow water, the edge of the "box" USN has given you to stay in, etc), it's time to come to periscope depth and stick your antenna up to get a satellite fix (GPS)...  then you reset SINS and get back to business.

We also had to learn and practice celestial navigation and would use the sighting method Ron describes (through periscope) if we were close enough to land, but general procedure is SINS with a daily satellite fix to shrink the uncertainty circle.

Frank (ex-Submarine Officer)

[movenon]

Thanks for the summary Frank !  Its something I have wondered about.  Flying I understand but being underwater always mystifies me.  So now we are in the box with trench's, mountains, underwater volcano's, misc. crap on the floor, nets and other subs and you don't prong into anything (well, not often)...
My hats off to you Frank    Takes a very special person to stay in one of those tubes...
When in San Diego we often stay at the Sub base in Point Loma. Hard to beat the view.
George

[rlucas]

Another Luddite checking in...and another book recommendation (sort of).

While I use GPS (I've got 3 of 'em, with bike-specific mounts), I much prefer paper maps. The GPS is for telling me WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW. The paper map stays folded and visible in the windowed pocket of my tankbag.

As for the "book recommendation":

DeLorme, and probably others, publishes State Atlases. The state is divided into sections, and shows a great level of detail. Every county road (by number), dinky towns that don't appear on the regular state maps...even every grass landing strip (for those aeronauts among us, and I know there at least a couple). I grew up in an extremely small Illinois town and the Illinois state atlas shows roads around my home town that I had no idea existed. It's made for some very interesting days spent exploring.


Rossi

[Capn Ron]

Another Luddite checking in...and another book recommendation (sort of).

While I use GPS (I've got 3 of 'em, with bike-specific mounts), I much prefer paper maps. The GPS is for telling me WHERE I AM RIGHT NOW. The paper map stays folded and visible in the windowed pocket of my tankbag.

As for the "book recommendation":

DeLorme, and probably others, publishes State Atlases. The state is divided into sections, and shows a great level of detail. Every county road (by number), dinky towns that don't appear on the regular state maps...even every grass landing strip (for those aeronauts among us, and I know there at least a couple). I grew up in an extremely small Illinois town and the Illinois state atlas shows roads around my home town that I had no idea existed. It's made for some very interesting days spent exploring.


Rossi

Rossi,

Great recommendation there!  I have picked up a few of the Delorme Atlas & Gazetteer series for states I've lived in.  They're tailored to outdoor recreation and show amazing detail...Things like topographical lines, old mine locations, 4WD roads and places to camp.  I haven't found a GPS based tool that can represent all this great exploring in that level of detail and usability.

A state road atlas would be great to have...My girl likes to flip though paper maps as we're traveling by car.  She'll often come up with a "Hey, pull off at the next exit...I want to go see something!"

Cap'n Ron. . .

[Capn Ron]

submarines. How in the heck do they navigate......

SINS (Ships Inertial Navigation System) uses some dinky spinning ball bearings levitated magnetically and monitored with lasers in 3 directions...  any acceleration of the boat in any direction is measured and used to correct velocity and the system does a fancy Dead Reckoning for you.  As you move along the small errors in this system build up, leading to a positioning uncertainty represented as a circle around where the SINS says you are.  When this circle gets close to anything you don't want to possibly hit (shallow water, the edge of the "box" USN has given you to stay in, etc), it's time to come to periscope depth and stick your antenna up to get a satellite fix (GPS)...  then you reset SINS and get back to business.

We also had to learn and practice celestial navigation and would use the sighting method Ron describes (through periscope) if we were close enough to land, but general procedure is SINS with a daily satellite fix to shrink the uncertainty circle.

Frank (ex-Submarine Officer)

Yeah, thanks for explaining that...very cool!

I swear the collective knowledge of the members of this board is amazing.  We've got Pilots, divers, mechanics, welders, IT folks, house framers, machinists, ex-military, current military...sub-mariners!!!

As helpful as folks are around here, there should be a non-motorcycle category for "Anyone know how to ______?"  The blank could be anything from fabrication to cooking the perfect ribs.  Note to self:  Pick up ribs.   

Cap'n Ron. . .

[fj johnnie]

 Hey yes I am still lurking here and reading. I have a GPS, and I can read a map. I use both. It's funny to read all the response too. Some like one for this reason and some like something else for another reason. I only agreed with Mike because it doesn't really matter what you use or enjoy using. If you use one or the other I will not call you a Luddite or anything else. When I looked at new GPS unit this past spring, something I could use to plan my trip to Nova Scotia it was impossible to find anyone at any store that had the remotest clue how to operate one of them. My idea was to use  Google maps to plan my route, dragging the trip all over the unique and fun looking roads. Once done I wanted to install that route onto the GPS and go. Unfortunately no one I spoke to had a clue how to do this nor heard of anything that could. So we took a GPS along for all the benefits that they come with. Finding fuel lodging etc. One of the riders on the trip only used maps, one only a GPS. The guy with the map penchant typically found the best roads and had the best sense of direction. The guy leading with the GPS never got lost , but sometimes following it took us to an area ( like Boston) or in a direction that took much longer than the maps guy or locals would use.
  In summary no one is wrong. No one is right. Each offers something unique the other cannot duplicate. Also some will allow their prejudice to help then believe whatever theory they are pre-disposed to believe.

[markmartin]

My idea was to use  Google maps to plan my route, dragging the trip all over the unique and fun looking roads. Once done I wanted to install that route onto the GPS and go. Unfortunately no one I spoke to had a clue how to do this nor heard of anything that could.

There are a few select Garmin models that allow to transfer your home made 'Routes' from the computer to the GPS using MapSource.  MapSource isn't as good as Google (what is??) and it is painstakingly slow to make an interesting 'route---at least for me it is. But I'm getting the hang of it and have found some interesting ways to get from point A to B because of it.  It isn't perfect, but I love the GPS, and yes, I still always bring a map. I've tried it without one--not good.     As mentioned, the Delorme state atlases are hard to beat if you're riding the back roads in the US and compliment the GPS well as many of the interesting roads don't always show up on a regular road atlas.

[FJmonkey]

Errr Ummmm.  Mapquest has a direct link to Garmin devices....

[rktmanfj]

My idea was to use  Google maps to plan my route, dragging the trip all over the unique and fun looking roads. Once done I wanted to install that route onto the GPS and go. Unfortunately no one I spoke to had a clue how to do this nor heard of anything that could.

There are a few select Garmin models that allow to transfer your home made 'Routes' from the computer to the GPS using MapSource.  MapSource isn't as good as Google (what is??) and it is painstakingly slow to make an interesting 'route---at least for me it is. But I'm getting the hang of it and have found some interesting ways to get from point A to B because of it.  It isn't perfect, but I love the GPS, and yes, I still always bring a map. I've tried it without one--not good.     As mentioned, the Delorme state atlases are hard to beat if you're riding the back roads in the US and compliment the GPS well as many of the interesting roads don't always show up on a regular road atlas.

On my Streetpilot 2820, I've had luck in converting Google Maps to .csv or .gpx files and loading them to the GPS.  Problem is, no more often than I do it, I have to relearn the process each time.