I've never had to think too much about forks, have only put them on and taken them off without really much concern for their performance. (The XJ 650 Maxim was never going to be a beautifully handling machine, though I have to say it kicks the ass of my friend's '84 R100RS, so I never really complained. Before that, I didn't even know what carburetors actually were, much less fork design.)
So considering that an FJ will be my next bike, I've started putting some thought into front ends. I've started studying tire geometry and design. And I have started reading up on forks. (This (http://www.fjmods.btinternet.co.uk/emulators.htm)was a great resource).
I just realized I have a slight gap in my understanding though; from the 87 to the 89 front end, I know the rim size changed to accommodate a different size tire, one which was wider but with a narrower sidewall and about the same diameter, greatly improving front end 'feel' and maneuverability.
What I am not sure of is the forks themselves. Was there any actual improvement on the forks? Is there any difference? They're both just damper rod suspension, right? Maybe they just were designed differently to accommodate the wider rim--is that it?
Can the older generation of forks take the RPM mod ('emulator') just as the newer generation can?
The early bikes, pre-'89, had anti-dive on them. It's pretty much useless and adds complexity unnecessarilly. They can be be removed and drilled block-off plates installed (needs the drilled channels for fork oil to flow). They also have different spacing for the caliper mounts, so the monobloc calipers won't bolt-on, you'd need adapter plates.
They are 41mm, so the RPM inserts should fit and function correctly.
Quote from: RichBaker on September 29, 2012, 04:55:24 AM
The early bikes, pre-'89, had anti-dive on them...They can be be removed and drilled block-off plates installed (needs the drilled channels for fork oil to flow).
Hello - first off, my apologies for my absence on the site (I'm going through some dark places in my head, and haven't come out of it yet - I'm suffering from a shitty bout of depression :sorry:)
Aside from that...what else has happened since I been away? Oh yeah...my FJ got reversed into by a truck (full side on, as she was parked sideways) - the guy knew the bike was there, as I was chatting to him before he got in the cab, fired up, and just shot back - later asking "what did I make that face for....why did I not shout out or raise a hand?"
I thought he would have stopped in time, or was taking it as close as he could get in order to pull out and make a turn. In less than 2 seconds, after the massive BANG sound, the bike was on the floor with a tipper unit hovering over it before I really knew what happened. But, he did say for a split second, his mind was on other stuff, and he just "forgot" it was there. I guess shit happens, and that day, it happened to me.
Anyhoo - A question for when the Anti-Dive units are removed and the blank plates are on.....
Does it alter the fork oil quantity much? I mean...how much "less" should I add to the forks when the anti-dive (AD) are removed. Surely they hold a small amount, or, do they hold very little, that it makes no difference to the level when changing forks seals for example?
Sorry if it's a long winded question, with possibly a simple answer.
Basically - what level of oil (cc) do the forks take after the anti-dive is removed. Do we put less in to compensate?
Would be a bugger to put the full amount in and then pop the seals (as maybe the each AD unit holds say....20 or 30 ml?)
The reason I ask, is that I am changing the fork seals soon, and don't have the anti dive fitted (They weren't fitted when I bought the bike)
Thoughts and suggestions...as usual...written on the back of a spare $100 bill and mailed to my address....
Thankees and handshakes all round.
As an 86' owner with AD forks I can say that I saw no gain from it. They still dived, hence, worthless and added unsprung weight. At best a sales gimmick. They don't hold any amount of oil that you need to worry about. The concept is pinching off the fork oil when the brakes are applied. Most of the size of the AD unit is a cavity with a spring that moves a needle.
Hello - crikey that was a quick return.
Sooo, erm....with no anti dive fitted (that is: removed), the fork oil quantity is the same and the fork internals are left as is (i.e with all that gubbins)?
All I gotta do then is drain the fork (either by screw or tipping upside down), pop the old seals out, fit new ones, top up from empty as per yammyha spesifeecayshuns and bobs yer uncle then?
And you wrote the answer on the board!!! Was the wallet clean out of hundred dollar bills.
Sheesh!
Times are hard over here y'know...... :)
Very empty wallet, ditched the 86' forks for 89', put RPM valves in, FZR1000 front wheel on, new 17" rubber, braided lines, Blue dots, new master cylinder with lever, new bearings, new Galfer knock off rotors, new HH pads, promises of "love you long time" to wife....
Quote from: FJmonkey on September 30, 2012, 04:17:20 PM
promises of "love you long time" to wife....
Hmmm. You mean...she's still married to you despite the bike being the first love? BLIMEY - she's one tuff cookie!
Remember, giving her a "gift" back does NOT involve saying: "come on dear...hop on the back and I'll take you for a spin n' show you where all the money went....."
A/D Dave,
How did you "remove" your A/D units. Did you remove them and put a simple cover plate over the ports? Or, did you install drilled plates?
There are a few ways to bypass the A/D function, but blank plates that aren't drilled won't work.
DavidR.
Quote from: Anti-Dive Dave on September 30, 2012, 04:24:22 PM
Hmmm. You mean...she's still married to you despite the bike being the first love? BLIMEY - she's one tuff cookie!
Remember, giving her a "gift" back does NOT involve saying: "come on dear...hop on the back and I'll take you for a spin n' show you where all the money went....."
Truth be told she kept me from selling it after I crashed it. I found parts years later to fixer her up and got back to riding. I then found the Yahoo FJ group and enjoyed it, till it imploded and Marsh created the alternative FJ group. I still read the Yahoo posts as they hit my email. She no longer rides with me but supports my addiction. I think she likes the times I am out of the house, Sancho might enjoy it as well.....
Can the pre-88 forks accommodate the post-88 3" rim as a straight bolt on?
I've never heard of adapter plates, but they look pretty cheap and straightforward; is there any disadvantage to using adapter plates? Are they a hassle for any reason?
In other words: Does one really need an 88 or later front-end, or could one just upgrade the pre-88 forks with the RPM catridge emulator, get a post-88 rim, and get some new calipers with adapter plates? Wouldn't that be easier? Any reason this isn't a good idea?
I'm after a set myself , but to save the hassle of adapter plates, fzr400 rr front calipers bolt up to 84/87 Fj,s , twin pot , maybe not as good as blue spots , but better than the single ones your using now , , I changed my other 84 over to 89 with 3.5" rim , forks ect and blue spots, , like to keep this one closer to standard :good2:
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 01:37:39 AM
Can the pre-88 forks accommodate the post-88 3" rim as a straight bolt on?
I've never heard of adapter plates, but they look pretty cheap and straightforward; is there any disadvantage to using adapter plates? Are they a hassle for any reason?
In other words: Does one really need an 88 or later front-end, or could one just upgrade the pre-88 forks with the RPM catridge emulator, get a post-88 rim, and get some new calipers with adapter plates? Wouldn't that be easier? Any reason this isn't a good idea?
Why go through all that and end up having what would look like, a half assed, cobble job?
Switching out the fork legs are NOT a difficult operation.
The forks are one of the main reasons we have been suggesting an 89 or newer year model...as you're starting out with a better outfitted platform ready for modding, but anything is possible.
If it were mine, I wouldn't be happy with the overall look of the forks, with a capped off, no longer functional A/D and adapter plates for the calipers.
But, after all, it's not mine, do what you want.
Leon
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on September 30, 2012, 08:45:43 PM
How did you "remove" your A/D units. Did you remove them and put a simple cover plate over the ports? Or, did you install drilled plates?
Hello Mr R,
When I bought the what-started-as-a-$250-needs-everything-replaced-bike, the forks already had the AD units removed, and plates already installed. (
Have photos of the bike then, it looks like a insurance write off!) But, for £200 Uk pounds, I couldn't argue. Granted, it has cost me 3 times as much putting it back on the road. SHEESH!
And here's the honest part - the forks were
not touched at all, and the bike has been ridden like that from day one. (
waits a bit whilst everyone reels back in horror :shok:. I mean, the bikes "damping" ability is pretty non-existant and I put that down to the leaky seals (clearly seen on the fork leg).
When the FJ was fixed up enough to try for an MOT (UK Government annual road inspection), he wrote an advisory (a pre-warning) to get the oil seals replaced as there's not much "bounce" left in the front end. I put it off...and off....and off, and just rode the beast as is.
Now, I got me new seals to go in, and new fork protector/blade dust covers - I'm gonna have to do it (
correction, I'm going to have to get someone to do it for me!)
I'm now curious as to what plates
are fitted. If they ARE indeed just cover plates, then I assumed the forks would just function as "normal" straight leg forks with no "holes".
