I've had my '90 for another year now on a PNO title. Finished rebuilding the carbs last week, and revived a corroded and burnt out fuel pump using the point set replacement from Randy. Worked like a charm. Got a free week now, and it looks like a total head teardown is in order. I had it running steady, but banger #4 showed signs of a steady oil leak and was chugging to keep up with the others. Sounded like the right side of the engine was a diesel.
I'm hoping this will be a simple valve seal and cleanup job. Already can see that other rubber items need replacing. Hope the metal bits are still in shape.
Any tips on what else to look for as I crack it open today?
Looks like I need way more than valve seals...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_1388.JPG)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_1393.JPG)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_1394.JPG)
How many miles on on this motor?
Do you know of it having a history of being particularly thrashed suck as track work, nitrous, etc?
I ask because these motor are fairly bullet proof -this damage is a bit surprising without serious abuse and/ or very high mileage or both.
Just curious.
Dan
It's got over 54,000. It came to me nearly stock, but rather neglected. The carbs were a pain to pull apart. Not sure if they were ever serviced for anything at all.
The air intake was riddled with leaks too. I had replaced two boots from the airbox to the carbs when I first got the bike. Every single jet was crudded up, and the floats were sticking too. Pretty safe to say that this poor thing hadn't had a good balanced diet of fuel/air for a while, and then started binging on oil too.
I'm looking up head bolts now. Anyone recommend an online vendor? I don't think I need to plunk down $80 for the Ape heavy duty jobbers. I'd buy em from Randy along with the other goodies in my cart, but he doesn't appear to stock them.
Quote from: silas on April 30, 2012, 07:54:27 PM
I'm looking up head bolts now. Anyone recommend an online vendor? I don't think I need to plunk down $80 for the Ape heavy duty jobbers. I'd buy em from Randy along with the other goodies in my cart, but he doesn't appear to stock them.
You will never get them out and are heading down a slippery slop. At least one will break off, three will pull the threads and you will be splitting the cases to get them fixed; http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=479.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=479.0)
Give me a call and we can talk about the engine and the repairs you need. I cannot determine by the pictures posted what issue you are having other than what you have described.
I will be here for a few more hours...
Randy - RPM
Has number 3 even been firing.......those exhaust valves are soooooo shiny!
Harvy
Quote from: Harvy on April 30, 2012, 08:28:59 PM
Has number 3 even been firing.......those exhaust valves are soooooo shiny!
Harvy
Is #3 'shiny' or white from being way too lean? (my interpretation).
Others know a LOT more about this, than I do.
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on April 30, 2012, 10:12:11 PM
Quote from: Harvy on April 30, 2012, 08:28:59 PM
Has number 3 even been firing.......those exhaust valves are soooooo shiny!
Harvy
Is #3 'shiny' or white from being way too lean? (my interpretation).
Others know a LOT more about this, than I do.
Dan
Good point Dan....may well be the case.
I was just going on how wet No3 cylinder looks compared to the other 3 too.
Harvy
I'd say #3 was running quite lean. Looks even whiter there because it reflected the flash.
Just spent an hour and a half scrubbing off the grime with some wire brushes and half a can of PB Blaster. Worked faster than I expected. Everything looks okay to me, but I'll take pics in the daylight tomorrow.
Randy: Thanks for the warning. Certainly don't want to break anything now. Been on a roll the last few days. I'll give you a call tomorrow.
Here's the head cleaned up a bit...
The exhaust valves in #3 and #4 still have a bit of grime on them. The wire brush wasn't doing much after a while.
The exhaust valves on #1 and #2 appear to be permanently pitted. Couldn't quite tell if it was just a layer of corrosion welded onto the surface or what.
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/head-after1.jpg)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_1401.JPG)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_1402.JPG)
So now I'm assuming I may need to pull the cylinder block off to assess the situation with the rusty bolts. It was already coming loose on the rear edge when I was breaking the head free. The front edge of the block was giving me a hard time just now, so I decided to give it a rest and get some advice...
I got the cylinder block off. Just took some patience and a few more hits with a rubber mallet. Actually came off easier than the head. Here's what I'm looking at now after a bit of careful cleanup...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_2921.JPG)
The bolts are tight. Only a couple look rusted down at the mounting points. Could I just work on removing the rust and keep them in place? They don't appear or feel any thinner than the clean bolts.
Here's the block all cleaned up. Forgot to get the "before" pics. The bottom didn't need much work, but the thin orange cylinder gaskets disintegrated under the scrape of a fingernail...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_2924.JPG)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_2925.JPG)
Here's this round's highlight... a lovely rusty placement dowel after I freed it from the block. I wrapped the block with some heavy linen with a hole cut to grab and twist the PB Blasted dowel. Took a while but it finally started twisting. Yanked it and then brushed out the socket with a neighbor's Dremel. A clean dowel fits nice and snug now.
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/IMG_2919.JPG)
Despite the messy dowel extraction, the top of the block needs resurfacing. The edge of #4 comes a fraction of a millimeter from being flush with the surface. The edges of the other three appear to have the same resurfacing pattern/arc as the rest of the block's surface, but #4 has a distinct concentric texture. Would this indicate that the block had been (lazily) resurfaced before? #4 was replaced already? Could it be resurfaced any further? Is there a limit to how much you can shave off these things?
