After sitting for 16 years my recently acquired '86 FJ is almost ready to be put back on the road where it belongs. The bike has 12K original miles and in very nice condition. Since the bike sat for such a long period of time I noticed that the current chain lube is very sticky, kind of caked on grungy. No rust or excessive slop.
Should I degrease the chain before I lube it with fresh chain lube? I don't want to damage the chain o-rings. I purchased a can of Bel Ray chain lube which is O-ring safe.
Thanks in advance.
Ozz
(Glen)
I would degrease it with a kerosene and a stiff nylon brush before lubing. No sence in trapping the old dried out lube and gunk in to grind away at your sprockets.
You can also clean with WD-40 and a rag. I wash it afterwards with a little Dawn and water, and spray it down with a hose. Then dry and lube. You should lube every few hindered miles. I would also take a good look at the sprocket and chain to see if the your sprocket grooves have become elongated. If so, you may want to start saving for a new sprocket and chain. Personally, I would start doing so regardless and update to a modern 530 chain and sprocket set up.
Have fun.
Later, Phil
Harbour Freight has great prices on the consumables like brushes. A three pack of brushes is under a dollar. I also clean with WD-40, a rag or 10, and the softest brushes. Don't wanna damage those o-rings and its easier than you think.
I prefer one of the wax impregnated chain lubes because they don't generally allow MUCH grime to get into the chain. My favorite chain lube is Champion, which is also quite rare (only some Walmarts--and I loathe Wal-mart.)
Chain maintenance is one of those weird habits I've taken to. If I clean NOTHING else, the chain is never neglected.
Chain maintenance is one of those weird habits I've taken to. If I clean NOTHING else, the chain is never neglected.
[/quote]
That's what is wrong the FZ gets lubed once or twice between oil changes :rofl2: :rofl2:
I wouldn't use WD-40 on a chain.
If the chain is really dirty I use either kerosene or ATF and a soft toothbrush, then I spray down with a chain cleaner. For light cleanings I just use the chain cleaner. After everything is dry, I lube the chain with Honda chain lube.
Be sure to remove the front sprocket cover. You'll be amazed at how much crap builds up in there.
Quote from: pdxfj on August 16, 2009, 12:14:29 PM
Be sure to remove the front sprocket cover. You'll be amazed at how much crap builds up in there.
I'd think the moving chain itself would keep things from getting
too bad in there... :P
Ozz,
Try cleaning & lubing, but this might not work. I had a chain some years ago with a few seized links. I replaced it but put the old one in a container of engine oil. About a year later I removed it and it was still seized. I cut the seized link off to find it dry & rusty inside. Seems that if water gets in the O rings stop lube getting in.
Stuart
Looks like most are going with the kerosene cleaning method. Where can i buy a small amount of kerosene? I have no other use for this stuff. Thanks for the advice .
Ozz
Hardware stores often have it. In a pinch coleman fuel works too.
I to am rather paticular about the state of my chain and lube often - usually a good spray of Champion at 500 mile intervals. Recently taken to a method of spraying into aerosol cap then brushing on as this gets the stuff where I want it rather than all over the rear shock.
However - a cleaner I am not since I'm aware of these fragile O rings and was never real sure as to what to use. Kerosene sounds interesting - Coleman fuel??? (I've some sitting idle in the shed). WD40 - not sure about - so good for everything else so why not chains - maybe it's got some odd rubber corroding chemical.
Andy
Quote from: andyoutandabout on August 17, 2009, 11:51:34 PM
I to am rather paticular about the state of my chain and lube often - usually a good spray of Champion at 500 mile intervals. Recently taken to a method of spraying into aerosol cap then brushing on as this gets the stuff where I want it rather than all over the rear shock.
However - a cleaner I am not since I'm aware of these fragile O rings and was never real sure as to what to use. Kerosene sounds interesting - Coleman fuel??? (I've some sitting idle in the shed). WD40 - not sure about - so good for everything else so why not chains - maybe it's got some odd rubber corroding chemical.
Andy
Check this out, as well as the comments.... http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motorcycle-chain-cleaner/ (http://www.webbikeworld.com/r3/motorcycle-chain-cleaner/)
Later......
Within the link that higbonzo posted is a link to an earlier article from webbikeworld. At the end of that earlier article is a link to a thread (from 2003, I might mention...) from the Yamaha FZ1OA forum that includes comments from both the WD-40 and Tsubaki Chain companies. And, like most forums, the chatter is amusing besides. So everybody doesn't have to do their own hunting: http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8987&highlight=WD-40+letter (http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8987&highlight=WD-40+letter)
If you scroll through to about the 3rd or 4th page, you'll find the letter from the Tsubaki rep wherein he actually recommends WD-40 (for their Sigma chains at least...).