Can I ask another ignorant question then?......what do the "drilled plates" look like, and why do they need to be drilled, if fluid is no longer required to flow through? My sincere apologies for the lack of knowledge.......
Quote from: Anti-Dive Dave on October 01, 2012, 06:46:14 AM
Can I ask another ignorant question then?......what do the "drilled plates" look like, and why do they need to be drilled, if fluid is no longer required to flow through? My sincere apologies for the lack of knowledge.......
With the AD units your forks have two seperate systems. The dampener rod system and the AD system. The AD system attempts to control the dive by controlling the fork oil flow through it. If not blocked off properly the fork oil will not pass through the AD system and into the dampener system. This locks the hydraulics and would make your forks hard as rocks. If you are out of oil then the jury is still out on weather your block-off plates are drilled or ported properly. There are two ways to port the plates. Cross drill and then plug the drilled hole or mill an internal groove in the surface eliminating the need to plug a hole. Look at your plates to see if there is any evidence of extra holes or fasteners. If not then remove one and look for a passage to allow oil to pass from an upper hole to a lower one.
Here is one example, a little too complex but they get the job done.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FJ1100-fork-anti-dive-block-off-plates-FJ-1100-1200-/280761718032?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item415eb3d510 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/FJ1100-fork-anti-dive-block-off-plates-FJ-1100-1200-/280761718032?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item415eb3d510)
Oh no! - the plates on my forks look nothing like those fancy things. Mine are just...well...on the outside: just basic flat plates. Nothing fancy.
I don't wanna take one off, as I'll have fork oil piss out everywhere (whatever is left in there - if anything!) And how do I get the oil back in? By removing fork cap. Then, the bike has to be off the ground to relieve pressure on springs....and...and...not having the means to get the front end off the ground (just a side stand), I can't do it meself.
Partly one of the reasons I just left em as is. The forks DO have some kinda rebound in them, and are not locked solid, so maybe thats good news?
I have pictures I can post (of the outside of the plates...oh, and the rest of the bike....not that anyone want to see a well travelled battered and bruised FJ), but I refuse to open up another account to flickr or photobucket, just to upload photos. That's another email address the web has, and another inbox full of spam.
PLEASE, can the mods have "insert image" and then we have the option of browsing our computer to select pic. Obviously, no boobs, bums, willies and next doors dog taking a crap on me lawn....
Oh, and Mr. Monkey - HOW MUCH for 2 bits o' aluminum? JEEZUS H!!!
Quote from: Anti-Dive Dave on October 01, 2012, 07:13:28 AM
PLEASE, can the mods have "insert image" and then we have the option of browsing our computer to select pic. Obviously, no boobs, bums, willies and next doors dog taking a crap on me lawn....
The plates can look like just a simple flat plate and still have the proper porting, like below. As far as loading pictures, you can load them into the gallery on this site and post them.
Like this
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/3/104_01_10_12_8_09_11.jpeg)
Quote from: 1tinindian on October 01, 2012, 06:37:05 AM
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 01:37:39 AM
Can the pre-88 forks accommodate the post-88 3" rim as a straight bolt on?
I've never heard of adapter plates, but they look pretty cheap and straightforward; is there any disadvantage to using adapter plates? Are they a hassle for any reason?
In other words: Does one really need an 88 or later front-end, or could one just upgrade the pre-88 forks with the RPM catridge emulator, get a post-88 rim, and get some new calipers with adapter plates? Wouldn't that be easier? Any reason this isn't a good idea?
Why go through all that and end up having what would look like, a half assed, cobble job?
Switching out the fork legs are NOT a difficult operation.
The forks are one of the main reasons we have been suggesting an 89 or newer year model...as you're starting out with a better outfitted platform ready for modding, but anything is possible.
If it were mine, I wouldn't be happy with the overall look of the forks, with a capped off, no longer functional A/D and adapter plates for the calipers.
But, after all, it's not mine, do what you want.
Leon
Wow, what? I mean, I should preface this by saying that I'm not really concerned with looks, other than liking the body of the bike. I mean, having a good looking bike is nice and all, but I run a *very* tight budget, and so it's not really high up on the priority list. (Except for a stock paint job, which is why I won't even consider FJ's that have been repainted or are naked, and having the bellypan, which I would be willing to shell out and buy, as it makes such a huge improvement on the appearance on the bike. But again, those are body issues.)
Second, what would look so bad? I am not at all of the opinion that those plates look bad (just some other metal accentuation, no? What's so bad about that?), and I have no idea what a caliper mounted by an adapter plate would look like--given, again, though, that it's just a little piece of metal (right?), I can't imagine it's even that noticeable except to people who really know such things--and even then, what's so bad about that? Personally, I think maintaining that look even
with adapter plate and block offs would probably be a lot nicer
looking than some of the other front-end (GSXR, etc.) transplants I've seen.
And I know fork transplants are easy and straightforward. I'm talking about expense and functionality, not ease; I imagine the little bit of home-cutting to block off the AD is more difficult than a fork swap, even though that shouldn't be THAT hard.
So from the expense and functionality standpoint:
Would 87/earlier forks with AD properly bypassed, RPM cartridge emulators + springs, and an 88/later 3" rim (still wondering if this is bolt on or not...), and either an FZR400rr caliper or blue dots (etc., some modern caliper) with an adaptor plate
be a cheaper option that would be just as effective as
an 88/later front end swap+RPM fork upgrades? I can't imagine finding a spare 88/later front end is easy, and shipping will be expensive, and then it STILL needs $350 in fork upgrades in the form of springs and cartridge emulator... (which would still only have the stock caliper, which is fine, but not a blue dot...)
[Ah-ha: I just realized I did say easier. But I wasn't being clear; I meant easier in that sourcing a front end and shipping it sounds harder than just working with the stockers that come with the bike--not "easier" as in the work itself, in which case just popping a new front end into place that's already in one piece would obviously be the 'easiest' option.]
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 02:52:37 PM
and I have no idea what a caliper mounted by an adapter plate would look like--given, again, though, that it's just a little piece of metal (right?), I can't imagine it's even that noticeable except to people who really know such things
There's an adapter plate that will make the Blue Dots fit using the FJ1100 brake mounts.
Can't remember who made it, think it was made for another Yamaha, maybe somebody can fill in.
(http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k588/PussinBoots2011/49_08_11_11_4_39_26.jpg)
Nat
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 02:52:37 PM
Quote from: 1tinindian on October 01, 2012, 06:37:05 AM
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 01:37:39 AM
Can the pre-88 forks accommodate the post-88 3" rim as a straight bolt on?
I've never heard of adapter plates, but they look pretty cheap and straightforward; is there any disadvantage to using adapter plates? Are they a hassle for any reason?
In other words: Does one really need an 88 or later front-end, or could one just upgrade the pre-88 forks with the RPM catridge emulator, get a post-88 rim, and get some new calipers with adapter plates? Wouldn't that be easier? Any reason this isn't a good idea?
Why go through all that and end up having what would look like, a half assed, cobble job?
Switching out the fork legs are NOT a difficult operation.
The forks are one of the main reasons we have been suggesting an 89 or newer year model...as you're starting out with a better outfitted platform ready for modding, but anything is possible.
If it were mine, I wouldn't be happy with the overall look of the forks, with a capped off, no longer functional A/D and adapter plates for the calipers.
But, after all, it's not mine, do what you want.
Leon
Wow, what? I mean, I should preface this by saying that I'm not really concerned with looks, other than liking the body of the bike. I mean, having a good looking bike is nice and all, but I run a *very* tight budget, and so it's not really high up on the priority list. (Except for a stock paint job, which is why I won't even consider FJ's that have been repainted or are naked, and having the bellypan, which I would be willing to shell out and buy, as it makes such a huge improvement on the appearance on the bike. But again, those are body issues.)
Second, what would look so bad? I am not at all of the opinion that those plates look bad (just some other metal accentuation, no? What's so bad about that?), and I have no idea what a caliper mounted by an adapter plate would look like--given, again, though, that it's just a little piece of metal (right?), I can't imagine it's even that noticeable except to people who really know such things--and even then, what's so bad about that? Personally, I think maintaining that look even with adapter plate and block offs would probably be a lot nicer looking than some of the other front-end (GSXR, etc.) transplants I've seen.
And I know fork transplants are easy and straightforward. I'm talking about expense and functionality, not ease; I imagine the little bit of home-cutting to block off the AD is more difficult than a fork swap, even though that shouldn't be THAT hard.
