I have an FJ with a 2002 FZ1 rear swing arm conversion. The counter shaft sprocket is an offset type that is a quarter inch offset to the factory sprocket. Can anyone tell me how to source a new good quality replacement? The sprocket on it is fine but I am wanting to change from 17 to 18 teeth. It had the 17/44 combo which pulled like a freight train but was spinning at 4100 rpm at 100k, 60 mph. The 44 was replaced with a 39.
A question. During the conversion did you change the output shaft to an XJR unit? 1/4" offset over stock is quiet a bit.
I have a GSXR conversion and used a modified Honda VF 1000 18 tooth front sprocket. The VF 1000 sprocket you will have to grind down the outboard raised boss so the retaining nut will fit back on. A Honda 929RR has the correct spines also but I didn't see one any larger than 17T and be aware it is wider. Out of memory the VF sprocket after the mod off set was around 2mm.
The stock FJ sprocket is 10.8mm overall width
VF 1000 Sprocket 14.5 mm
CBR 929 RR 16.7mm
Probably doesn't help much but that what I know about the front sprocket. I am sure some else that has done the FZ1 conversion will show up shortly. :good2:
Here is the JT sprocket site and the spec's on the VF unit. You can check out the sprocket dimensions / spline spec's etc here and compair it to the FJ spec's http://www.jtsprockets.com/catalogue/model/4845 (http://www.jtsprockets.com/catalogue/model/4845)
Have a good one !
George
No my bike does not have the longer XJR countershaft sprocket. I realize this would be the best solution! I thank you for your help. I don't quite understand exactly what you mean describing the sprocket you are using. I am sure if I saw one it would be clear to me. The existing sprocket is difficult to bolt onto the bike as the socket will not fit into the sprocket. I had to grind one down to fit inside. Also it makes it very difficult to tighten with the bolt with the ears of the lock washer interfering. I hope that once I find an 18 tooth sprocket similar to the one I have now the socket will fir inside it. Making it much easier to tighten properly. I will google the sprockets you told me about to get a clearer picture. ( pardon the pun).KOkaloo John
PBI Sprockets actually has listed on their website a quarter inch off set sprocket available in various tooth counts for around 30 bucks. There are a number of bikes that they fit and the FJ 1200 is one of them. The PO gave me this info. Don't know if it helps any one else out there . Seems like a simple thing to order.
Quote from: fj johnnie on April 21, 2013, 05:17:55 PM
PBI Sprockets actually has listed on their website a quarter inch off set sprocket available in various tooth counts for around 30 bucks. There are a number of bikes that they fit and the FJ 1200 is one of them. The PO gave me this info. Don't know if it helps any one else out there . Seems like a simple thing to order.
The PBI ones look good if you need that much offset. The price is right. If your socket face is ground down you should be able to get a good enough bite on the nut. I think the TQ is only around 60 ft lbs with out looking the exact number up, anyhow 60 - 70 ft pounds.
Good information on the PBI I bookmarked it.
Cheers George
George the sprocket is the same width as stock at the attachment point. Because of this it does not need to be ground down. Unfortunately with a 17 tooth sprocket a socket will not fit inside the chamfered out area. Am I making any sense? I hope the 18 tooth sprocket is large enough in diameter to allow a socket to go inside it. I took a socket and ground it down until it fit inside, for the 17 tooth, however the hole was so small that the lock washer needed to be made smaller as well. Meaning the "ears" where ground down slightly to fit inside the opening. John
I think I am following you OK :good2:. Hoping someone that has done this will show up .
The grinding down was in reference to the 36mm socket. Grinding down the face (the inside beveled area at the entrance of the socket) letting the socket get a full bite on the nut. I see what you had to do in reducing the socket outside circumference. I had to do the same in reference to a BMW RT 100 swingarm. Made it a large thin wall.
I would guess PBI machines all the center's the same. You might sent them an e mail and ask. Or they might have there own lock washer.