We are starting to diverge from the original post, but one other point is that when those o-rings go they tend to blow out rather fast. One way of telling if they are shot is that when you remove the chain the side-to-side flex of the chain is alot. When the o-rings are good you can hardly deflect the thing sideways. It will only bend and roll in 1 axis.
Quote from: cadmanmadman on August 19, 2009, 09:33:59 AM
We are starting to diverge from the original post <snip>
Getting off-topic is how this forum came about in the first place, man... :pardon:
Randy T
Indy
Folks-
Back to the 'what to clean your chain with' discussion... I have used WD-40 to clean motorcylce chains all my life. My chains last for 20-25k miles. Actually, it's usually the sprokets that need changing before my chain, but I do them as a set. I've read the stuff that it may degrade the o-rings, but I just don't see evidence of it. I'd love to see someone cut the o-ring out of an old chain and soak one in WD and another in kerosene for a month. See what the two of them look like in the end.
Anyone game?
Please advise,
Thanks,
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2009, 09:59:44 AM
I'd love to see someone cut the o-ring out of an old chain and soak one in WD and another in kerosene for a month. See what the two of them look like in the end.
Anyone game?
Dan, I'm on it!
Quote from: TRoy on August 19, 2009, 10:50:06 AM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2009, 09:59:44 AM
I'd love to see someone cut the o-ring out of an old chain and soak one in WD and another in kerosene for a month. See what the two of them look like in the end.
Anyone game?
Dan, I'm on it!
Seems like Mazz, or someone on the micapeak list did that a couple of years ago...
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: pdxfj on August 16, 2009, 12:14:29 PM
I wouldn't use WD-40 on a chain.
If the chain is really dirty I use either kerosene or ATF and a soft toothbrush, then I spray down with a chain cleaner. For light cleanings I just use the chain cleaner. After everything is dry, I lube the chain with Honda chain lube.
Be sure to remove the front sprocket cover. You'll be amazed at how much crap builds up in there.
So you wouldn't use WD-40. WD-40 contains Aliphatic Petroleum Distillates as its main ingredient.
You would however use kerosene which IS an Aliphatic Petroleum Distillate?
Please elaborate. :diablo:
While you're at it put one in some ATF and see how it compares. :)
Quote from: TRoy on August 19, 2009, 10:50:06 AM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2009, 09:59:44 AM
I'd love to see someone cut the o-ring out of an old chain and soak one in WD and another in kerosene for a month. See what the two of them look like in the end.
Anyone game?
Dan, I'm on it!
Quote from: rktmanfj on August 19, 2009, 11:08:06 AM
Quote from: TRoy on August 19, 2009, 10:50:06 AM
Quote from: Dan Filetti on August 19, 2009, 09:59:44 AM
I'd love to see someone cut the o-ring out of an old chain and soak one in WD and another in kerosene for a month. See what the two of them look like in the end.
Anyone game?
Dan, I'm on it!
Seems like Mazz, or someone on the micapeak list did that a couple of years ago...
Randy T
Indy
I looked back in the archives over at www.fj1200archives.com (http://www.fj1200archives.com), and found the test that was done over there...
<<
Kurt, others;
FWIW, I'd advise against diesel fuel as a chain cleaner for O-ring
chains. A couble of years ago, prompted by a chain-cleaning and lubing
thread, I tested some O-rings by soaking then in KMART's clone of WD 40,
90-WT gear oil, and home-heating (fuel) oil, which is diesel fuel with
some dye in it. After several weeks, the O-rings in the clone WD 40 and
the 90-WT gear oil were fine, but the ring in the home-heating (aka diesel)
fuel oil had begun to swell. A couple of years later (like this a.m.), the
O-rings in the gear oil and clone WD 40 are still in good shape. The O-
ring in the fuel oil got brittle, broke into four pieces (with a little
help), and now sits in it's little plastic test container, fused to the
bottom.......I'd strongly suggest steering clear of both heating oil, and
diesel fuel when it comes to O-ring chain maintenence.
---MAZZ>>
I know that some time after this was posted, someone else did it, with similar results.
YMMV,
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: pdxfj on August 16, 2009, 12:14:29 PM
I wouldn't use WD-40 on a chain.
