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Well, ma Mama always told me not to speak ill of the dead, but in Maggie Thatchers case, I can't help myself.
I know it's wrong and I feel slightly guilty, but way back then in those 'colorful' eighties, she was despised by working class folk across the land. (see the film Billy Elliot for the vibe of the moment).
I still have a court summons for not paying the grossly unfair poll tax - maybe i'll get it framed.
Oddly enough, I left England to go traveling the day she resigned from office. Friends rang me up and said 'she's stood down, you don't have to go now.'
Even more oddly, she died on my Birthday.
Andy

Quote from: andyoutandabout on April 08, 2013, 08:30:16 PM
Well, ma Mama always told me not to speak ill of the dead, but in Maggie Thatchers case, I can't help myself.
I know it's wrong and I feel slightly guilty, but way back then in those 'colorful' eighties, she was despised by working class folk across the land. (see the film Billy Elliot for the vibe of the moment).
I still have a court summons for not paying the grossly unfair poll tax - maybe i'll get it framed.
Oddly enough, I left England to go traveling the day she resigned from office. Friends rang me up and said 'she's stood down, you don't have to go now.'
Even more oddly, she died on my Birthday.
Andy

Well happy birthday Andy.......here's a song just for you....and the late Maggie.......rip

Mama - Mama Tour - 1984 - Genesis - HQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbO6aKayNIA#)

CanDman

She was despised because she broke the Unions, and privatized government held assets.  I personally think Maggy Thatcher was one of a few reason that Great Britain is not today called just Britain. 

Dan   

Can't say I know much about her but it's pretty clear from this article that she was not well thought of.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html)

You really had to live under 'the iron ladies' heel to understand the impact this woman (and her government) had on the working/middle class people!!! She was the U K's Nero...closed the coal mines and imported coal from Poland!! Closed the shipyards and had both merchant and Royal Navy ships built in Korea!! Waved good bye to the utilities...Water and Hydro sold off to the highest foreign bidders...as she fiddled and f****d around ... :diablo: :mad: :ireful:

I could go on but... :bomb:

The one thing that I did admire about her was she did have the balls of her convictions...be she right or wrong!!!...just ask the Argies!!!

John...expat happily living in Canada :good2:

Quote from: movenon on April 09, 2013, 11:25:02 PM
Can't say I know much about her but it's pretty clear from this article written by left wingers at the daily mail that like to state opinion as fact,  that she was not well thought of by left wing idiots.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2306165/Margaret-Thatcher-death-parties-The-Lefts-sick-celebration-Brixtons-streets.html)

There, I fixed it for ya. 

She was at least as polarizing as was Reagan, those that did not like her, were vehement about it -as evidenced by the article you posted. 

Dan   

Quote from: Tiger on April 10, 2013, 06:07:39 AM
You really had to live under 'the iron ladies' heel to understand the impact this woman (and her government) had on the working/middle class people!!! She was the U K's Nero...closed the state owned and unprofitable/ bloated coal mines and imported coal from Poland!! Closed the state owned and unprofitable/ bloated shipyards and had both merchant and Royal Navy ships built in Korea!! Waved good bye to the state owned and unprofitable/ bloated utilities...Water and Hydro sold off to the highest foreign bidders...as she fiddled and f****d around ... :diablo: :mad: :ireful:

I could go on but... :bomb:

The one thing that I did admire about her was she did have the balls of her convictions...be she right or wrong!!!...just ask the Argies!!!

John...expat happily living in Canada :good2:

There, I fixed it for you.

Oh, and if it were not for her, you'd all be bailing out Greece, (and Italy, and Spain -just you watch) because you'd all be a part of the miserable experiment that is the Euro common currency. 