Will it clear the cover ? What you are going through is the nature of modifications, I seem to live in that world myself. :dash2: :good:
George
fj johnnie,
On the dragbike I used a 1/4 inch offset sprocket from trac dynamics for an R1. Too expensive in my opinion at $70, but the good news is there are no clearance issues with the countershaft nut. Also only available in 16 and 17 teeth (wasn't an issue for my application!)
Here's a link so you can see the sprocket. Looks like the inside shoulder on the PBI sprocket could be machined to match the shoulder on the trac dynamics sprocket to give needed socket clearance. http://tracstore.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-accessories-1/products/off-set-front-sprockets (http://tracstore.myshopify.com/collections/parts-and-accessories-1/products/off-set-front-sprockets)
Does a thin wall socket fit the PBI sprocket?
Chris W
George I have installed an XJR cover along with the corresponding clutch pushrod and shift shaft. It is 8mm wider and allows plenty of room for the off set sprocket. These parts where purchased from RPM ( who else?) . And yes that is exactly what I meant regarding the grinding. I cant talk without my hands helping.
Chris I did see that they would custom make one for me. Does an R1 sprocket fit the FJ output shaft? It looks similar but.... Thanks for the input though. I realize now that an off set sprocket is more common than I thought. I will need to purchase one and provide some additional info once the sprocket has been ordered and installed, with regards to order number website etc. Thanks again for your help. John
John,
Yes, the R1 countershaft has the same spline pattern. The thickness of the sprocket also works with no issues (can't recall if the shoulder is thicker, thinner or the same) but do remember it fit noproblem.
Chris
I'm wondering if you could drill the c/s nut and shaft and use a cotter of some sort instead of the lockwasher. Just a thought
Arnie
I believe I can supply the sprocket you are looking for. I will research it tomorrow.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: fj johnnie on April 21, 2013, 09:21:36 PM
George I have installed an XJR cover along with the corresponding clutch pushrod and shift shaft. It is 8mm wider and allows plenty of room for the off set sprocket. These parts where purchased from RPM ( who else?) . And yes that is exactly what I meant regarding the grinding. I cant talk without my hands helping.
You telling me ! Half my family is Italian.............. RPM is great. Sounds like you are now making some headway. :bye2:
George
Yes I am George Thanks to both you and Chris. I did not know that an R1 sprocket would fit on an FJ. Perhaps the PBI unit is cheaper than the ones Chris is using. I wonder if the ones Chris is purchasing for the R1 are much better? The sprocket on this bike currently is of very good quality.
I had an FZ 750 with the threads pulled out of the shaft. I am hesitant to use something that I am not 100 % on. So the idea of a cotter pin set up would worry me. Also is the shaft not extremely difficult to drill? JOhn
TRAC Dynamics said they can do an 18 tooth offset sprocket - for $89 and 3 weeks time. Ouch!
I'd like to see what Randy comes up with -- wonder if you can find a nut with the same thread but would fit a smaller wrench/socket?
I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the tab washer. The primary function is more to provide a flat washer between the bearing surfaces of the nut and the sprocket then it is to prevent a loss of clamp load. Clean the threads of the nut and the shaft carefully with contact cleaner, brake clean or Loctite primer and use either Loctite threadlocker #271 or #262 when you torque the nut down.
I would still use the tab washer and even fold it over because it can't hurt but I place a lot more faith in loctite rather then a cheap soft washer.
As far as the socket is concerned I would turn the outer diameter down on the lathe to allow it to fit. If you don't have a lathe ask your neighbor. Any machine shop can do this in less then 5 min.
Hein.
Thanks Hein! I already made a socket to fit. Used a bench grinder to mill it down so it just fits inside. Once you pointed out that you put more faith in thread lock than the washer I realized that the washer probably provides not much more than peace of mind. It will however fit with a little modification so I will continue to use it. Randy is getting a sprocket for me.
