right simple one here...
who uses synthetic oil?
anyone had issues with synthetic oil?
reason is... i've bought castrol power 1 10w-40 and don't want to use it if its crap.
I switched from dino to synth. Had some hard shifting problems and sticking plates for a little while. Then it all smoothed out and seems normal. Others have had bigger issues and switched back. I think the results vary. But now that you posted an oil thread you will never get the Genie back in the bottle... :dash2: :dash2:
i just wanted some feedback on synthetic in fj motors. serious feedback... not people saying it leaks out and makes you fall over alot.
When my V45 Honda Saber got a cracked valve at 100K miles, the mechanic who opened it up to replace the valve was startled that the bearings showed no signs of wear. He asked me what I had been doing, and I told him that I had been using Syntec deliberately.
He said he was sold on synthetic from that point on.
I'm using Mobile-1 right now, just because of availability, but I choose to use only synthetic in bikes. I have never had a problem with slipping clutches and such myself.
I've been using synthetic in my FJ since I got it, 17 years ago. It's running beautifully.
Does that answer your question about hard facts? :good2:
For far more than you ever wanted to know, there's the Rec.Motorcycles Oil FAQ (and someone archived the rest of the FAQs too! Hoorah!)
http://herohog.com/DoD/ (http://herohog.com/DoD/)
http://herohog.com/DoD/oilfaq.txt (http://herohog.com/DoD/oilfaq.txt)
Well I was leaking oil, but I had that before I switched. No issues in my FJ with Full Synth.
you couldnt have put it much clearer... thanks.
good to hear you've been running it a long time and its still good...
when i pulled the old oil filter and casing to fit the spin on filter adapter and new filter i was pretty shocked to see the filter and oil both looked brand new!!
maybe this motor was actually looked after... all the old plugs seemed to be quite equil in colour too.
i have castrol magnatec for my turbo system too but not a great deal of magnetic parts in my copper lines, aluminum turbo and brass oil pump :rofl2:
will be interesting to see WHERE the oil leaks from when its all back together...
i've got a bit of an issue with the oil cooler hoses at the moment...
i have a male an-10 union on the top of my oil cooler and male unions in the oil cooler hoses... shouldnt these be female?
please dont tell me these two fittings just butt together to form a seal? (i've not worked with oil coolers or fittings before)
I have only had my FJ a short time. Not knowing what the PO had put in the engine, or how long the oil had been used. I installed the spin on adaptor, Wix filter from Randy, and used Repsol oil basically for a flush over 1500 miles. The clutch started slipping under hard acceleration, installed a new clutch and went with Royal Purple MaxCycle oil and a Royal Purple spin on filter. After about 1000 miles, I have not noticed any clutch issues or leakage problems.
Fred
this is my issue...
i need to connect this...
(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/579423_10151213447790827_135918222_n.jpg)
to this...
(http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/549057_10151239146140827_1929760985_n.jpg)
two male unions surely never just bolt together?!
i bought these two hopefully use two of them for my an-6 engine connections to an-10 oil cooler connections...
no idea what thread they are or what fittings i use to connect them together... i can't seem to find female (socket instead of ball) union fittings?
anyone help me on this?!
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Oil-Cooler-Hoses-Various-for-Oil-cooler-Projects-9-sizes-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/$(KGrHqJHJFUFBiiYcb0PBQiYRkUs,w~~60_12.JPG)
You need to be sourcing JIC fittings. That is the equivalent to the A/N fitting sizing and the -6 & -10 sizing.
Also, since you are running a turbo, I would recommend synthetic oil.
Randy - RPM
right i'm confused now...
can you tell me specifically what fitting i need to get onto your adapter randy?
i clearly dont know the correct wording when it comes to an and jic fittings
Okay, the oil filter adapter is not designed for use with anything but an oil filter with 20x1.5mm thread pitch.
The oil pan fittings are -6 A/N-JIC sizing which is different than standard pipe threads.
The fittings you have in your post, that I can see the inside is a ball fitting which in the US is 90% of the time pipe thread.