So from the expense and functionality standpoint:
Would 87/earlier forks with AD properly bypassed, RPM cartridge emulators + springs, and an 88/later 3" rim (still wondering if this is bolt on or not...), and either an FZR400rr caliper or blue dots (etc., some modern caliper) with an adaptor plate
be a cheaper option that would be just as effective as
an 88/later front end swap+RPM fork upgrades? I can't imagine finding a spare 88/later front end is easy, and shipping will be expensive, and then it STILL needs $350 in fork upgrades in the form of springs and cartridge emulator... (which would still only have the stock caliper, which is fine, but not a blue dot...)
[Ah-ha: I just realized I did say easier. But I wasn't being clear; I meant easier in that sourcing a front end and shipping it sounds harder than just working with the stockers that come with the bike--not "easier" as in the work itself, in which case just popping a new front end into place that's already in one piece would obviously be the 'easiest' option.]
I'll say this one last time... if you are so hell-bent on modding an FJ, start with an 89 or newer year model, as it will already have some of the work done for you.
If you can't live with that, get an older one and ride the sucker, after all you gotta start somewhere.
It just sounds to me, like you want what is already standard on the 89+, but are stuck on the red and white paint scheme.
So until you actually own an FJ, regardless of year, all this talk is pointless.
Like they say, if you're going to swim, you gotta jump in with both feet!
Leon
QuoteI'll say this one last time... if you are so hell-bent on modding an FJ, start with an 89 or newer year model, as it will already have some of the work done for you.
If you can't live with that, get an older one and ride the sucker, after all you gotta start somewhere.
It just sounds to me, like you want what is already standard on the 89+, but are stuck on the red and white paint scheme.
So until you actually own an FJ, regardless of year, all this talk is pointless.
Like they say, if you're going to swim, you gotta jump in with both feet!
Leon
I don't mean to be contrarian, but I hear you saying that, and I don't hear the reason. What exactly does the 89 offer that makes it such a better platform for modding? Please, I'm honestly asking. From what I hear, the forks are pretty much the same. It has a wider rim and fits blue dots off the shelf. Then there's a fuel pump (which I assume is as about as straightforward a mod as you can do, no?). That's all, right?
So, I get fuel pump, a rim and an adapter plate. And they're even? Yes? What makes the '89 such a better platform? Anything I'm missing? The vibration that caused fairing damage, the engine not pulling as hard past 8k, the extra weight, the less sporty styling, the less favorable color scheme... I think those cons outweigh the pros for me for a later model.
And it's not just the red/white, I'd be fine with the White/Silver/Red accents '89 if that were the best bike. I want a bike that performs kick-ass and can be ridden 600 miles in a day if need be--and while that's an interesting balance, I lean towards performance over comfort. On top of that, the earlier models did look the best.
In any case, "Having some of the work done for me" isn't a huge priority. I enjoy doing the work myself anyways...
Now, am I missing something?
Not to put words in Leon's mouth but I think what he ment by get the 89' equates to shit or get off the pot.
I don't mean to put words into anyone's mouth.
This is my own statement to Fintip. Others may or may not agree as is their right.
I am VERY tired of reading these long voluminous 'what if' posts by Fintip.
You've been given a great deal of honest advise from many on this list as well, it seems, from Doc on the UKFJOC list.
Feel free to continue your "fact finding" about the FJ or any other topic you like, but stop repeating and repeating ad-nausium your what ifs. Buy a bike, mod it as you like, and shut up!!
Arnie
Simply put, I picked the 89 because it was the first year for the better forks, YES I said better, because it eliminates the anti-dive and has the correct spacing for the blue dot (R1) calipers, and already has a 17" front wheel, and with RPM fork valves installed, Bobs your uncle.
That is a lot of the work already done over getting an 87- older model that would need to have these things changed to be up to date.
Obviously you are not getting it at all.
Maybe an FJ isn't what you really are looking for.
We all have bought and rode and modded every year model available and we all seem to like the FJ for what it is, no matter how stock or modified it is.
So yes, Mark and Arnie hit it right on the head, by a damn bike and enjoy.
This continuous back and forth is growing tiresome.
Leon
Well then. Some people enjoy talking theory, others don't. I'll stop bothering you all.
If anyone knows what adapter plate we're talking about, or what I need to know to find it, I'd be grateful.
If anyone can confirm that a later model 3" rim bolts onto the pre-'88 forks, or knows what it takes, I'd be grateful.
As for a straight and direct answer, I don't want an '89, so I won't get one. I'll be getting an FJ11, at this point. If I can't find one soon enough and the right 1TX or 3CV shows up, I might compromise and get that instead, and keep hunting.
Lastly, It's not like I'm delaying getting one; I've emailed about 5 different people around the US for one's I'm interested in.
Thanks for the help.
Ok, my turn.....
Yes, the '89 and later 17" rim and spacers bolts on to the early '84-'87 FJ forks, they share the same size 15mm axle...
However....
The brake rotors you have on the early '84-'87 rims will not fit on the '89 and later 17" rim.
It's a different bolt pattern on the early vs. later FJ rotors.
So now in addition to your 17" rim you need the brake rotors to fit the rim.... which are the brake rotors for the '89 and later FJ. Stands to reason, right?
So now you have a '89 and later 17" rim and rotors to fit that rim, you can install the 17" rim and rotors on your early '84-'87 fork lowers.......But guess what?
Now your brake calipers will not bolt on the forks because the rotors are too big ....so now you need a adaptor plate to offset the calipers (good luck finding that) or you need a set of late model '89 or later fork lowers which have the correct mounting points for the calipers....which fit your brake rotors ....which fit the 17" rim.....got it?
:empathy2: well said pat, that's just how I did my 84 way back when, , guess he missed my comment about the fzr calipers. that bolt straight up to the 84 lowers , fancy twin spots too
So let me get this straight...
The FZR calipers fit the hard points on early '84-'87 fork lowers .....and....fit over the '89 and later 298mm rotors? I don't see how.
I remember checking years ago and I found that The FZR600 RR calipers are not available stateside..
The RR was a rare model even in Europe.
that's the tricky part, you get to keep the 84 front standard, wheel fork lowers disc ect , , not sure what year , but its fzr 400rr , has to be the rr model as its the only one with 83mm c/c of the mounting. bolts, , later fzr 400 had 90mm c/c bolt holes (popcorn)
Ok so the FZR400RR calipers will not fit over the 298mm late model FJ rotors....
.......Which fit the late model 17" rim......ad nasueam....
Interesting dilemma. I don't know if it's a stupid question, but is there a chance the rotors from the 84 could be modified to fit the new rim? New holes drilled to fit the new bolt pattern?
You seem to indicate that the adapter plate is hard to find; is it some specialty part that is no longer made and is kind of obscure, like aftermarket fairings or something? I had assumed it was just something in stock somewhere, I just didn't know how to look for it.
Any chance someone has one that can chime in?
I did see the comment about the FZR calipers, interesting, but if it wasn't much more trouble to just get blue dots, I figured that'd be superior. However, if fitting the blue dots is extensively complicated, I might just start looking for those fzr calipers instead. Any chance anyone has a source article talking about that, or remembers some kind of context that would help me search for it?
[edit: saw that last post. So the fzr400rr calipers bolt onto the original 16" rim and accompanying rotor, and so aren't what I'm looking for. Gotcha.]
Thanks again.
:dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash1: :dash1: :dash1: :dash1: :dash1: :dash1: :dash1: :ireful: :ireful: :ireful: :ireful: :ireful: :ireful: :ireful: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head: :scratch_one-s_head:
I tried, I got nothing...
Drilling new holes in your rotors and finding a-dapt-a plates for unobtainable calipers that won't work with an 89+ 17" front wheel...
Seems reasonable to me! :dash2: :dash2: :dash2: :dash2:
You either by an 89 FJ, or get the 89 front end to put on an older FJ.
It's been tried and tested by many FJ owners and is the preferred mod, if I'm not mistaken. :good:
Why in hell are you finding it necessary to reinvent the wheel? :dash1:
Oh, that's right, your researching possibilities! :empathy:
Ok, I'm going to be honest here, I really can't understand why you are getting so upset. I have an opportunity to get a 17" FJ rim, it comes with a box of FJ parts and a set of saddlebags. It does not come with forks. I have decided I would vastly prefer an 84/85. An 88/later front end is neither easy to find nor cheap, I imagine, so I'm just trying to see if there's a way to make do with what I have.
Why is this so frustrating to you?
In any case, everyone neglected to tell me, until Pat just a minute ago finally mentioned it, that there IS a difference in the forks, and that difference is their mounting points for calipers. My speculation was based on the assumption (unchallenged until an hour or two ago) that the forks were the same.