Here's a close-up...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/blockscars.jpg)
nice work cleaning up the head,where were you when i swapped heads on my bike :rofl: ,, your valves looked new compared to the pics i have on here :dash2: ,, hope you get her sorted out (popcorn)
Did you measure how far the pistons were at TDC vs the top of the block? That'll help to tell you how much can be taken off.
Thicker base gaskets are available, so if you cut the top off 0.010, you'd just add that back into the thickness at the bottom to get back to where you started. Stock base gasket is 0.020".
Maybe I'd start a side business cleaning heads if my OCD worked this fast all the time.
I didn't measure the piston height. There was a mm or two of grime on top of them, so I wouldn't be able to get a good reading until they're cleaned up too.
Just got back from talking to a local mechanic that does resurfacing. He said the block surface is fine, even with the little nicks and dings. He excitedly pronounced it to be perfectly even too. Wasn't worried about warping anyway.
What he did say is that it's just the #4 sleeve that is obviously out of spec. He measured that it's 10 mil below the surface. He recommended replacing or refitting it instead of resurfacing, and that maybe a better equipped shop could fit a spacer under the lip.
So, banger #4 has/had a number of problems. I replaced the leaky intake boot from the airbox to the carbs (along with #3). Then it was a gunky carb. Now this.
Despite all the mess, it's still pretty amazing to me that the bike was running at all. Can't wait to get everything back in shape and feel what it's supposed to ride like.
Quote from: silas on May 02, 2012, 02:20:06 PM
What he did say is that it's just the #4 sleeve that is obviously out of spec. He measured that it's 10 mil below the surface. He recommended replacing or refitting it instead of resurfacing, and that maybe a better equipped shop could fit a spacer under the lip.
No, surface the top surface the .010 and the add additional .010 base gasket under the cylinder when you re-install it.
A new sleeve is going to have to be surfaced to the top of the block as well.
Also, clean the rust from the studs, paint with high temp BBQ paint. The then put black shrink tubing on the as well, but if they are painted they do not need the shrink tubing.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on May 02, 2012, 03:35:05 PM
No, surface the top surface the .010 and the add additional .010 base gasket under the cylinder when you re-install it.
A new sleeve is going to have to be surfaced to the top of the block as well.
Also, clean the rust from the studs, paint with high temp BBQ paint. The then put black shrink tubing on the as well, but if they are painted they do not need the shrink tubing.
Thanks Randy. Sounds good. Same advice I just got from the folks at LA Sleeve. They said they wouldn't even bother refitting it and just re-sleeve anyway. Are you able to source a base gasket with an extra .010? I'll be ordering your Viton seals and some other stuff today anyway.
Will do that work on the bolts as well. They seem sturdy enough to keep in place.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Hope this is fun to follow.
Another question...
Should I remove the pistons for cleaning?
Got the cylinder block resurfaced. They took .014 off...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/blockresurfaced.jpg)
Worked on the rusty bolts yesterday. Let them sit overnight with some Bondo rust remover...
Before...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/bolts-rusty.jpg)
with Bondo...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/bolts-bondo.jpg)
Been a while, but I've had the block and head sandblasted while I cleaned the valves, the piston crowns, and finished de-rusting and painting the block bolts. Just reinstalled the cleaned up valves with new seals. Forgot to get before and afters of the valves. They were pretty cruddy, but seat just fine now.
Waiting on delivery of two coated steel base gaskets to make up for the .014 lost to the resurfacing. Maybe have everything back together by the weekend.
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/bolts-painted.jpg)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/pistons-clean.jpg)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/sandblasted-front.jpg)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/sandblasted-back.jpg)
Bolt in one cam at a time and take the readings. From there use the manual to get them adjusted properly.
The gaskets went out today, you will have them no later than Wednesday.
Randy - RPM
Thanks Randy. I'm gonna take the bike to the shop once everything is back together to dial in the valves and carbs. I think I can ballpark everything enough to ride a few blocks. I don't have the tools/gauges, and I'd rather put the money toward a professional tune-up. Would be nice to have an experienced eye check over my work too.
If you adjust the valves your self on the bench before you put it together, you will save your self a bunch of money.
Once it is assembled and in the bike that is a much more labor intensive job.
Put the head on two blocks, put 8 of the smallest shims you have in the buckets. Bolt in one cam, point the lobes away, use a feeler gauge and take the readings.
Then you will not only be in the ball park, but maybe standing on second waiting for the base hit (carb sync).
Randy - RPM
If you follow Randy's advice, the only tools you'll need are a 10mm socket, a feeler guage and the valve tool (which you should have anyway.
Very easy to check/adjust valves on the bench. You really don't need the valve tool if you make all the proper measurements and calculations. Just remove the cam and swap/replace the affected shims.
There is a 19mm hex cast into the cams that you can use to turn them with.
DavidR.
Ok, ok... you guys talked me into it.