So, you need -10 female fittings for the cooler to fit the hose you have, but where re you planning to hook that to the engine, at the -6 oil pan fitting?
Randy - RPM
i've already completed your spin on filter conversion. no problems atall.
i will be connecting these to your oil pan connections and to the oil cooler pictured.
the hoses are 1/2" bsp thread. can't measure the pitch of the union though.
i dont know what size this is in oil cooler tech speak.
cheers for your help randy.
Quote from: backstreetheros on November 08, 2012, 04:37:21 PM
i will be connecting these to your oil pan connections and to the oil cooler pictured.
the hoses are 1/2" bsp thread. can't measure the pitch of the union though.
i dont know what size this is in oil cooler tech speak.
cheers for your help randy.
Okay, you are going to have to get A/N-JIC -6 fitting for the oil pan fittings and -10 for the oil cooler. If you have 1/2 fittings they will not work.
My recommendation is to use -6 hose from the pan fittings to the cooler, buy a -6 to -10 adapter and hook the cooler up to the smaller hoses. You need the smaller hoses to maintain some pressure in the lines. I would also feed the hot oil into the bottom of the cooler and push it up through the cooler out the top fitting.
Here is a A/N-JIC chart for your reference; http://fragolaperformancesystems.com/3techinfo/techinfo.html (http://fragolaperformancesystems.com/3techinfo/techinfo.html)
You need fitting like these in the photo of the oil cooler kit on my website.
Most industrial hose manufactures will be able to help you using the aforementioned fittings.
Randy - RPM
ok heres me thinking i need maximum flow hence the huge hoses but didnt think about oil pressure!
i will have to take measurements and get my local engineering shop to make me some up.
my 1/2 hoses are up for grabs if anyone needs them?
thanks again for your help randy. one more question...
when your sat on the bike, which pan fittig is the flow from the engine and which is return from the oil cooler?
i need to get on with this so i can continue with progress.
i also have the stadard oil filter casing and bolt if anyone needs one?
Quote from: backstreetheros on November 08, 2012, 05:44:15 PM
when your sat on the bike, which pan fittig is the flow from the engine and which is return from the oil cooler?
Right fitting, from the seated position, is the outlet.
Randy - RPM
Doesn't the oil cooler just circulate the oil from and back to the sump?
If so, then why the need to maintain pressure? Seems like the -6 fitting would be enough restriction anyway?
Just guessing here and looking to learn.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on November 08, 2012, 07:33:31 PM
Doesn't the oil cooler just circulate the oil from and back to the sump?
If so, then why the need to maintain pressure? Seems like the -6 fitting would be enough restriction anyway?
Just guessing here and looking to learn.
DavidR.
Yes, that is the FJ cooler circuit.
Because if there is not enough pressure maintained in the cooler, then it will only flow oil over the path of least resistance and not use the complete cooler, only a row or two. Sure the fitting is a restrictor, but after that it requires the oil to fill the larger capacity hose & cooler. If there is not enough pressure past the fitting then the oil will not travel through the complete cooler. because it is more "free flowing" than pressurized.
We see it all the time when guys use -8 fitting & hose on the oil pan circuit when used with a large cooler on the race car. Say the fittings are pointing straight up, then the oil falls to the bottom, across the cooler then out the other fitting. The top portion of the cooler substantially cooler than the bottom. The greatest tool ever invented for illustration to these guys about oil cooling systems...
The infrared temperature gun doesn't lie...
Randy - RPM
Quote from: backstreetheros on November 08, 2012, 01:48:20 PM
right simple one here...
who uses synthetic oil?
anyone had issues with synthetic oil?
reason is... i've bought castrol power 1 10w-40 and don't want to use it if its crap.
Mmmmm, oil.
I've read many testimonials here for oil. Just how you determine one being better than the other I'm not sure.
The most common endorsement seems to be " I've been using brand X for years and haven't had a problem"
If you want to play with facts, 99% of engines that do extraordinary mileage do so on crap oil! Taxis, buses, trucks, couriers etc.
I have one car I work on regularly ( 4cyl ) that's done 900,000 K's and the best oil it's ever seen is what the garage has in the 44 out the back.