Sorry for trying? If you are so bothered, go somewhere else in the forum or ignore me, I'm not sending you private messages or something. Nor am I talking about or to you except to respond to your angry diatribe. Nor am I even saying something remotely offensive, really, I'm just trying to find a second option. Why? Because it's cheaper.
I understand getting the '89/later front end is the preferred mod. If an easy way to make it happen comes to pass, or I get a lot of extra cash, I'll be happy to do it! Otherwise, if there's a cheaper option that requires a little extra elbow grease and legwork, I'll gladly do that! (Yes, that includes the insanely difficult process of--gasp!--drilling holes!)
Yes, I'm researching possibilities. Are you two done throwing a hissy fit over nothing yet?
Now, for anyone isn't angry at me for trying to live within my means, is finding an adapter plate so scary? Or, worst case scenario, getting a set of lowers... What about the member who just had an unfortunate wreck recently; possibly his fork lowers are still fine and he'd be willing to sell them to me for a reasonable price and I could help him get some money towards another FJ.
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 06:36:10 PM
I want a bike that performs kick-ass and can be ridden 600 miles in a day if need be--and while that's an interesting balance, I lean towards performance over comfort. On top of that, the earlier models did look the best.
That description fits BOTH of my FJs. The performance difference is so slight that's you probably wouldn't notice it.
I've had the 1100/1200 discussion with Alf a few times over the years and it's just a difference of perception and opinion. One ride down a twisty road on the '93 was enough to convince me to try to "fix" my '85.
The '93 floated effortlessly into turns and allowed corrections without fighting me. The '85 (in stock form) was a truck by comparison. It required LOTS of countersteering pressure to maintain a lean and would try to standup if I applied any brake when leaned over. It was a night and day difference between the two bikes. Just like the night and day difference on my first ride with the '89 front wheel on my '85.
The improvement was even more noticeable because I was working on another (stock) '85 at the time when I finished the upgrade. Riding them back to back made the difference shockingly apparent.
Now, for the other stuff. I don't think the FZR400RR was imported into the US so good luck finding calipers from one of them. You can't interchange the brake rotors, the hub diameter is way different between the pre and post '89 models
DavidR.
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 10:18:40 PM
Ok, I'm going to be honest here, I really can't understand why you are getting so upset. I have an opportunity to get a 17" FJ rim, it comes with a box of FJ parts and a set of saddlebags. It does not come with forks. I have decided I would vastly prefer an 84/85. An 88/later front end is neither easy to find nor cheap, I imagine, so I'm just trying to see if there's a way to make do with what I have.
Why is this so frustrating to you?
In any case, everyone neglected to tell me, until Pat just a minute ago finally mentioned it, that there IS a difference in the forks, and that difference is their mounting points for calipers. My speculation was based on the assumption (unchallenged until an hour or two ago) that the forks were the same.
Sorry for trying? If you are so bothered, go somewhere else in the forum or ignore me, I'm not sending you private messages or something. Nor am I talking about or to you except to respond to your angry diatribe. Nor am I even saying something remotely offensive, really, I'm just trying to find a second option. Why? Because it's cheaper.
I understand getting the '89/later front end is the preferred mod. If an easy way to make it happen comes to pass, or I get a lot of extra cash, I'll be happy to do it! Otherwise, if there's a cheaper option that requires a little extra elbow grease and legwork, I'll gladly do that! (Yes, that includes the insanely difficult process of--gasp!--drilling holes!)
Yes, I'm researching possibilities. Are you two done throwing a hissy fit over nothing yet?
Now, for anyone isn't angry at me for trying to live within my means, is finding an adapter plate so scary? Or, worst case scenario, getting a set of lowers... What about the member who just had an unfortunate wreck recently; possibly his fork lowers are still fine and he'd be willing to sell them to me for a reasonable price and I could help him get some money towards another FJ.
Irishluck, is that you?? :unknown:
(popcorn) (popcorn) (popcorn)
Going by memory, the custom adapter plates were made for the early Vmax forks to fit the later R-1 blue spots and someone found that they just happened to fit the early FJ forks. Mind you, this was several years ago....
Start your search here: http://www.cycleoneoff.com/Index.html (http://www.cycleoneoff.com/Index.html)
Ask your adapter plate questions to them...not us.
QuoteThat description fits BOTH of my FJs. The performance difference is so slight that's you probably wouldn't notice it.
I've had the 1100/1200 discussion with Alf a few times over the years and it's just a difference of perception and opinion. One ride down a twisty road on the '93 was enough to convince me to try to "fix" my '85.
The '93 floated effortlessly into turns and allowed corrections without fighting me. The '85 (in stock form) was a truck by comparison. It required LOTS of countersteering pressure to maintain a lean and would try to standup if I applied any brake when leaned over. It was a night and day difference between the two bikes. Just like the night and day difference on my first ride with the '89 front wheel on my '85.
The improvement was even more noticeable because I was working on another (stock) '85 at the time when I finished the upgrade. Riding them back to back made the difference shockingly apparent.
Now, for the other stuff. I don't think the FZR400RR was imported into the US so good luck finding calipers from one of them. You can't interchange the brake rotors, the hub diameter is way different between the pre and post '89 models
DavidR.
Aye yai yai, it's reading posts like that that make me want to throw my hands up in the air, haha. I have bought into the Alf/Doc perspective for the time being, but I realize that I can't know without riding them--and I don't have them here to ride! So I'll just pick the one I 'feel' better about and run with it. And that's the story there, folks.
Any chance you can comment on acceleration beyond 8k between the two motors?
Can't interchange the rotors means drilling holes isn't enough, yes? Good to know. Thanks so much for your help, David.
QuoteIrishluck, is that you??
I'm tempted to assume that's an insult and that Irishluck was some former and disliked member, given some of my treatment here thus far... I'll just go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
QuoteGoing by memory, the custom adapter plates were made for the early Vmax forks to fit the later R-1 blue spots and someone found that they just happened to fit the early FJ forks. Mind you, this was several years ago....
Start your search here: http://www.cycleoneoff.com/Index.html (http://www.cycleoneoff.com/Index.html)
Ask your adapter plate questions to them...not us.
Thanks, Pat, that's just the kind of lead I was looking for. I appreciate it.
actually the only places I've asked about fzr calipers for myself are in the states , only reason I havnt bought them is price to ship them here , the UK also has them , , so unless they were a grey import to the states ?? I don't know but quite a few if you just ask around
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 10:44:04 PM
QuoteIrishluck, is that you??
I'm tempted to assume that's an insult and that Irishluck was some former and disliked member, given some of my treatment here thus far... I'll just go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt for now.
I'll return the benefit of the doubt, since you were quick to recognize that. However, the post of yours it followed was very similar in tone and content to several of his.
If you continue to disregard and/or question the (very) good info and advice you have been given (ad nauseum) in multiple threads, the frustration is likely to grow.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Don't piss on fin head to much. I have the same questions as here in BC I can get a major break in insurance cost for a stock apearing 25 year old bike
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on October 01, 2012, 10:23:08 PM
I've had the 1100/1200 discussion with Alf a few times over the years and it's just a difference of perception and opinion. One ride down a twisty road on the '93 was enough to convince me to try to "fix" my '85.
The '93 floated effortlessly into turns and allowed corrections without fighting me. The '85 (in stock form) was a truck by comparison. It required LOTS of countersteering pressure to maintain a lean and would try to standup if I applied any brake when leaned over. It was a night and day difference between the two bikes. Just like the night and day difference on my first ride with the '89 front wheel on my '85.
The improvement was even more noticeable because I was working on another (stock) '85 at the time when I finished the upgrade. Riding them back to back made the difference shockingly apparent.
DavidR.
Really is a curiosity the difference on perception by 2 people about the same thing. After a lot of mods and tricks and seeing that it was near impossible to get the same results with the 93 model that the rest of us with the 3CVs and 1TXs, my friend Joe sold me his bike and bought a 3CV. We refit the OEq in order to sell it, but I liked so much in STD form that I keep near 2 years. But I liked in order to sedate touring, everyday riding and two up. For properly fast riding I own my 3 CV
Riding the STD 3XW side to side with my friend Mingo´s STD 1TX the feelings was like yours ... only than opposite. The 1TX feels (I ride it actually a lot of times) nimble, light, small, you can apply the brakes with absolute confidence inside the turns until the appex... The 93 was a bus in its company.
I don´t know why so much difference between us. Do your 11 wear radial tyres?. The first series are different beasts with radial tyres, improving the bike no way
QuoteFor properly fast riding I own my 3 CV...