Hein you dirty bastard!!! What is your status for the WCR???
And good advice on locking washer vs. thread lock. I would still put my money on the tabbed washer but thread lock tech is really good these days....
Quote from: hein on April 23, 2013, 12:09:32 PM
I would still use the tab washer and even fold it over because it can't hurt but I place a lot more faith in loctite rather then a cheap soft washer.
Hein.
Not sure I share you confidence in loctite for that application, but what's wrong with the washer. Have you ever seen one fail?
Noel
Thanks George. I just ordered 2 VF1000 sprockets one 17t and one 18t JT sprockets. For $33 shipped off amazon. Can you run the original cover with them? Right now my gsxr wheel is just a little under 1/8"to off of center to the right That 2mm of offset would make it almost perfect.
Oh yah and thanks for the link to the cbr forum for the f4i shock springs. I just ordered all the stuff to put the eibach 900 and spring on.
Hi Noel.
Like you I've been a mechanic for most of my working life and like you have seen a fair number of locking devices. I can't say I've ever seen one fail in this particular application but I have seen them fail in a number of others. To me tab and key washers were designed more to prevent a bolt or nut from "walking off" after losing the clamp load, similar to safety wire. Now if the clamp load is lost and adding enough cyclic stress I think the nut could make short work of the soft metal tab on the tab washer. The obvious goal is to prevent loss of clamp load and to that end I use locktite to better the odds. Even though I question the effectivenes of these washers I still use them.
No facts, just my opinion.
Hein.
Good afternoon Mark.
If the lockwasher your refering to is the standard split type I'm not a big fan. The amount of force or load needed to compress it is considerably lower than the required torque value of the fastener in most cases. To me at least you end up with a flat washer thats already broken. I do use internal and external tooth washers on small and low torque applications like electrical grounds. For bolt and nut applications I prefer locknuts or jamnuts along with flat washers on the load bearing surfaces. If paranoia strikes me I might add a drop or two of locktite. On bolts going into a threaded component I use whats appropriate, oil on threads, antiseize, locktite or whatever special methods are needed.
Have a close look at your FJ engine and tell me how many split type lockwashers you find.
Again, just an opinion.
Hein.
Quote from: hein on April 24, 2013, 05:51:31 PM
Good afternoon Mark.
If the lockwasher your refering to is the standard split type I'm not a big fan. The amount of force or load needed to compress it is considerably lower than the required torque value of the fastener in most cases. To me at least you end up with a flat washer thats already broken. I do use internal and external tooth washers on small and low torque applications like electrical grounds. For bolt and nut applications I prefer locknuts or jamnuts along with flat washers on the load bearing surfaces. If paranoia strikes me I might add a drop or two of locktite. On bolts going into a threaded component I use whats appropriate, oil on threads, antiseize, locktite or whatever special methods are needed.
Have a close look at your FJ engine and tell me how many split type lockwashers you find.
Again, just an opinion.
Hein.
Well hell then, try this: http://www.nord-lock.com/, (http://www.nord-lock.com/,) Nord-Lock Demonstration Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgwmuZuJ02I#)
Hi Mark.
I watched the vidio on the nord-lock system. It seems to me that its a variation , albeit newer, of the Schnorr washer. I would say that in certain applications it would be a reasonable solution but in some it would be doomed to failure.
Opinion only.
Hein.
Quote from: hein on April 24, 2013, 07:07:46 PM
Hi Mark.
I watched the vidio on the nord-lock system. It seems to me that its a variation , albeit newer, of the Schnorr washer. I would say that in certain applications it would be a reasonable solution but in some it would be doomed to failure.
Opinion only.
Hein.
Then PM me so we can discuss, sounds interesting....
Quote from: hein on April 24, 2013, 05:51:31 PM
Good afternoon Mark.