The one thing all the above mentioned vehicles have in common is a low start to mileage ratio.
The wost thing you can do to an engine is start it cold, but this is of course, unavoidable. This is when a substantial amount of the wear occurs.
Oil, like most things, has no doubt benefitted greatly from modern technology and there may be a benefits to using synth, but how many 100's of 1000's of Km's do you plan on putting on the old girl anyway?
Granted, there may be specific applications where it has an advantage, but I'm talking general engine use.
It would cost me $150 a year extra to use it, that's another FJ every 5 - 10 years.
HOW YOU TREAT YOUR MOTOR COLD, HOW OFTEN YOU CHANGE YOUR OIL AND YOUR RIDING HABITS WILL HAVE A GREATER IMPACT ON ENGINE LIFE THAN OIL CHOICE.
I have nothing against syth oil I just can't see the value in it.
I did run it for 10,000 K's but had specific reasons for changing back to mineral.
SUMMARY
Run whatever you like, the FJ's hardly likely to fail prematurely in any of our lifetimes because of it.
Noel
Ribbert, +1 from me.
Ahhh, the voice of reason, logic, and sanity.
You will not be popular.
Arnie
I'm just curious where you get a new FJ for ($150*5) or even ($150*10).
You must be a great shopper.
Noel
WHAT do you think you're doing? You can't use that kind of logic in this topic!
Somebody get a rope.
He's a Witch, BURN HIM!!!!
If the world wasn't flat, I'd sail over there teach you a lesson. :-)
DavidR.
Makes sense, thanks Randy!
DavidR.
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 08, 2012, 07:41:45 PM
We see it all the time when guys use -8 fitting & hose on the oil pan circuit when used with a large cooler on the race car. Say the fittings are pointing straight up, then the oil falls to the bottom, across the cooler then out the other fitting. The top portion of the cooler substantially cooler than the bottom.
Randy,
I do not doubt you here, but reading the above surprised me. Do you, or does anyone else, know why doesn't the oil have a restricted path all the way through the cooler, thereby forcing the entire cooler to be used? This is odd to me that it does not, or more precisely, I guess I have always assumed it does. Something about high vs. low rpm conditions or possibly cold running vs. hot maybe. I suspect it's something like this but I just can't figure it out.
Like David, I am interested in learning more here.
Thanks,
Dan
Good morning everyone,
The oil cooler does not flow 100% of the oil that circulates through the engine (the gentleman from R.P.M can explain it in detail). When I needed to replace my road worn oil cooler, I bought the cooler Randy offers. It bolted right in without any problems, all the hoses and hardware are first class. At least 30,000 miles later all the fittings remain tight and leak proof. The hardware is also "as new".
Like everthing else that I have purchased from RPM, the products provided are simply the BEST available for our FJ's.
Unbeknownst to Randy, when the new cooler was installed, I confirmed the infrared findings by installing both an oil pressure AND oil temperature gauge. I have ridden the bike sometimes [very, very] hard and I have never seen 300 degrees, even in the hottest weather.
It is a fact that on the hottest days the oil temp will actually drop as the speeds increase (even into triple digit mph). I do not know if it is because of the increased air flow through the cooler or if more oil is diverted to the cooler itself. All I know is that it works and works well!
The oil temperature sender is located in the oil gallery on the side of the engine. I recently purchased another oil sender adaptor from RPM and am going to locate another oil temperature sending unit on the bottom of the engine. I will then be able to compare the oil temperature from two different locations.
I can post my findings if anyone is interested.
Thanks again to Randy and all the great top quality products from RPM.
Ride safe,
Mike Ramos.
I forgot to mention the oil cooler from RPM maintains 180 degrees in cold weather. It does not over cool the engine oil, which is anathema to long engine life.
Mike Ramos.
Quote from: Dan Filetti on November 09, 2012, 10:13:32 AM
Randy,
I do not doubt you here, but reading the above surprised me. Do you, or does anyone else, know why doesn't the oil have a restricted path all the way through the cooler, thereby forcing the entire cooler to be used? This is odd to me that it does not, or more precisely, I guess I have always assumed it does. Something about high vs. low rpm conditions or possibly cold running vs. hot maybe. I suspect it's something like this but I just can't figure it out.