...Do your 11 wear radial tyres?. The first series are different beasts with radial tyres, improving the bike no way
Actually, about the radial tires... I read some places that you MUST NOT use radial tires, as these bikes weren't tested with them. Then I see others mentioning it casually. Can someone clarify that?
I'm caught off guard that you suggest the 3CV for 'properly fast riding'. I'm not even going to ask, though.
Yes, radial tires are BAD. :dash1: :sarcastic:
Just like you're not supposed to use them on cars built prior to 1975! :wacko2:
Quote from: fintip on October 02, 2012, 04:24:52 AM
QuoteFor properly fast riding I own my 3 CV...
...Do your 11 wear radial tyres?. The first series are different beasts with radial tyres, improving the bike no way
Actually, about the radial tires... I read some places that you MUST NOT use radial tires, as these bikes weren't tested with them. Then I see others mentioning it casually. Can someone clarify that?
I'm caught off guard that you suggest the 3CV for 'properly fast riding'. I'm not even going to ask, though.
En Spain we say "más sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo". A free translation would be: Satan knows more due to the experience that the time give than for being Satan
Due to my web I know 15 FJ owners in person, and I´ve contacted and given my advice to tens more. Each time that the people has changed from bias-ply to radial tyres the bike has improved a lot. I know that the Doc recommends bias-ply with the OE rims, but he is WRONG. Sorry if I don´t look humble and I´m sure Doc knows infinitum more about bikes and riding than me, but in this issue I´m categorical and dogmatic: NO, NO, AND NOT. I´ve tested so many tyres and the owners have passed me so much experience, that there is no theme. I have not found any single owner that have told me than bias-ply are better than radials in his FJ
Only if your FJ fit 3" OE rim the correct tyre is 110/70/17. When appear the OE Dunlop was very narrow, a real 110, not a 120, and it was designed specifically for the FJ
This is from the Spanish mag Motociclismo, around 1986. Like I´m everyday practising my English here I leave it the article to you to practice your Spanish :nyam1:
The test is a comparative between the FJ 11 and 12 models. The head letters say: Michelin Radials: the third FJ. And speaks about the difference is so abysmal with radial tyres than in fact it is like to ride a 3rd bike with stronger chassis, harder suspension... and less brakes!!!!!!
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/fj1200alf/MichelinRadial.jpg)
Quote from: fintip on October 02, 2012, 04:24:52 AM
I'm caught off guard that you suggest the 3CV for 'properly fast riding'. I'm not even going to ask, though.
Only to say that with different exhaust, rear set pegs and central stand and cowl dismounted the next thing that touch the tarmac is one of the detachable chassis downtube. No good, no bueno :bad:
Quote from: Alf on October 02, 2012, 08:03:26 AM
Only if your FJ fit 3" OE rim the correct tyre is 110/70/17. When appear the OE Dunlop was very narrow, a real 110, not a 120, and it was designed specifically for the FJ
It's true that the original tires measured a good deal narrower than their spec would indicate, but at least one manufacturer's fitment listing shows 120/70's as acceptable on a 3.0x17 wheel. Of course, I can't find it right now, but I know that I've seen it in the past. Obviously, yamaha wouldn't have indicated this originally as those tires didn't exist back then.
I'm a big supporter of radials as well. Bias ply technology hasn't changed in the past 20 years nearly as much as radials have. Heck, in the past 10 years radials have changed dramatically (for the better!).
With that said, and while facing directly the original poster: None of the questions being asked are new. There's a search function nearish the top right of your screen (as well as the option to use a google search that includes insite:fjowners.com) and you can find a wealth of information on various combinations that do and do not work. The only thing that determines which is the best option is what your expectations are and what parts you can find available at a reasonable price.
Michelin Radials: the third FJ. And speaks about the difference is so abysmal with radial tyres than in fact it is like to ride a 3rd bike with stronger chassis, harder suspension... and less brakes!!!!!!
Yeah right, just like "full face helmets caused a spate of broken necks when introduced and should be banned".
"Give me a good drum over a discs anyday".
"Single front discs cause the bike to veer under heavy braking and wear the tyre on one side".
"Kawa triples with 2 exhausts one side and a single on the other corner differently L and R".
"Hydraulic brakes have no place on bikes and are dangerous - what if it fails".
and more recently....
"ABS is dangerous, you can't lay the bike down to avoid an accident". duh, I thought throwing your bike down the road on its side was an accident.
All these views were expressed in print at some time by experts.
And, we all know REAL men turn off / disconnect the modern electronic wizardry on bikes because THEY can outride it!
Noel
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 10:18:40 PM
Yes, I'm researching possibilities...
This "research" involved a bunch of hypotheses with no effort to design an experiment and collect data. You have asked for opinions and then, without your own data and basing your conclusions on others posts or crap you've read somewhere, thrown those opinions back to the crowd dismissively. Then you proceed down an incredibly ridiculous path of custom machining and bracket fabrication (again, all hypothesis) and get defensive, blaming the crowd for not telling you this was going to be a problem...
The "Irishluck" gentleman did much the same and, understandably, pissed some members of the crowd off to no end. Think about the reactions you've elicited through time and you'll see, the forum is full of knowledge/experience and opinion. Your task is to solicit the former without pissing on the latter... so far I'd say its a FAIL.
One basic issue you have is you don't own an FJ and any stated opinion on your part is going to be discounted heavily based on that, at least among the crowd that has bought, ridden, modified, ridden some more, modified some more, learned new stuff from buds at a rally, modified some more, sold that FJ and bought another, modified some more... Have your opinions and act on them, then tell us what you did and how it is working out vs telling us what you're going to do. I'm not going to defend my opinions for you and I think others have grown tired of this activity as well.
Have you ever heard the criticism that "you're all hat and no cattle"... I think that's your basic problem in FJ land. If you own an FJ and are looking for help, information, parts, tools, etc... you're in the right place. If you're trying to be a contentious troll, you're doing a pretty good job of that... I'll cut you the benefit of the doubt however and assume you're really trying to buy something, but would recommend you take the data you have and make your decision.
Frank
Quote from: andyb on October 02, 2012, 08:22:23 AM
With that said, and while facing directly the original poster: None of the questions being asked are new. There's a search function nearish the top right of your screen (as well as the option to use a google search that includes insite:fjowners.com) and you can find a wealth of information on various combinations that do and do not work. The only thing that determines which is the best option is what your expectations are and what parts you can find available at a reasonable price.
Yes, but where is the fun? :morning1:
Quote from: ribbert on October 02, 2012, 09:41:34 AM
Yeah right, just like "full face helmets caused a spate of broken necks when introduced and should be banned".
Probably caused by rider's turning their heads around to try and see out of that tiny window
"Give me a good drum over a discs anyday".
Well, if the drum was the Norton twin leading shoe with huge scoop vs the early Lockheed disk they offered as an option in '72+, then above is a true statement.
"Kawa triples with 2 exhausts one side and a single on the other corner differently L and R".
Had nothing to do with the exhausts. It was caused by the flexxy flyer frame.
"Hydraulic brakes have no place on bikes and are dangerous - what if it fails".
Result is about the same as if the cable snaps
"ABS is dangerous, you can't lay the bike down to avoid an accident". duh, I thought throwing your bike down the road on its side was an accident.
ABS is dangerous. Some folks believe it is magic and will prevent them from hitting anything.
Do you think that's what Nicky 69's problem was in Spain?
Noel, I agree with your points, just had to point out some exceptions :-)
Arnie
Quote from: ribbert on October 02, 2012, 09:41:34 AM
Michelin Radials: the third FJ. And speaks about the difference is so abysmal with radial tyres than in fact it is like to ride a 3rd bike with stronger chassis, harder suspension... and less brakes!!!!!!
Yeah right, just like "full face helmets caused a spate of broken necks when introduced and should be banned".
Noel
Yesterday, one of the supervisores at work, (a Hardly rider) was relating a story of a rider going down the day before after hitting a patch of spilled grain (harvest time here in Iowa) and hit a concrete embankment, resulting in head trama/ brain injury, and another fellow asked, "Was he wearing a helmet?" and the supervisor responded with, "Christ no, he would have broken his neck, then!"
What the fuck is wrong with these Hardly guys?
Geez!!
Leon
Quote from: 1tinindian on October 02, 2012, 01:15:20 PM
Quote from: ribbert on October 02, 2012, 09:41:34 AM
Michelin Radials: the third FJ. And speaks about the difference is so abysmal with radial tyres than in fact it is like to ride a 3rd bike with stronger chassis, harder suspension... and less brakes!!!!!!
