Well. Bike was doing 'stable' ok, when a new symptom appeared: it seemed my charging system might not be working. Why? Starter would try to start, but would sound too weak to turn over.
However, the bike would be push-startable. After another day or two, couldn't even pushstart.
Took battery in. Charged it overnight. Rode it (I think I pushstarted it, I usually push start it lately since I've never gone in and properly resolved that started button issue; for a while, the starter button worked almost every time, now it seems to almost never work). Was keeping check of the battery. Realized that as long as I was push starting, the battery could take a day or two without being charged. (A bit odd? Intermittent charging problem?)
Then after a few days, one day, having come off the charger that morning, turned the key on the bike, and all the lights that came on were incredibly dim. Battery already dead? Odd....
Leave battery charging for a few hours. (.75 amp charger, for those who are wondering, the smallest of motorcycle trickle chargers, on an AGM battery that was purchased last November). Battery charger says fully charged.
Put battery in bike. It's as if it hasn't charged at all. Still equally dim lights.
Ah ha! The battery must be bad!
Take it back to autozone. Alas, their warranty is only 90 days, I've just missed the window that closed end of January. (I really am not going to buy batteries at autozone anymore, I tell myself.)
But they say 'let us check it out, put it on a trickle charger of our own, test it.' So I do. Later that evening, they give it back, and say it is holding voltage at 13.4, and should be fully charged. Seems to be a good battery.
I pop it in the bike. No difference in symptoms. Now my first thought was that Autozone's systems can make mistakes. So I go to get a charged car battery, get some jumper cables, and connect it.
Same symptom.
So something is wrong with the bike's electrical, and I've been barking up the wrong tree all along.
The 'lock handlebars right and lights shut off and/or the bike dies and/or the fuel+oil lights come on like when you press the starter button' weirdness has continued to exist since the last thread, and for the life of me I have not been able to trace it, by the way--though, currently, with dim lights, I get no effect from locking the handlebars right. (It always was a little bit intermittent of an issue.)
Anyone have any idea of where to start? I finally got a trailer and brought it home to work on. Don't know where to start.
Kyle,
I would "start" by checking the two (2) grounding points.
Begin by removing the one attached to the negative post of the battery, and checking it for continuity and resistance. Clean any crud from where it connects, and reattach.
Check the second one that's attached to the frame, up near the coils. (You might have to remove some stuff to get to this one.)
That's how I'd begin.
Steve
Quote from: fintip on March 24, 2013, 10:58:51 AM
The 'lock handlebars right and lights shut off and/or the bike dies and/or the fuel+oil lights come on like when you press the starter button' weirdness has continued to exist since the last thread, and for the life of me I have not been able to trace it, by the way--though, currently, with dim lights, I get no effect from locking the handlebars right. (It always was a little bit intermittent of an issue.)
Anyone have any idea of where to start?
Yea, start there^^ You've had this problem before and you did not fix it, and it's not going to fix itself.
There are wires which move when you turn your handle bars back and forth, start there. Pay attention to the 2 wires that go down to your horn. One of them could be grounding out draining your battery. It just takes a small abrasion on the wire's insulation rubbing on the steering neck to be a problem.
You have to be methodical and through. Point A to point B. Any wires that move with your handle bars are suspect. You have buggered your start button so before you buy another switch assembly, wire in a remote start button and use that to start your bike. That way you can rule out any shenanigans caused by your faulty start switch.
If you didn't fix the dead short you reported having the from the 'first' electrical problem you had, then it's still the same problem.
Go back to that thread and take the good advice you were given there.
Use all the voodoo and guesswork you like, it's no replacement for assessing what you've got. Measure things, inspect things, and so on. Most problems are relatively easy to suss if you've got the chops to tell what's happening. Finding a problem doesn't mean that you've found the problem either, frequently there are several.
Life has been hectic.
Far from ignoring advice, I just didn't know what angle to attack.
After these posts, I went ahead and made a list summing up all the responses from here and the other thread, and from reading here and the manual:
----
-Check main grounds
--Resistance of battery cable
--ground near coils on frame
-Check horn wire insulation?
-"Turn handlebars right, see which wires are bundling/tightening/coming against the frame."
-Starter button wires should be suspect
-Regulator is suspect because of bulbs (except that ground cable was likely cause in my case)
-Relay unit--wiring connecting to it was effie's problem
-Fuse box wires/mount (another person's issue)
-Ignition switch (same as last)
----
So, two things. First, my battery is, after all, truly dead (now showing one volt, after being very misleading and tricky multiple times on multiple chargers).