Like David, I am interested in learning more here.
Thanks,
Dan
We are talking about large coolers on the race car, 12"x12". The size of the cooler requires the pump to be large enough to create pressure within the cooler and cause the oil to rise to the top due to the restriction. When big hose & fitting are sued on the lower volume secondary pump of the FJ once it leaves the pump and there is no back pressure, the oil will only flow the path of least resistance.
With the bike, the cooler is smaller and there is not such a large pressure drop in the cooler to have this occur. But, with that large cooler he is installing on his turbo chopper, he needs to maintain line pressure to have the cooler work efficiently.
If you want to give it a try. Hook up a 1/2 garden hose, turn on the faucet, note the pressure and flow of the hose. Now, separately hook up one each, 1/2", 5/8" & 3/4" additional hose to the original 1/2" garden hose.
As the additional hose gets bigger in diameter, the pressure and flow drops as they require more volume to fill the hose before it reaches the end. If you really want to see a change add a 1" or larger hose to the 1/2" and see the difference.
Randy - RPM
Not to drag this out unnecessarily (oh what the hell).
Couldn't this be accomplished with a restriction on the outlet side? I see where a small hose on the outlet side would cause back pressure, but does the inlet hose also need to be small?
I would think the volume of oil being pumped would determine how much of the cooler gets used? A small amount of oil supplied at high pressure is still going to run to the bottom of the cooler. Conversely, a large amount of oil at low pressure would use the whole cooler if it is more than the cooler can flow.
Sometimes this stuff is counter intuitive. Like a radiator. People used to remove the thermostat in an attempt to get an engine to run cooler. That usually causes the engine to overheat since the water flows right through the radiator and doesn't spend enough time sitting in it and shedding heat.
DavidR.
Quote from: backstreetheros on November 08, 2012, 01:48:20 PM
right simple one here...
who uses synthetic oil?
anyone had issues with synthetic oil?
reason is... i've bought castrol power 1 10w-40 and don't want to use it if its crap.
I run motorcycle specific synthetic oil.
when 1st changed clutch will slip then be ok.
you can skip this by soaking your clutch fibers in the new oil first.
run what ya bought and see for yourself.
following randys advice i ditched the huge oil cooler lines i previously bought...
went to my local engineering shop today and they made me up two an-6 female to male hoses for a reasonable £53.00
they are PARKER hydraulic hoses.
then i went to bredy agricentre (tractor shop) and they supplied me with two an-10 to an-6 reducers and a Male to female an-6 elbow.
all fits well on the bike. i had the return hose to the engine made extra long so i could route it well away from the exhaust pipes.
i'll try get some pictures up tomorrow.
i think the previous post about oil not really making that much difference is true.
i just didnt want to give any more reason why i should change to a better clutch! :rofl2:
1) Couldn't this be accomplished with a restriction on the outlet side? I see where a small hose on the outlet side would cause back pressure, but does the inlet hose also need to be small?
A) Yes & no...The back pressure within the cooler is still going to dictate flow. If you have a large hose & cooler with a restrictor at the outlet, then you will have a back up trying to force the oil through the restrictor. That will slow the flow and fill the cooler, but then you have to control the flow to allow the cooler to work efficiently.
2) I would think the volume of oil being pumped would determine how much of the cooler gets used? A small amount of oil supplied at high pressure is still going to run to the bottom of the cooler. Conversely, a large amount of oil at low pressure would use the whole cooler if it is more than the cooler can flow.
A) We cannot confuse pressure & volume. They are two different things that must work together. If a small volume of oil at high pressure is put through a cooler that is restricted, pressure wise, then the cooler will fill completely, but once filled could actually raise the pressure.
And the same can happen on a low pressure/high volume, depending on the cooler, could actually raise the pressure as well.
3) Sometimes this stuff is counter intuitive. Like a radiator. People used to remove the thermostat in an attempt to get an engine to run cooler. That usually causes the engine to overheat since the water flows right through the radiator and doesn't spend enough time sitting in it and shedding heat.