Yeah right, just like "full face helmets caused a spate of broken necks when introduced and should be banned".
Noel
Yesterday, one of the supervisores at work, (a Hardly rider) was relating a story of a rider going down the day before after hitting a patch of spilled grain (harvest time here in Iowa) and hit a concrete embankment, resulting in head trama/ brain injury, and another fellow asked, "Was he wearing a helmet?" and the supervisor responded with, "Christ no, he would have broken his neck, then!"
What the fuck is wrong with these Hardly guys?
Geez!!
Leon
Maybe the skull is acting as a dampener as it cracks and caves in reducing the energy that is transferred to the neck. Seems like a fair trade, if you think like that you are not really using your head anyway.
I wonder how so many racers go down and not only do they not break their neck but get back up on the bike and continue to race?
Quote from: ribbert on October 02, 2012, 09:41:34 AM
Michelin Radials: the third FJ. And speaks about the difference is so abysmal with radial tyres than in fact it is like to ride a 3rd bike with stronger chassis, harder suspension... and less brakes!!!!!!
Yeah right, just like "full face helmets caused a spate of broken necks when introduced and should be banned".
"Give me a good drum over a discs anyday".
"Single front discs cause the bike to veer under heavy braking and wear the tyre on one side".
"Kawa triples with 2 exhausts one side and a single on the other corner differently L and R".
"Hydraulic brakes have no place on bikes and are dangerous - what if it fails".
and more recently....
"ABS is dangerous, you can't lay the bike down to avoid an accident". duh, I thought throwing your bike down the road on its side was an accident.
All these views were expressed in print at some time by experts.
And, we all know REAL men turn off / disconnect the modern electronic wizardry on bikes because THEY can outride it!
Noel
funny because its true , I remember not long ago about the tyre wear single disc topic , , now that was good reading
no helmes because they look stupid, block your vision, impeachment of hearing, colours are ( gay ) woops sorry not that gay the happy gay dig dig dig , got myself out :lol: and a full face will save you from getting facial scars, and chics dig scars , , other than that I got nothing ,, wear your gear boys and girls , stops you looking like street pizza with a mushed head
http://youtu.be/xGyKBFCd_u4 (http://youtu.be/xGyKBFCd_u4)
But I digress....
Dan
Quote from: fintip on October 01, 2012, 10:44:04 PM
Any chance you can comment on acceleration beyond 8k between the two motors?
In all honesty, I don't think I can comment on any performance difference beyond 8K. In the 27 years that I've been riding FJs, I don't recall ever "needing" to turn the motor that high.
I don't drag race as that takes way too much skill that I don't have.
Any nimrod can twist a throttle on a straight road. That's the likeliest place to get popped for a nice fat speeding ticket, so I tend to keep the straightaway speeds to a more sane level.
Riding twisty roads seldom requires use of the entire rev range. Given the FJs considerable torque, only a small fraction of the rev range is needed to run through the curves at an "entertaining" pace.
If you're intending on frequently banging off the rev limiter, trple digit speeds and all-out braking for the curves, then I don't think you'll be doing it very often. You'll either lose your license or be DEAD.
If there is a difference between the 1100 and 1200 above 8K, then I'll probably never know it. I certainly don't need it to ride at the pace.
DavidR.
That's good to hear, David. The FJ will certainly be the most powerful bike I've ever ridden (similar weight, 1.5 times the horsepower of my current bike), and I have never gone above 115 mph in any vehicle I've driven (and probably less than that; my speedo only goes to 85, being an '81, so I can't be sure).
That being said, while in the states I won't risk getting a ticket like that, some roads it is expected that you go 90 mph in Mexico here at least, and it is not even frowned upon to go even 110mph when hurrying, so... There are times... Like my 15 hour drive a week ago that was over 600 miles... Would have definitely liked to have a higher top cruising speed available, was definitely pushing the bike as hard as I safely could for that kind of distance, cruising at 90mph or so for most of that. (Would have meant less night driving, which is the real danger in Mexico.)
All that being said, thinking about it, I bet even cruising at 115 on this bike isn't 8k in 5th, no? Anyways, I highly doubt I'll take the bike to anything near its limit for quite some time. I do have a cousin with an '01 Ninja 600, though, and I do intend on someday having some fun and going to a closed track with him, when I get the suspension up to spec.
Never said "frequently", no reason to assume I'm a hooligan based on my wanting the best possible tuned engine...
But knowing that you get up there so rarely that you can't comment on it does make that seem a little less relevant, so I'm glad to have heard that.
There's an '86 I'm in serious discussions over, by the way, for anyone who was "wondering". I'd rather an '89 or an '84 (ideal front end or ideal-for-me-engine+bodywork+lightweight), but it's a good bike at the right price in good shape, just needing electrical work supposedly, and its a fair compromise of what I want and I know I'll enjoy it. I'll start a thread about it, actually.
As to the Harley/Helmet discussion... I never cease to be amazed... It's like they write the south park episodes for them. "No, then his neck would be broken!"
You just can't write this stuff. Honestly, I find riding without a full face helmet unpleasant unless it's very low speed; wind and noise suck, you know?
You do realize that the speed limits in Mexico are in KPH, and NOT MPH, don't you? I live 60 miles from the border, been down there many times over my 54 year life, and have NEVER seen a Mexican speed limit over 60 MPH.... :dash2:
Not the listed speed limit, but I had my host in Monterrey tell me I shouldn't take such-and-such toll road because I cruised at 'only' 130kph, and people go faster there.
15 hours of straight riding at about that speed, no problems. I was passed a couple times. I even passed 3 cops, though I think I had toned it down around them a bit because I was closer to towns--but definitely still 'speeding'. The posted speed limit is absurdly low most places here.
As far as never seeing a speed limit here over 60, do some more driving... 100 and 110 are common on the toll roads.
100kph = 62MpH..... 110 is still under 70kph.
It must have been a mistake, but you said 60, not 70. Fair misunderstanding on that line.
I know this isn't a popular topic with some because it's not just the common, straightforward front-end swap. If this topic makes you feel like this: :ireful:
Then please, make us both happier, and skip this post. I don't want to bother you. I have no intentions of irritating you. :flag_of_truce:
That being said, I'll continue for anyone else who doesn't mind my looking for a cheaper alternative.
So I have been doing some research. Pat supplied me with the correct vendor for the brake caliper adaptor plates. He emailed me back and said he does indeed make such an adapter plate.
What I do not know (and I have emailed to ask him, but I doubt he will know) is whether this adapter plate will allow an R1 caliper to fit onto the rotor of an '87 rim or onto the rotor of an '89 rim.
Does anyone know
A) Which rim?
or
B) How I can figure this out myself (i.e., what the relevant measurements I need to search for are?)?
or
C) What I should search for to figure this out?
For the record, if anyone searches for this thread in the future, the pair of adapter plates go for $140 at the moment.
R1 calipers bolt up the same as 89 fj and have the same sweep / reach over the disc, cant vouch for 87 , but im guessing they may be the same as 84 discs :scratch_one-s_head:,, so what company make the adaptors
87 is the same as the 84. The company that makes them is the one Pat gave. I did not find the product listed anywhere on their webpage, but I sent an email and got a response saying that they do indeed make a bracket to fit R1 bluespots onto the Vmax, and he believed it would work.
The link is on Page 2 of this thread, I believe, company is called "one off cycle" or something. They do mostly Vmax custom work.
No worries, thanks mate,,
rod :good2:
Just updating this in case someone else searches it in the future--the bracket is for fitting an R1 bluespot onto the rotors that go with a 16" rim.
Now I'm just wondering (I know nothing about rotors) if it's possible to find some rotor out there that will maintain the profile of the 16" rim's rotor and will fit onto the 17" rim.
I have no idea how difficult that is, though, and it may end up being a dead end. The other option is to find some other adapter plate out there that will fit the mount point on the 87/earlier forks and hold a caliper so that it will fit the rotor of a 17" rim.
(If anyone has a lead on either of those possibilities, I'd be glad to hear, but I have a feeling I'm breaking new ground here... We'll see.)
I think one very important thing is being overlooked here.....IMO the only really bad handling characteristic of the early models with the 16" wheel is wanting to stand up when the brakes are applied while cornering..... upgrading to a 17" wheel eliminates this trait completely as well as reducing unsprung weight off the front end which actually improves the handling well above the previously mentioned issue.
brakes are brakes until you get to the threshold of lockup where the blue spots paired with a 14mm master give you much finer control..... I can bring smoke from my front tire without actually locking the front wheel... that kind of brake power on a 16" wheel could really be bad should one stumble upon trouble in the middle of a corner.