Dan 

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 10, 2013, 10:23:28 AM

Quote from: Tiger on April 10, 2013, 06:07:39 AM
You really had to live under 'the iron ladies' heel to understand the impact this woman (and her government) had on the working/middle class people!!! She was the U K's Nero...closed the state owned and unprofitable/ bloated coal mines and imported coal from Poland!! Closed the state owned and unprofitable/ bloated shipyards and had both merchant and Royal Navy ships built in Korea!! Waved good bye to the state owned and unprofitable/ bloated utilities...Water and Hydro sold off to the highest foreign bidders...as she fiddled and f****d around ... :diablo: :mad: :ireful:

I could go on but... :bomb:

The one thing that I did admire about her was she did have the balls of her convictions...be she right or wrong!!!...just ask the Argies!!!

John...expat happily living in Canada :good2:

There, I fixed it for you.

Oh, and if it were not for her, you'd all be bailing out Greece, (and Italy, and Spain -just you watch) because you'd all be a part of the miserable experiment that is the Euro common currency. 

Dan 

You know something Dan....... I always thought that Cliff Claven was just an actor......but he's real. I had know idea just how informed you were....I must say.......I love your integrity and focus for the truth !!!  :hi:

C(cliff)man

Noticeable that none of us Brits on here have commented..........it's just too contentious an issue. There's always two sides to anything like this, good and bad. The anti's will take this as an opportunity to insult her memory/actions/family and the supporters will largely keep their own counsel.

Personally, although I lived through it too, it's now history- let it lie.  :flag_of_truce:

Political leaders with the balls to do what NEEDS to be done are rare and never popular. If your business / country is going to the wall and the previous management has allowed it to get to crisis point, drastic measures are required and that always pisses people off. People believe governments are bottomless pits and can't go broke although the Greeks may not agree with that.

With decades since to appraise the effects of her reforms the general consensus is that if she had not taken the initiative with her reforms and had the nerve to see it through Britain would have been in terrible shape and probably still would be.
What she did not only took enormous strength but showed great vision.
Politicians the world over govern with one eye on re election at the expense of good management. Telling the voters what they want hear, giving the voters what they want, even if there is no money to pay for it and allowing renegade groups to hold the country to ransom.  A succession of these governments do long lasting damage to an economy until a Thatcher comes along as says "enough," we can fix it but it's going to be tough and everyone's fine with that until it affects them.
Certain demographics fixate on that detail and lose sight of or don't understand the big picture.
There was also her role in ending the Cold War, a world changing achievement.

Think I'll go with the Mail on this.
Or the overwhelming public comments with 10K plus ratings.
Or the fact I too lived through it, to fight another day, fortunately in another country, like a load of other expats who saw the writing on the wall.
Andy

See, I even figured out how to do a poll. Obviously option 3 is just a regulation, so don't get side tracked by that.
Make your voices heard.
Andy

I'm fine with others having a different take on things.  It does not bother me a bit that other think she was not great, or even 'horrible' or whatever.  Where I do have an issue with is how it's seemingly ALWAYS the left that has the folks that feel free to stray far from good taste.  Dance on someone's grave anyone?  

When Bill Clinton (the darling of the left) dies, watch how viciously ANYONE who says a bad thing about him, gets shouted down and counter-attacked.  Seemingly, it's allowable to stray from good taste and decorum, only if your celebrating the death of a conservative.  Drives me up the wall.

Carry on, be of poor taste, it's on you folks!

Dan

 

Saw this, thought of this thread...

(http://img.laughload.com/laugh/image/cho/choose-your-story-lx32hdpo.jpg)

I was too young to understand the ramifications of what her actions did but my parents remeber!!  My dad was a lorry mechanic and saw lots of changes, most of which were not positives.  She had those who thought she was great (generally those who stood to make money from her actions) and those who hated her (everyone else!).

But she did pave the way for the uk and particularly London to become arguably the most desirable financial capital of the world.

The poll tax thing is a bit of a joke.  Since then far worse and far more crippling taxes have been introduced but because they give it a fluffy name like (national insurance - a massive percentage of which is actually just a tax) and spin it in such a way that it convinces most people it goes on health care and pensions, nobody even raises an eyebrow.  Yet back in the day there were all sorts of riots (I do remember some of those!)