Exactly, that is why if you are not going to run a thermostat, you should run the appropriate restrictor. The water pump can pump the water too fast through the radiator. But if you reduce the size of the radiator and increase pressure then it will cooler better...
As far as the FJ is concerned since the cooler size is the biggest factor when mounting coolers the size really does not come into play. Now, just to throw in one more thing to make you scratch your head... :wacko1:
The cooler I offer for the FJ has a dual circuit built in based on the path of least resistance theory, acting as a thermostat and during the testing on the FJ is became clear how well it worked.
The coolers top two plates are a straight pass through whereas the other tubes are a cross flow-spiral tubes. When the oil is cold the path of least resistance is straight through until the oil comes up to temp. Then as the hot oil has a lower viscosity it can flow through the complete cooler. What we found when testing during the cold of winter the engine oil temp actually came to operating temp quicker and maintained in the 180* range at speed.
Check out photo #4;
RPM Oil Cooler Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M/C:FJCoolerKit)
The stock cooler would not allow the engine oil to rise above 150* on the same ride on the same day. I also note that during hot day riding the oil temp on my bike stays much more stable compared to the stock oil cooler on my wife's bike, it has a much higher fluctuation of temp.
Ultimately, back to the question at hand about hooking up that cooler on the chopper. That is a large cooler, 18 rows at 2" wide and the hoses he has a too large as well for the lower volume secondary circuit of the oil pump.
The oil pump was designed to work with a 1" wide 5 row cooler from Yamaha. I have bumped the cooler up to a 12 row, but added the additional internal restriction of the cross flow-spiral tubes and the pressure of the circuit is the same.
And finally on the subject, I am sticking with the fact he should be running synthetic oil due to the turbo. The biggest issue will be the burning of petroleum based oil at the turbo lubrication point and degradation of the bearings within, especially at shut down.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: backstreetheros on November 09, 2012, 12:20:14 PM
i think the previous post about oil not really making that much difference is true.
i just didnt want to give any more reason why i should change to a better clutch! :rofl2:
See my previous post about the oil, since you have a turbo...synthetic is what you should use.
All you will need to do is double spring the clutch if you have the stock pressure plate. If that configuration can drag around my 1500+ pound race car with at least ten times more traction contact patch than the bike has, you will have no problems with any oil you choose to run.
Randy - RPM
just to confuse everyone more...
i took your advice randy and made the oil cooler hoses in an-6
the turbo cooling system is IN NO WAY connected to the engine cooling system
i have a completely seperate resivoir, pump and oil cooler just for the turbo.
also seperate water resivoir, water pump and radiator for the water cooling of the turbocharger.
see pictures. one oil cooler on the front of the bike and one at the rear (the rear cooler is for the turbo)
i am using castrol power 1 synthetic for the engine cooling
and castrol magnatec 10-40 for the turbo cooling as this was specified for the subaru impreza.
(http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/37799_10151198181860827_1406613578_n.jpg)
rear cooler for turbocharger.
(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/46323_10151198123700827_1444263285_n.jpg)
front cooler for engine...
Quote from: racerrad8 on November 09, 2012, 11:08:33 AM
We are talking about large coolers on the race car, 12"x12". The size of the cooler requires the pump to be large enough to create pressure within the cooler and cause the oil to rise to the top due to the restriction. When big hose & fitting are sued on the lower volume secondary pump of the FJ once it leaves the pump and there is no back pressure, the oil will only flow the path of least resistance.
I know that this is probably an obvious question but I still don't get it. I am certain I am stumbling into oil cooling theory without proper knowledge to begin with. Be that as it may, I am still curious. In your above statement you talked about a 'path of least resistance'. My question is why is there a path of least resistance in the first place? Why will the oil just not snake through all the rows, like an efficient use of a Tron light cycle, one row at a time until it comes out the other side. You seem to be indirectly answering this but saying the oil needs to flow up to the top of the cooler once the engine is running and producing enough pressure. I get that pressure can be too low, and cause issues, as above, but if the cooler can be empty for a period of time while the bike is running, while pressure builds, then why not have it be empty while the oil is snaking through the labyrinth? Too much time? A design like this would certainly ensure that the oil passes through the cooler in an orderly, an optimized fashion -No? would it make the engine run too cold in some cases? It is so obvious that I am beyond certain it's been tried and discarded for some reason, I just can't wrap my mind around why it was discarded from a design perspective.