I'm not gonna bash a pioneer spirit but i honestly believe your money would be better spent going another direction.
Kookaloo!
Quote from: racerman_27410 on October 04, 2012, 10:04:16 PM
I think one very important thing is being overlooked here.....IMO the only really bad handling characteristic of the early models with the 16" wheel is wanting to stand up when the brakes are applied while cornering..... upgrading to a 17" wheel eliminates this trait completely as well as reducing unsprung weight off the front end which actually improves the handling well above the previously mentioned issue.
Kookaloo!
I beg to differ on the point of stand-up while breaking in a corner. I owned a 86' Honda CBR 600 (Hurricane) fresh off the show room floor with 17" wheels front and back (I could of had an FJ, :dash2: :dash2:) . It was the SHIT at the time. It still stood up in the corners when braking. My 86' while stock stood up in the corners while breaking.... WTF??? The change in geometry as weight is shifted has more effect on stand-up than a little weight savings or wheel diameter. The RPM valves control the dive (change in geometry) so much that dive is greatly reduced and with it the stand-up effect. The effect is still present but reduced. I feel way more confident in using more front brake than ever before. As much as I beat myself up for misjudging a corner and needing brakes to stay in the lane, I love having that real anti-dive control of the RPM valves. That is all for now....
the reduced weight of the 17" front wheel imparts less gyroscopic energy and makes steering easier...... i rode my FJ stock once upon a time also!
what does a honda have to do with it?
KOokaloo! :good2:
Anyone that already had 17" front have any experience with before and after effects of the RPM fork vales while breaking in the corners??? Maybe I am feeling the effects of the 17" wheel as I did this at the same time.... Or the Blue dots are to blame.... Really, anyone?
It's an interesting discussion, actually. My front end will be stock, and I'm curious what just putting a radial, modern brakes, and rpm valves will do to the handling--if the 17" wheel is as big a factor as everyone thinks or not when all things are accounted for.
Can't hurt for sure! Too bad the shock upgrade looks to be about $350 in parts all things told, if I'm not mistaken. Makes me want to consider Alf's suggestion of just putting in springs for a while... But even that'd be $120, so if I go that far, might as well go all the way, no?
<<<<<<<<well my 84 pictured started standard, 16" wheels , forks springs ect, first upgrade was 89 forks with progressive springs, 17" wheel, , handling and steering was much improved, , just recently changed the rear to 17x 5.5" gsxr rear, and Honda f4 I shock , turned in so much easier , held a line well and changes direction mid corner , , then came the 17x3.5" front, improvement was so much better than the 3" rim ,, and to compare, I have a standard 89 here , its like riding a tourer fully loaded , , hope to fit rpm fork valves sometime soon, should be even better ,
I´m with Pat: I ride habitually the 86 bike of a friend of mine and if there would be modern tyres choice I would adapt a 16" front wheel to my FJ
When I bought new my 1st 1200 3 CV after my 1100 I was completely frustrated about how slow the handling was. And yes, you can have the brake applied with the 16" inside the corner without problems
I think that this effect is due to the tyres fitted, because I don´t have that problem in my 16" CBX 750. The fast handling and the flickability are marvellous
Once again, I'll disagree with Alf with my own experience. (Just curious Alf, is your friend running a 120 or 110 tire on his 16 inch wheel?)
I've posted this many times. The SINGLE MOST IMPRESSIVE mod I've done to my '85 FJ was upgrade to the 17 inch FJ front wheel.
Prior to this mod (and it was the ONLY mod I did at the time) my '85 was SHIT to ride. It was a truck and I quit riding it because my '93 handled SO much better. I was very curious why the '93 was so much better. I took a chance and gathered the parts for the upgrade and it TOTALLY TRANSFORMED the bike. Chris P. where are you to back me up?
At the time I completed this mod, I was working on another stock '85 FJ and riding them back-to-back was AMAZING. The stock FJ was shit. If I had to give up all my mods except for one, I'd keep the front wheel.
I'm with Frank on the brakes. With Ferodo pads, my stock '85 brakes were killer. The monoblocs with a stock master cylinder are not as good as what I had. Although, I changed pads (for the first time) and cleaned all the caliper pistons last week and the few test rides I've had show the brakes working really good so far.
Everyone needs to remember, it's not just the wheel. It's the wheel/tire combo along with the chassis geometry, so you can't compare a different bike with a 16 or 17 inch wheel, that's apples and oranges. Also, I typically brake and set my entry speed well before the corner, so there's minimal weight transfer during the corner. My stock FJ just did not want to stay leaned over, brakes or not. I had to hold it down and it was even worse if I needed to brake while leaned over.
DavidR.
My friend bike fits a 120 tyre.
I know that compare 2 different bikes are comparing appels with oranges, but in a way or another all the 16" fitted bikes were accused of similar behaviour. Curiously the last tests at Practical Sportsbikes mag with 16" fitted bikes repeat the same history: no bike replicate that behaviour when they test them... would it be due to modern tyres?. I´m sure of that
I´m sure the difference is on tyres: with radial tyres fitted all the FJs that I´ve ridden feel perfect. In fact, tomorrow I´m going to have a ride with my friend Mingo and I can not wait to ride his bike again. What were your tyres?
Before I changed the wheel, I was running Metzeler MEZ-2 radials front and rear. In my opinion, the radial tire did not make a noticeable difference.
That was my first and only radial on that 16 inch wheel so I don't know if different tire brands would have made any difference. I do know that I've run a number of different tire brands on the 17 inch front wheels and it feels pretty much the same regardless of the brand.
I guess it's just a mystery. :-)
DavidR.
You know, this is really, truly amazing. I will probably be referring to this conversation as an example of the astonishing power of the human subjective experience.
Anyways, obviously it varies person-to-person as a matter of taste, and isn't 100% objective. I'll just have to figure out what works for me.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on October 05, 2012, 01:35:47 PM
Before I changed the wheel, I was running Metzeler MEZ-2 radials front and rear. In my opinion, the radial tire did not make a noticeable difference.
That was my first and only radial on that 16 inch wheel so I don't know if different tire brands would have made any difference. I do know that I've run a number of different tire brands on the 17 inch front wheels and it feels pretty much the same regardless of the brand.
I guess it's just a mystery. :-)
DavidR.
I had the same problem as you in my FZR 1000 with that Metzelers fitted. In fact, so bad was my experience that never I´ve fitted a Metzeler again in any of my bikes. It is a very directional tyre and it is possible that fitted in a 16" is more exacerbated that feeling of stand up when braking
I think part of the mystery is solved... until you try again any FJ 85-87 with 16" front
Quote from: Alf on October 05, 2012, 02:42:10 PM
I had the same problem as you in my FZR 1000 with that Metzelers fitted. In fact, so bad was my experience that never I´ve fitted a Metzeler again in any of my bikes. It is a very directional tyre and it is possible that fitted in a 16" is more exacerbated that feeling of stand up when braking
I think part of the mystery is solved... until you try again any FJ 85-87 with 16" front
As I said, the performance of the radial tire was no better than the bias tires I was running before. The other '85 I had at the time I finished the conversion was also a truck. Yeah, the front MEZ-2 was crap. Besides the handling issues, it had a coast-down wobble between 50 to 40 mph. The Dunlop D205 was a much better tire (of course it was a 17 inch wheel by that time). However, the 16 inch MEZ-2 for the rear was a very good tire. In fact, I've currently got one on my '92 and even though it is 10 years old (yikes!!) it continues to perform much better than it has a right to.
No intention of going back to a 16 inch front wheel. I'm perfectly happy with my current setup.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on October 05, 2012, 03:27:13 PM
As I said, the performance of the radial tire was no better than the bias tires I was running before. The other '85 I had at the time I finished the conversion was also a truck. Yeah, the front MEZ-2 was crap. Besides the handling issues, it had a coast-down wobble between 50 to 40 mph. The Dunlop D205 was a much better tire (of course it was a 17 inch wheel by that time). However, the 16 inch MEZ-2 for the rear was a very good tire. In fact, I've currently got one on my '92 and even though it is 10 years old (yikes!!) it continues to perform much better than it has a right to.
No intention of going back to a 16 inch front wheel. I'm perfectly happy with my current setup.
[/quote]DavidR.
[/quote]
Along with all the other stuff the Govt. is trying to force on us here, front number plates, high vis clothing etc. they now propose to make tyres unroadworthy after 5 years regardless of condition.