So I got a new battery. This time one from Batteries plus, $105 after tax, AGM (sealed), and with a TWO YEAR WARRANTY. Not a crappy 90 day warranty like the one that just died from Autozone, which I purchased last November.
Second, I caught it overcharging at 18 volts, so it seems the regulator/rectifier is shot, which is probably what killed the battery.
Looking to buy a new one, and it's unclear what I am supposed to buy... Any advice on getting one? I see regulators and rectifiers being sold separately, which is strange, because I always thought they were bundled up as a single unit. More confusing, the halves each don't cost much less than a single unit.
I saw one listed (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ricks-Motorsports-Regulator-Fits-Yamaha-FJ1200-1988-1992-/330900706919?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0b381667&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ricks-Motorsports-Regulator-Fits-Yamaha-FJ1200-1988-1992-/330900706919?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d0b381667&vxp=mtr)) for an 88 and later FJ--is there a difference between years on this one? (Also, prices... This single unit is $67, but I've seen rectifiers alone listed for $86? Confusing....)
Still suspicious of perhaps a ground wire in the handlebar starter switch unit? Is there a ground on the handlebars?
Thanks,
Kyle
Regulator and rectifier separate on most Japanese bikes best I can recall.
Kurt
Quote from: fintip on April 03, 2013, 07:22:42 PM
Second, I caught it overcharging at 18 volts, so it seems the regulator/rectifier is shot, which is probably what killed the battery.
Thanks,
Kyle
Kyle....... Randy sells 'em......
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Electrical%3ARegulator (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Electrical%3ARegulator)
There is a link to installation video too!
Cheers
Harvy
Sent a message to Randy, though it says he's out of stock.
Quote from: fintip on April 03, 2013, 08:17:36 PM
Sent a message to Randy, though it says he's out of stock.
So it does Kyle.....and Race-Tec Electrics website says it is not available as well......sorry for the bum-steer mate.
Harvy
These guys have it in stock:
http://www.electrosport.com/street-bikes/yamaha/fj1200-86-93/nippon-denso-internal-regulator.html (http://www.electrosport.com/street-bikes/yamaha/fj1200-86-93/nippon-denso-internal-regulator.html)
Harvy
Yep, I am out of stock and so is Evan from Race-Tech electronics.
He is trying to source some components to make a few up to get the people who have requested them via the website on the road. I have 6 people who requested notification on the website and Kyle makes 7...
I sent Evan and email on Monday as a follow-up regarding the progress but I have not heard back from him.
Kyle, if you click the "notify when back in stock" tab you will get an email from me when I do get them.
Also you need to check the red alternator plug and make sure it is not burned. if the regulator is not seeing the actual voltage it will overcharge.
Randy - RPM
Wow, that place has it as more than twice Randy's place.
How bad would it be to use the new battery and leave the dysfunctional regulator in place temporarily?
I'll be sure to check the red alternator plug. Thanks for the tip.
Thanks Randy, you're a great guy.
Quote from: fintip on April 03, 2013, 09:01:25 PM
How bad would it be to use the new battery and leave the dysfunctional regulator in place temporarily?
How much do you like to spend $105 for a new AGM? Sealed AGM's do not like overcharging.
At least with a conventional lead acid you just boil the electrolyte, then you just add more...
...but, not so with AGM's
That red connector is under the left sidecover. Should have a red wire (battery voltage) and a brown wire (which I think is the alternator charging output back to the battery but I can't locate my wiring diagram to confirm).
This connector was partially melted on my "well cared for" '85.
DavidR.
I recall a thread on an old FJ forum where someone determined his overcharging was due to corrosion of an electrical connection, I believe it was near the rear of the engine but I cannot recall that. Anyway, there was a voltage drop across this connection (wiring harness plug), thus giving the regulator a false battery low condition and the charging system would overcharge as a result. Anyone recall this?
John, I don't know a ton about regulator/rectifiers, but is there really 'smart' circuitry that lets it know if the battery is low or not, and prevents it from sending more current if it's full?
Now that I type it out, that sounds like it would make sense, I just didn't realize that level of complexity was built into the design.
And now that I've typed all of this out and read the thread responses again, it seems like this is exactly what Randy and David are referring to as the reason this burned plug can be such a big deal.
As far as asking about running it before I've replaced the regulator... I'm trying to decide if I should wait for Randy to get stock in again or not. Even if I need to just get one from somewhere else, it will be probably a week before it gets to me, and this bike is my only form of transportation. I've been without a ride for over a week now, and that's made life pretty hard.