Any input would be helpful.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on November 09, 2012, 01:50:08 PM
I know that this is probably an obvious question but I still don't get it. I am certain I am stumbling into oil cooling theory without proper knowledge to begin with. Be that as it may, I am still curious. In your above statement you talked about a 'path of least resistance'. My question is why is there a path of least resistance in the first place? Why will the oil just not snake through all the rows, like an efficient use of a Tron light cycle, one row at a time until it comes out the other side. You seem to be indirectly answering this but saying the oil needs to flow up to the top of the cooler once the engine is running and producing enough pressure. I get that pressure can be too low, and cause issues, as above, but if the cooler can be empty for a period of time while the bike is running, while pressure builds, then why not have it be empty while the oil is snaking through the labyrinth? Too much time? A design like this would certainly ensure that the oil passes through the cooler in an orderly, an optimized fashion -No? would it make the engine run too cold in some cases? It is so obvious that I am beyond certain it's been tried and discarded for some reason, I just can't wrap my mind around why it was discarded from a design perspective.
Any input would be helpful.
Dan
There are two types of oil coolers, oil coolers & transmission coolers.
Oil coolers are referenced many different ways, full flow, single pass, dual pass, three pass...
These coolers have an inlet to a row of cooling tubes that flow to the outlet side. There is nothing controlling the oil flow inside the cooler other than the flow & pressure of the supply side. An oil cooler is like a radiator more or less. If the oil pressure system does not have enough flow and/or pressure it will allow the oil to travel the path of least resistance within the cooler. Sure, the cooler will be full of oil, but if it falls to the bottom, flows to the other side and out then the upper tubes will not flow as much oil and the viscosity will stay higher and the flow will be decreased. I am not saying the oil only flows across the bottom of the cooler, but the large cooler with -8 fittings & hoses and a large cooler can see as much a 30* difference of the cooler temp from top to bottom.
You can see the inlet and the edges of each cooling tube/fin in the photo below.
(http://www.rpmracingca.com/prodimages/large/Cooling%20SOC-2.jpg)
Transmission coolers are direct flow with no option to choose which way it flows. So, the oil has a direct flow and not option of least resistance.
(http://www.greghome.com/images/Maxima%20Pics/Modifications/Other%20Mods/XmissionCooler/XmissionCooler.jpg)
These types of coolers do not provide adequate surface area for cooling. The only expose the oil to the direct oil flow path through the limited amount of cooling area. Also, this type of coolers are designed to be used in conjunction with the radiator heat exchanger dropping the initial temp of the trans fluid to radiator temp and then being further cooled by the cooler. I cannot imagine how big a cooler of this design would have to be to obtain the oil cooling surface of the full flow style cooler.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on November 09, 2012, 09:49:17 AM
Noel
WHAT do you think you're doing? You can't use that kind of logic in this topic!
Somebody get a rope.
He's a Witch, BURN HIM!!!!
If the world wasn't flat, I'd sail over there teach you a lesson. :-)
DavidR.
My apologies, a serious breach of forum protocol, I don't know what came over me, a moments sanity perhaps, or sniffing the wrong oil. It won't happen again.
I promise all future opinions will be divisive and provocative.
Noel
Oil will always take the path of least resistance, just like any liquid or gas. Balancing the pressure and rate against the cooler size/shape is another matter!
Sorry, was bothering me to read that. Understand what Randy meant though.
Quote from: Arnie on November 09, 2012, 09:00:47 AM
I'm just curious where you get a new FJ for ($150*5) or even ($150*10).
You must be a great shopper.
I paid $500 for my second bike and there's one on ebay at the moment with a buy it now price of $750 (76,000 k's)
Noel