Quote from: RichBaker on September 29, 2012, 04:55:24 AM
The early bikes, pre-'89, had anti-dive on them. It's pretty much useless and adds complexity unnecessarilly. They can be be removed and drilled block-off plates installed (needs the drilled channels for fork oil to flow). They also have different spacing for the caliper mounts, so the monobloc calipers won't bolt-on, you'd need adapter plates.
They are 41mm, so the RPM inserts should fit and function correctly.
Thanks to the FJ Forum in general, and this post in particular. I'm skilled in computer use but have zero ability fixing bikes; my motorcycle mechanic is just the opposite -- a genius with the bikes but he doesn't like computers too much. So he offered to remove the anti-dive from my '85 FJ1100 which somehow jogged my memory for the discussions here about it. I gleaned enough from this one line to tell him to hold off on "just removing the bolt" -- when I called him to say that, he too was extremely grateful (and his garage remains free of fork oil :)).
I'm still not sure what the next steps are for A/D removal but at least avoided catastrophe for now.
Thanks again,
Jerry
Quote from: Jeraldo on May 28, 2013, 11:11:49 AM
I'm still not sure what the next steps are for A/D removal but at least avoided catastrophe for now.
Jerry-
You have a few options. If you want to completely remove them you'll need a replacement block-off plate like this:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/FJ1100-fork-anti-dive-block-off-plates-FJ-1100-1200-clear-anodized-/00/s/NDAwWDUwMA==/$T2eC16dHJG8E9nyfpmzJBQ9DS43Wgg~~60_1.JPG)
found on
eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=fj1100+block+off&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=fj1100+block+off+plate&_sacat=0).
Alternatively, another CHEAP way to defeat the A/D units is to drill a few holes in the damper rod above the tapered spindle shoulder. With these holes drilled, you can leave the A/D units untouched.
Lastly, and perhaps the best of all worlds, (if not the cheapest) Install some
RPM Fork Valves (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ARPMForkValve&cat=33).
You can leave the AD installed and remove the top portion for the brake system and have a markedly improved suspension to boot.
Or you could attempt to make you're own fork valves or block-off plate, I guess...
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTE8ancuKXXGEOuZ1eK5RTpnSv6prMlbBdZz8GkVNbxSNB7PhPSUQ)
Dan
En Spain we say "más sabe el diablo por viejo que por diablo". A free translation would be: Satan knows more due to the experience that the time give than for being Satan
Due to my web I know 15 FJ owners in person, and I´ve contacted and given my advice to tens more. Each time that the people has changed from bias-ply to radial tyres the bike has improved a lot. I know that the Doc recommends bias-ply with the OE rims, but he is WRONG. Sorry if I don´t look humble and I´m sure Doc knows infinitum more about bikes and riding than me, but in this issue I´m categorical and dogmatic: NO, NO, AND NOT. I´ve tested so many tyres and the owners have passed me so much experience, that there is no theme. I have not found any single owner that have told me than bias-ply are better than radials in his FJ
Only if your FJ fit 3" OE rim the correct tyre is 110/70/17. When appear the OE Dunlop was very narrow, a real 110, not a 120, and it was designed specifically for the FJ
This is from the Spanish mag Motociclismo, around 1986. Like I´m everyday practising my English here I leave it the article to you to practice your Spanish :nyam1:
The test is a comparative between the FJ 11 and 12 models. The head letters say: Michelin Radials: the third FJ. And speaks about the difference is so abysmal with radial tyres than in fact it is like to ride a 3rd bike with stronger chassis, harder suspension... and less brakes!!!!!!
(http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m589/fj1200alf/MichelinRadial.jpg)
[/quote]
Espain eez deeferent! Gracias por el articulo caballero -- muy interesante. Compre' un '85 FJ 1100 el año pasado, con los Dunlop bias-ply. Acabo de pedir unos Metzler radials -- vamos a ver como son.
Un saludo
Quote from: Dan Filetti on May 28, 2013, 01:32:47 PM
Quote from: Jeraldo on May 28, 2013, 11:11:49 AM
I'm still not sure what the next steps are for A/D removal but at least avoided catastrophe for now.
Jerry-
You have a few options. If you want to completely remove them you'll need a replacement block-off plate like this:
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/FJ1100-fork-anti-dive-block-off-plates-FJ-1100-1200-clear-anodized-/00/s/NDAwWDUwMA==/$T2eC16dHJG8E9nyfpmzJBQ9DS43Wgg~~60_1.JPG)
found on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=fj1100+block+off&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0&_nkw=fj1100+block+off+plate&_sacat=0).
Alternatively, another CHEAP way to defeat the A/D units is to drill a few holes in the damper rod above the tapered spindle shoulder. With these holes drilled, you can leave the A/D units untouched.
Lastly, and perhaps the best of all worlds, (if not the cheapest) Install some RPM Fork Valves (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3ARPMForkValve&cat=33).
You can leave the AD installed and remove the top portion for the brake system and have a markedly improved suspension to boot.
Or you could attempt to make you're own fork valves or block-off plate, I guess...
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTE8ancuKXXGEOuZ1eK5RTpnSv6prMlbBdZz8GkVNbxSNB7PhPSUQ)
Dan
Thanks Dan,
I've spent the morning reading through the various commentaries about removing the A/D. There's an old saw that goes: put two lawyers in a room and you'll get at least 3 opinions but that's nothing compared with the fervor experienced here on this one. For all the commentaries, I don't have the savvy to make the judgment whether its worth the effort. I'm changing out the worn-out Dunlops that came with the bike for some Metzler bias-plys; the mechanic thinks that it may be enough, along with fixing the nightmare up front (won't go into the details there to protect the guilty prior mechanic(s)), even though he is the one that originally suggested I'd be happier removing the A/D.
At this point, I'm going to ride the bike a little bit and see how it is -- my prior bikes were a '73 CB 500, then a '96 Seca II so at first I thought it was simply inexperience with a bigger bike; it didn't just want to stand up in a corner, it would BOUNCE around the corners. (I ride in upstate NY and there are some big sweepers that I took effortlessly at 85 mph on the Seca II that were downright frightening at 55 mph on the FJ 1100).
Hola Jeraldo!
Bienvenido al forum
Mejor unos Avon o muuuucho mejor, los nuevos ContiAttack q han sacado para medidas de FJ
We put the plates in pics on out 86. They look ok but you are stillimited to the old brakes. Would not do again; just get 89 forks and calipers or BD calipers.
My opinion.... :good:
Quote from: Alf on May 28, 2013, 02:01:21 PM
Hola Jeraldo!
Bienvenido al forum
Mejor unos Avon o muuuucho mejor, los nuevos ContiAttack q han sacado para medidas de FJ
Gracias. Los Metzlers fueron los unicos que pude encontrar facilmente, rapido, y a precio razonable.
me parece que con estes arreglos, me gustaria mas el moto; asi, en el proximo año, tendre que hacer el modificacion a rueda 17".
thanks. The Metzlers were the only tires I could quickly and easily find, at a reasonable cost, that fit the stock wheel.
It seems to me that with the proposed changes/additions, I will be much happier with the bike. If so, next year, I'll have to make the switch to the 17" front wheel.
Jeraldo,
In the discussion above, some said the Metzlers were terrible on the FJ, and that some bias-ply Dunlops were better than those radials. The Avon AV45/46 are so much better that it is worth it to wait--or at least, don't judge radials by the metzlers.
Bienvenido al forum!
Continental have just released a new radial tyre specifically designed to 80-90 motorbikes, a new Conti-attack.
For tires I ran the Avon AV45/46 on my stock 86 with really good results. I like the corners and twisty mountain roads so cornering is no problem for them. I would also recommend to run the 110 and not the 120 on the front, the 120 is too pinched and you get a smaller contact patch. Now I have 17" both front and back and run the Conti Motion tires. I have over 600 miles on them and they are working as well as the Avons and might even last longer. I also ran the Dunlop Q2s with good results, but for the price I can't justify them unless I need a track day tire.
Quote from: Alf on May 29, 2013, 02:35:03 AM
Continental have just released a new radial tyre specifically designed to 80-90 motorbikes, a new Conti-attack.
Having tried most of the dual compound tyres and not particularly liking any of them, I'm on my third set of Conti Attack 2's and I love them.
My tyre man told me these new ones (assuming we are talking about the same tyre) were more for heavy and powerful bikes rather than era specific.
Unless something else good comes out in the next few months, these new Conti's will be my next tyres.
Noel
Alf, if I'm not mistaken, ContiAttacks only come for 17" wheels, no? He mentioned he runs an 86 without the upgrade.
Continental have a new Contiroadattack designed for classical bikes. The sizes introduced depends on the country
And Continental is introducing the revamped the TKV11/12 again