Given that she was the first elected women leader of country she did pave the way for others.  It was argued she had bigger nuts than most of the men in her government!

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 09, 2013, 03:43:10 PM
I personally think Maggy Thatcher was one of a few reason that Great Britain is not today called just Britain. 

Dan   

Britain is still GREAT, we just don't feel the need to shout about it so much these days! times are hard and all that.  That and the fact that declining education standards mean that many citizens now struggle to write and spell such long werds!!!

She was well known as a dictator by her cabinet ministers...which reminded me of this joke from that era:

Maggie and her ministers are sitting at a table in a posh restaurant being served lunch.

The meat has been served and the waitress says to Maggie, "should I serve the vegetables priminister"

to which Maggie replies, "No, let them serve themselves dear"!!! :rofl2: :rofl: :lol:... :biggrin:

John.

Quote from: Tiger on April 11, 2013, 08:58:59 PM
She was well known as a dictator by her cabinet ministers

Yeah, you want a push-over as the head of state.  Brilliant!

Dan

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:13:57 AM

Quote from: Tiger on April 11, 2013, 08:58:59 PM
She was well known as a dictator by her cabinet ministers

Yeah, you want a push-over as the head of state.  Brilliant!

Dan

I don't have a super in depth knowledge of her, mostly drive by factoids.. but she did help Regan tighten the screws on the Russians (who btw coined 'the iron lady' ) leading to their collapse and she did beat back the unions.  Both good things in my book.

Really the organized labor litmus test is the most telling IMO.  If they hate you, you probably did right by the rest of the country..

Quote from: ddlewis on April 12, 2013, 11:32:41 AM

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:13:57 AM

Quote from: Tiger on April 11, 2013, 08:58:59 PM
She was well known as a dictator by her cabinet ministers

Yeah, you want a push-over as the head of state.  Brilliant!

Dan

I don't have a super in depth knowledge of her, mostly drive by factoids.. but she did help Regan tighten the screws on the Russians (who btw coined 'the iron lady' ) leading to their collapse and she did beat back the unions.  Both good things in my book.

Really the organized labor litmus test is the most telling IMO.  If they hate you, you probably did right by the rest of the country..

Due to our company struggling to meet it's financial targets last year they asked the employees to take a week of unpaid leave. The CEO of our parent company earned $106M last year in salary and bonuses. So, although I'm not a big fan of the unions, I'm not much of a fan for big business either. And it seems to me that the polititions on the left pander to the Unions whereas the polititions on the right pander to big business, or as they like to call themselves, the "job creators". Whatever happened to the middle?

Zwartie

[/quote]

Due to our company struggling to meet it's financial targets last year they asked the employees to take a week of unpaid leave. The CEO of our parent company earned $106M last year in salary and bonuses. So, although I'm not a big fan of the unions, I'm not much of a fan for big business either. And it seems to me that the polititions on the left pander to the Unions whereas the polititions on the right pander to big business, or as they like to call themselves, the "job creators". Whatever happened to the middle?

Zwartie
[/quote]

Geez, In the middle.... Why in the heck would you want to be reasonable....
George

Quote from: ddlewis on April 12, 2013, 11:32:41 AM

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:13:57 AM

Quote from: Tiger on April 11, 2013, 08:58:59 PM
She was well known as a dictator by her cabinet ministers

Yeah, you want a push-over as the head of state.  Brilliant!

Dan

I don't have a super in depth knowledge of her, mostly drive by factoids.. but she did help Regan tighten the screws on the Russians (who btw coined 'the iron lady' ) leading to their collapse and she did beat back the unions.  Both good things in my book.

Really the organised labour litmus test is the most telling IMO.  If they hate you, you probably did right by the rest of the country..

You're not a coal miners daughter,eh.