FWIW: I have been using WD-40 to clean my O-Ring chains for 6+ years now. I still always get about 20K of pretty hard riding out of them before they are too stretched out. They have always been the top of the line DID gold chain. I clean them by hand with WD-40 and a rag. Then re-lube them with Honda (red can) chain lube. I have never seen a damaged o-ring. It's my understanding that the grease in the X-Ring O-ring chains (and ALL O-Ring chains) seeps/wears out in a few thousand miles anyway. There is an AWESOME EVERYTHING you could want to know about motorcycle chains link around somewhere...It has been tossed around MANY times over the last several years. I know lots of you know what link I'm talking about - let's see who can find it first! :good2:
I have read the articles online that were posted in this thread regarding the WD-40-Kerosene debate. Thanks for posting those links guys. Seems to me that there is no proof that WD-40 causes any adverse effects to the o-rings. The nice thing is with WD-40 it is readily available, low fumes, seems to work well as a chain cleaner. A gear head like me also enjoys the smell :crazy:
My bike has a chain with 12K miles, has been sitting unused in a garage for 16 years. I would imagine it would be happy being cleaned with anything. I think I will try the WD-40 as a cleaner, used compressed air to dry the chain and THEN apply a good dose of Bel-Ray lube afterwards. I really don't think there will be any longterm issues.
Owning my other 2 bikes (both Hondas) with shaft drive has definetly kept me out of the chain cleaner/lube drama. Its nice to be a part of it now. :smile:
"Time to go clean, go for a ride, and fling some lube"........thats my new quote.
Ozz
(Glen)
I would avoid the compressed air drying routine. You could blow crap past the o-rings. That would be a bad thing.
DavidR.
As a plastics engineer, I will hopefully be able to clear this up. The material used for o-rings on a chain is made from Buna-N rubber. It is only marginally resistant to natural oils (not synthetic) and fuel. Over time, it will degrade the polymer breaking up those long molecule chains, and swell the polymer in question. In the most extreme case the polymer no longer softens and swells, paradoxically it starts to develop a hard brittle shell with a soft inside (like one of those cream filled cardies) and that brittle shell starts to crack and break and everything pretty much goes to $hit.
On the other hand, Materials like WD40 I'm 98% sure include a microfluidized (pulverized into nano size molecules) silicone which repels water very well. Silicon on the other hand, acts as a real plasticizer and gets in between the polymer chains and prevents 'cahin scission' and the breaking of these polymer chains. I would guess that the plasticizing effect of the silicone overrides any delitirous effect that any natural oils in the product would have. Same for any other suitable chain oil.
I was trying to remember specifically WHAT it was that I used many years ago that completely wrecked a chain so quickly. Your conversation reminded me of the fact that it was an old jug of kerosene (which is nothing more than refined Diesel or home heating oil or for that matter, really close to jet fuel, aka JP3).
I was kerosene that killed my chain in no time flat.
A safe assumption to make would be the frequency of chain lubing more than 'what' specific chemical you use.
Well, according to the several polymer properties websites I consulted when researching which type of o-rings to get for my recent carb rebuild, Buna-N had "good" resistance to oils and fuels. It is weather and sunlight (and, I suspect, ozone) that kills it!
That's why when I did the fuel rails on my carbs, the o-rings on the inside (fuel contacting) were nearly pristine, while those on the outside (air contacting) were, as cadmanmadman descibes, "a hard brittle shell with a soft inside (like one of those cream filled cardies) and that brittle shell (was) start(ing) to crack and break..."
Old chain: DID 530 VM, Approx 35,000 miles."x-rings". Cleaned w/Kerosene and lubed with some sort of spray can chain lube no more than every 700 miles.
Soaked for 2 weeks, then set out in the atmosphere for a couple days, then soaked again for 2 weeks . Only thing that seemed to have ANY effect on the x-rings was PB Blaster. I used some DOT3 brake fluid just for the hell of it , since it seems to fuck up everything ~ seemed to have no effect.
The x-ring that was in PB Blaster was slightly enlarged/impregnated. The main thing I noticed was that, after a week or so, it was soaking in a cloud of blackness, and when removed , some of the blackness would rub off on my fingers (presumably deteriorating rubber)
(http://inlinethumb19.webshots.com/42642/2672369200068526197S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2672369200068526197UQDxGS)
The x-ring on the bottom was not soaked in anything.. for comparison
(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/43080/2273216920068526197S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2273216920068526197KdeKyx)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31y3Ttym95L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/46_25_09_09_8_08_32.jpeg)
If you want to see an o-rings swell up put it in Mineral Spirits.
DavidR.