If the lockwasher your refering to is the standard split type I'm not a big fan. The amount of force or load needed to compress it is considerably lower than the required torque value of the fastener in most cases. To me at least you end up with a flat washer thats already broken. I do use internal and external tooth washers on small and low torque applications like electrical grounds. For bolt and nut applications I prefer locknuts or jamnuts along with flat washers on the load bearing surfaces. If paranoia strikes me I might add a drop or two of locktite. On bolts going into a threaded component I use whats appropriate, oil on threads, antiseize, locktite or whatever special methods are needed.
Have a close look at your FJ engine and tell me how many split type lockwashers you find.
Again, just an opinion.
Hein.
Hein, I agree that force required to compress a spring / split washer is generally lower than the torque value of the fastener. As long as the washer is harder than the nut /bolt it will gouge the underside of the head and create a lip that stops the bolt turning. Haven't you ever nicked your finger on that burr on a nut that has had a spring washer on it?
It is also common after cracking a nut with a spring washer on it for it to drag for the first half turn until the washer is unloaded.
This of course only works if spring washers are treated as a single use item which nobody does, including me.
Loctite is brilliant and I use it on some combinations of thread pitch / vibration / torque but not very often. I don't see the need to fix a problem that isn't there.
The only vehicles I ever see that have a problem with loosening nut and bolts are those with rigid mounted motors and even then it is usually peripheral stuff that comes loose. Once tightened properly these are rarely recurring.
Early VW's had a problem with heads coming loose and it was fixed with a kit (form VW) that was simply new studs with a different thread pitch.
The only place I use it on the FJ is the brake rotors and the bolts that join the lower rails to the frame at the back. They seem prone to both coming loose and shearing. I have put high tensile bolts in there.
Mostly, manufacturers get it right when designing fasteners and until a problem presents itself I see no need to improve on it.
Noel
Quote from: FJmonkey on April 24, 2013, 07:46:10 PM
Quote from: hein on April 24, 2013, 07:07:46 PM
Hi Mark.
I watched the vidio on the nord-lock system. It seems to me that its a variation , albeit newer, of the Schnorr washer. I would say that in certain applications it would be a reasonable solution but in some it would be doomed to failure.
Opinion only.
Hein.
Then PM me so we can discuss, sounds interesting....
noooooooooo discuss it in public so I can sit down with a beer and learn something (popcorn)
Yes, the first time I opened up the c/s cover after buying it with a bit over 35K kms, the nut was loose on the shaft and the c/s cover was keeping it and the c/s sprocket from coming off. The tab washer did have the tabs bent, but it was not evident if they had been bent over tightly, nor do I know what torque the nut was tightened to.
So, this may have been a tab washer failure, or it could have been an inept mechanic.
I have had no problem with loose c/s sprockets since, and do use the tab washer.
Arnie
Quote from: ribbert on April 24, 2013, 06:22:06 AM
Quote from: hein on April 23, 2013, 12:09:32 PM
I would still use the tab washer and even fold it over because it can't hurt but I place a lot more faith in loctite rather then a cheap soft washer.
Hein.
Not sure I share you confidence in loctite for that application, but what's wrong with the washer. Have you ever seen one fail?
Noel
Noel, the usefulness of a split lockwasher is a subject of endless debate and probably interesting over a bottle of single malt. Yes I've been bitten by the burr under the face of a bolt and nut on more than a few occassions. I agree that locking devices such as the split washers and many others should be one time use only. Treat them like condoms, use once and dispose.
Mark, I'll send you my expanded view of the Nord-Lock system this weekend.
Arnie, from my view you encountered two failures. Loss of clamp load and a tab washer failure.
Hein.
Hein I have had the same experience. Removed the countershaft cover to find a loose sprocket. Tabs on the washer had not held the nut tight. You are correct in that it is not designed to secure clamp load. Because of this I am more cautious about ensuring it does not come loose. The inside of my sprocket cover was chewed by the sprocket. A little disconcerting to say the least. I had not ridden it yet. Thank goodness.