You're not a coal miners daughter,eh.
[/quote]



come on mate......bend the elbow and stop drinking with the flies!!!! No one hears a Galah...... we listen to you grizzle  :ireful: on about how you have to make a crust......... not so long ago you pointed percy at the porcelain "hole diggers" who promoted you to colonel Kurtz out there in Back o'Bourke. Being a champion whinge takes years of practise.....give the other yobbos a chance to catch up....... would ya ??  


canyabberyakka2man

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:13:57 AM
Yeah, you want a push-over as the head of state.  Brilliant!

Dan

Hmmmm, read through but couldn't find any mention of that Dan. However, no I wouldn't...

Dan, unless you lived under this woman's rule, you, like many, have absolutely no idea what life was like in the U K during her reign. The rich got waaaay richer and the poor made poorer due to industry closures. Each coal mine or ship yard, etc, that closed caused a ripple effect throughout a region. Directly as of plants closing, others, such as suppliers down to the corner store, closed and put more people out of work. Whole communities became major unemployment area's overnight. I agree that badly run, under achieving companies needed to change up or close...even state run industries. However, the cost, economicly and socially was devastating to whole regions of the U K.
Yes Thatcher certainly looked after her own...the business people who funneled funds in to the Conservative party...and she happily f****d the rest of us!!!
So please, stop the condescending rhetoric as you have no idea what so ever of the pain and suffering many of us went through because of her!!!
I'm not sad at her passing and certainly would not shed a tear for her. However, I do not agree with some of the nastiness that's coming out about her death.

John.

Smaller governments are better than bigger governments.  Maggie made the government smaller.

Unions had their purpose, but more recently, have become the problem -I know of what I speak here.  Maggie broke the unions.

She was ruthless, and pissed off a lot of Brits, clearly yourself included.  But no matter what, I do not think it's right to dance on anyone's grave.  It's distasteful and beneath anyone that considers themselves an adult. 

When Bin Laden was killed, I did not celebrate it, and I felt ashamed of the monkeys in NY and elsewhere that openly celebrated in the streets.  It appeared to me a bit too much like what you might see in down-town Tehran proudly beamed throughout the middle east on al jazeera.  I did not mourn the man's death, he needed killing, but I certainly did not celebrate it. 

My god people, she is DEAD.  If you can not say something nice, stuff a sock in it, or prove yourself an idiot undeserving of respect from fellow adults.

Dan

Quote from: Tiger on April 12, 2013, 09:47:25 PM
Yes Thatcher certainly looked after her own...the business people who funneled funds in to the Conservative party...and she happily f****d the rest of us!!!
John.

John, the notion that the leader of political party in a modern democracy would screw the entire country just to line the pockets of the few that contributed financially is hard to swallow.

With decades to evaluate her reforms even some of her detractors at the time now begrudgingly admit it needed to be done.

Why not direct some of you bitterness to the governments that allowed things to get that bad rather than at the one that fixed it.


Better a winning preemptive strike on the economy with casualties than sitting around in you comfort zone waiting for complete annihilation.

Noel

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:22:17 PM
Smaller governments are better than bigger governments.  Maggie made the government smaller.

Unions had their purpose, but more recently, have become the problem -I know of what I speak here.  Maggie broke the unions.

She was ruthless, and pissed off a lot of Brits, clearly yourself included.  But no matter what, I do not think it's right to dance on anyone's grave.  It's distasteful and beneath anyone that considers themselves an adult. 

When Bin Laden was killed, I did not celebrate it, and I felt ashamed of the monkeys in NY and elsewhere that openly celebrated in the streets.  It appeared to me a bit too much like what you might see in down-town Tehran proudly beamed throughout the middle east on al jazeera.  I did not mourn the man's death, he needed killing, but I certainly did not celebrate it. 

My god people, she is DEAD.  If you can not say something nice, stuff a sock in it, or prove yourself an idiot undeserving of respect from fellow adults.