So the question is, how bad is the abuse of a few days of overcharging? The other battery has lasted this long, and if the lights dimming/brightening was the first symptom, that was maybe two months before it killed the battery (though it may have progressively gotten worse?).
And if it is bad enough that I shouldn't consider it--what about disconnecting the charging system from the battery and charging the battery at home overnight every night? Would the battery get me through the day ok without being charged if it were fresh every morning off of a trickle charger?
Any other ideas?
My last AGM battery survived 8 years of overcharging before it finally died. :yes:
Quote from: fintip on April 03, 2013, 10:23:44 PM
John, I don't know a ton about regulator/rectifiers, but is there really 'smart' circuitry that lets it know if the battery is low or not, and prevents it from sending more current if it's full?
Now that I type it out, that sounds like it would make sense, I just didn't realize that level of complexity was built into the design.
And now that I've typed all of this out and read the thread responses again, it seems like this is exactly what Randy and David are referring to as the reason this burned plug can be such a big deal.
As far as asking about running it before I've replaced the regulator... I'm trying to decide if I should wait for Randy to get stock in again or not. Even if I need to just get one from somewhere else, it will be probably a week before it gets to me, and this bike is my only form of transportation. I've been without a ride for over a week now, and that's made life pretty hard.
So the question is, how bad is the abuse of a few days of overcharging? The other battery has lasted this long, and if the lights dimming/brightening was the first symptom, that was maybe two months before it killed the battery (though it may have progressively gotten worse?).
And if it is bad enough that I shouldn't consider it--what about disconnecting the charging system from the battery and charging the battery at home overnight every night? Would the battery get me through the day ok without being charged if it were fresh every morning off of a trickle charger?
Any other ideas?
I wouldn't really call it smart circuitry, but in layman's terms the regulator monitors voltage (input) and controls (by output) the alternator's output voltage. The rectifier's only function is to convert the alternators AC output to DC using diodes. If the input voltage is low (by any means including a low battery OR voltage drop across a connector...), it will just do it's job and signal the alternator to step it up. Not sure how long it would take to do damage to your battery, but it sounds like Not a lib has some experience with this... Oxidized/corroded connectors are not uncommon on our FJ's, including mine!
Kyle,
I'm going to type this real slow.
Before you make 47 alternate "What if?" plans, go check that alternator connector before you get all wrapped around the axle on needing a new regulator.
I have the RPM/RT regulator in mine. I'll send you my old one which was working perfectly. I only changed it as PM.
DavidR.
Notalib, could you give more details?
David, will check it first thing when I see it later today (have it at friend's house to work on, no place or tools here). I'll send a PM if the connector seems fine.
Is there any visible sign of damage that confirms if a regulator is bad?
The regulator is probably bad if you see absolutely NO fluctuation in the charging voltage as you rev the engine. That would probably indicate that it has failed to maximum output.
The charging voltage should vary slightly from an idle voltage of no less than about 12.5 volts (depending on idle speed) to something like 14.5 volts at 3000 RPM and above. Anything over 15 volts is BAD.
DavidR.
Quote from: fintip on April 04, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
Notalib, could you give more details?
It's right here... disregard the obsolete s/n. :pardon:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2456.5 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=2456.5)
So like I said, I got 18 volts--I can automatically assume it's bad, right?
If I'm looking at the correct plug, it seems to be fine. This bike has been an indoors bike most of its life, for whatever that's worth (I know the history of all three owners before myself on it).
notalib, how can you be sure you're overcharging? 8 years is outrageous for any battery, much less one subject to overcharging.
My new battery is a DEKA brand (x2 power or something, but it's just another face of DEKA), which are supposed to be good.
David, I'm holding out to see if I can find another used one at a mechanic's shop who has a bunch of old bikes. Seeing as installing one requires some soldering, I'll probably try and get someone else to do it--I don't have much experience soldering, and a bad soldering job might be ok in some applications, but a heavily vibrating bike isn't one of them.
Thanks for the offer, though, I may take you up on it. This forum's generosity never ceases to amaze.
Quote from: fintip on April 05, 2013, 01:53:14 PM
notalib, how can you be sure you're overcharging? 8 years is outrageous for any battery, much less one subject to overcharging.
Aside from the symptoms described in Reply #6 of the afrementioned thread?
I have a VOM, and know how to use it. :pardon:
FWIW, I still think you have a hot wire that's worn through the insulation, intermittently contacting the frame when you turn the front wheel (in addition to the 18v problem.
I know, sounds like a great theory, and an easy diagnosis from a distance... but not much is touching the steering column, and what is looks great... So I don't know what to tell you. Just work with one problem at a time.