Dan

+1

Quote from: The General on April 13, 2013, 01:06:35 AM

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:22:17 PM
Smaller governments are better than bigger governments.  Maggie made the government smaller.

Unions had their purpose, but more recently, have become the problem -I know of what I speak here.  Maggie broke the unions.

She was ruthless, and pissed off a lot of Brits, clearly yourself included.  But no matter what, I do not think it's right to dance on anyone's grave.  It's distasteful and beneath anyone that considers themselves an adult. 

When Bin Laden was killed, I did not celebrate it, and I felt ashamed of the monkeys in NY and elsewhere that openly celebrated in the streets.  It appeared to me a bit too much like what you might see in down-town Tehran proudly beamed throughout the middle east on al jazeera.  I did not mourn the man's death, he needed killing, but I certainly did not celebrate it. 

My god people, she is DEAD.  If you can not say something nice, stuff a sock in it, or prove yourself an idiot undeserving of respect from fellow adults.

Dan

+1

+1

We will have our turn soon enough (I hope). Since we are rapidly turning into an unsustainable welfare state, someone will need to come along and re-direct the country and a lot of people will have some hard times.  It's either that, or we all go down the tubes when everything crashes.

We need a Margaret Thatcher! Barry and Hillary and their type sure as hell aren't going to get us turned around.

Quote from: bugboy on April 13, 2013, 09:23:12 AM
We will have our turn soon enough (I hope).

We need a Margaret Thatcher! Barry and Hillary and their type sure as hell aren't going to get us turned around.

I agree.  But I have become fairly disillusioned in that I'm not sure we'll ever get another true cost cutter.  Whereas the dems have their social welfare/ give everyone a hug, the republicans are not much better with their military industrial complex spending. Either way we spend money we do not have and the debt goes up.

All this nonsense about the sequester?  It's a reduction of some the increases over last year's spending (we're still, even with the sequester, spending more than last year!!) And this was a battle-royal.  We are wending our way towards being a Greece, on a global scale, and I do not see much hope that the idiots in Washington get it. 

Take a look at this:  http://www.usdebtclock.org/ (http://www.usdebtclock.org/)

See that we are accumulating debt at ~$25K per second // $1.5 million per minute // $90 million per hour // $2.1 billion per day... and this does not include the $121 trillion in unfunded liabilities, state pensions etc etc.   

It's maddening, and we go on and on about the impact of the sequester??!! 

I was at a conference where Robert Riech spoke as a key note speaker.  He actually said the our current debt (as a percentage of GDP) is no gig deal 'per se'!! This by the way, was same shit Terry, from this list used to say.  Riech's recommendation was to spend more!  Government spending was the answer you see!  I wanted to yell at him, in front of the other 1,000 people I was in the room with, but I refrained.  These folks are died in the wool. 

The fact is that the CBO is now projecting the US Debt (again, NOT including the unfunded liabilities!) as a percentage of GDP will reach 199% in less than 25 years -we're currently at about 105% and rising quickly).  As reference, the highest Greece ever got was 170%

Maggie had the clarity to see Britain was heading in the wrong direction, and took bold steps to correct it. None of our leaders seems to be able to see that -amazingly. Many of those affected by Maggies corrections, hated her for it.  But Britain would, from where I sit, be in ~Greece's place now, were it not for her. Others can and will certainly, speculate otherwise.   

I worry about the quality of life my children will have, I truly do.

Dan     

I see the same symptoms of the crash of 2008 coming again. Stock market is inflated to record highs, banks loosening up lending requirements allowing loans to unqualified people, housing prices are starting to skyrocket. (at least here in SoCal) But yet, the economy is listless. Job reports are stagnant and inflation is dramatically outpacing income.  :bomb:

If something doesn't happen and soon, there will be another bubble just like in 2008. Only this time, the Government will not have the funds to support another TARP. Those that are too big to fail, will fail this time as there will be no funds to prop them back up again.

I pray for our country.  

CraigO

Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 12, 2013, 10:22:17 PM
But no matter what, I do not think it's right to dance on anyone's grave.  It's distasteful and beneath anyone that considers themselves an adult. 
Dan

I do agree with you 100%...

Quote from: ribbert on April 12, 2013, 11:44:03 PM
With decades to evaluate her reforms even some of her detractors at the time now begrudgingly admit it needed to be done.
Why not direct some of you bitterness to the governments that allowed things to get that bad rather than at the one that fixed it.
Better a winning preemptive strike on the economy with casualties than sitting around in you comfort zone waiting for complete annihilation.

Noel

Noel...I do agree that a lot was wrong BEFORE she took over...and that, sadly, people would have to suffer to put things back on track again. However, it will never stop the bitterness one feels when you see your family and friends pulled apart and in some cases, destroyed because of the economic measures brought in during this period!!! I can forgive but cannot forget.....

John.

Quote from: craigo on April 13, 2013, 10:44:14 AM
I see the same symptoms of the crash of 2008 coming again. Stock market is inflated to record highs, banks loosening up lending requirements allowing loans to unqualified people, housing prices are starting to skyrocket. (at least here in SoCal) But yet, the economy is listless. Job reports are stagnant and inflation is dramatically outpacing income.  :bomb:

If something doesn't happen and soon, there will be another bubble just like in 2008. Only this time, the Government will not have the funds to support another TARP. Those that are too big to fail, will fail this time as there will be no funds to prop them back up again.

I pray for our country.  

CraigO

Me to........... same old shit.  :morning1:  

Not to change the subject, but consider what would happen if N. Korea pops one off. China side's with N Korea, Japan and the US band together and the food fight starts.

Now all parts, pieces, and products from China, Japan, and Korea all dry up to zero or highly inflated prices (supply and demand). Considering that most of our "stuff" is from over there it could get interesting.

Might be a whole bunch of new start up manufacturing here..... In the end I would hope that we would learn a lesson about depending so on much stuff made outside of the U.S..
George

Quote from: movenon on April 13, 2013, 11:01:43 AM

Not to change the subject, but consider what would happen if N. Korea pops one off. China side's with N Korea, Japan and the US band together and the food fight starts.

Now all parts, pieces, and products from China, Japan, and Korea all dry up to zero or highly inflated prices (supply and demand). Considering that most of our "stuff" is from over there it could get interesting.

George

A staggering one third of all the worlds manufactured goods now come out China. They cannot afford to lose that market. I would think it was more important to them than us.  We would eventually work our way around the loss of supply but they would have no where to go. They open power stations at the rate of one a week and ADD to the the existing power grid each year the TOTAL output of the US. Having their industry fall idle would destroy the country. If push came to shove I think their decision would have to be an economic one and their old pals, North Korea, might find themselves out in the cold.

Let's hope all this just remains speculation.

Noel

I agree, China has a big stake in this little tantrum. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that someday N. Korea is going to make a move. When I was in Osan AFB and we were generically referred to as a "speed bump"... That whole North area is very strange. A whole country of brain washed suicidal people and they are cornered.
George

North Korea is controlled by China. If China wants to send message just don't turn on the lights. A large part of the power comes from China.

Reagan and Thatcher were not perfect but they changed the world, hopefully for the better, who knows how things would have turned out if not for them. Maybe much worse? I am glad we did not half to find out. Change is hard, almost no one likes it but some times it's necessary. I am sorry for anyone who was hurt by there policies, some of us are going through this right now. Let us not forget them!


Kurt     

QuoteJohn, the notion that the leader of political party in a modern democracy would screw the entire country just to line the pockets of the few that contributed financially is hard to swallow.

I'm sorry, you must not know anything about our houses of Congress... Our democracy has been completely compromised by lobbyists. And I mean, completely.

This video gives the picture:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html (http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_the_republic_we_must_reclaim.html)