I guess I'll order single shims from Randy as needed, along with the advance rotor that just came back in stock! ;)
Well that was easy. Everything was reasonably within spec. Just need three replacements after a game of Musical Shims.
btw: I've been following the Clymer manual the PO handed down with the bike. Going by their ranges of .11-.15mm for the intake and .16-.20 for the exhaust.
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/shim-chart2.jpg)
Gonna start stacking everything back on the bike tonight. I feel a heavy weight is being lifted from my workbench.
Quote from: silas on May 16, 2012, 06:28:28 PM
Well that was easy. Everything was reasonably within spec. Just need three replacements after a game of Musical Shims.
btw: I've been following the Clymer manual the PO handed down with the bike. Going by their ranges of .11-.15mm for the intake and .16-.20 for the exhaust.
Gonna start stacking everything back on the bike tonight. I feel a heavy weight is being lifted from my workbench.
Try this if you have access to Excel. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5830.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5830.0)
Quote from: FJmonkey on May 16, 2012, 06:47:45 PM
Try this if you have access to Excel. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5830.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5830.0)
No need for the $$ associated with Excel. Open Office will do it for free!
http://www.openoffice.org/download/ (http://www.openoffice.org/download/)
Works pretty well in comparison MS Office, and Open Office will open MS Office files without any major drama.
Just sayin'
Dan
Quote from: Dan Filetti on May 16, 2012, 08:02:50 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on May 16, 2012, 06:47:45 PM
Try this if you have access to Excel. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5830.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=5830.0)
No need for the $$ associated with Excel. Open Office will do it for free!
http://www.openoffice.org/download/ (http://www.openoffice.org/download/)
Works pretty well in comparison MS Office, and Open Office will open MS Office files without any major drama.
Just sayin'
Dan
Good call, Open Office rocks and is free...
Quote from: andyb on May 02, 2012, 08:31:30 AM
Did you measure how far the pistons were at TDC vs the top of the block? That'll help to tell you how much can be taken off.
Thicker base gaskets are available, so if you cut the top off 0.010, you'd just add that back into the thickness at the bottom to get back to where you started. Stock base gasket is 0.020".
.040 squish would be nice but that's just me.
I sandwiched two of the .010 coated steel base gaskets.
I put as much of the engine back on as I could without the new shims. Pistons slid into place snug and might be .010 below the block surface.
What's the proper torque on the cylinder bolt nuts? The Clymer spec table is a jumbled mess through these celebratory beer goggles. Is it 25lb?
Quote from: silas on May 17, 2012, 01:04:24 AM
I sandwiched two of the .010 coated steel base gaskets.
I put as much of the engine back on as I could without the new shims. Pistons slid into place snug and might be .010 below the block surface.
What's the proper torque on the cylinder bolt nuts? The Clymer spec table is a jumbled mess through these celebratory beer goggles. Is it 25lb?
Yes, 25 ft lbs
Randy - RPM
Got it back together enough to idle last night. Some light smoke started coming off, so I left it until today to do a thorough inspection of the source. Most is just oil from the #4 exhaust downpipe, which I knew still had some residue on the inside. I'll pull it and blast it out with some carb cleaner today. Also found a firmly packed wad of smoking grime to the left of plug #3. Had to scrape it up with a screwdriver and dust with compressed air. Most likely held together by WD40 and engine degreaser. Smelled lovely.
I polished the valve cover. Shall I leave it like this or does it need paint?
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/vc-polished.jpg)
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/block-side.jpg)
Here's a full body shot. Well, without some vital organs and skin...
(http://silasdilworth.com/FJ1200/skeleton.jpg)
Gonna play with the idle today. I put the new K&N filter in the stock airbox. What might I expect regarding the mixture screw settings? About one full turn on each? Less than that? (It's 75° and sunny here in LA.)
Polished metal is just perfectly beautiful. No need to do anything else to the valve cover. Like wood, it's almost a sin to paint it once it's been polished like that.
Nice job, BTW.
CraigO
+1... I like the way you think Craig! Well said laddie....
So the bike fires up just fine and idles, but I'm having trouble with backfiring and a light colored smoke from both cans. Can't tell if it's blue smoke or just gray. I've been reading that a bit of smoke after a rebuild like this is normal, but how can I tell if it's my carb settings that are causing these problems and not something else to fix/replace? Do I need to tear down again and replace the piston rings now?
btw: I've been wondering if this thread should be moved to the Project Writeups section.
Did you not install new rings when you had it apart? I remember reading that you cleaned up the pistons so I thought you were fitting new rings. Cleaning carbon off used pistons and re-using old rings is a recipe for creating an oil burner. If I've got it wrong and you did install new rings, did you hone out the bores? I went through a similar experience about a year ago except I fitted new rings and honed the bores and it still burned oil. I ended up re-boring and fitting a 1219 Wiseco kit. It turned out that the bores were out of round. It has not burned any oil since. Regards, Pete.
Nope. I didn't replace the rings. :dash1:
I did build a manometer this evening and balanced the carbs myself. Spent $13.50 and maybe two hours. I guess I'll take the money I saved and invest in a big bore kit now.
Project bike indeed. Wonder when I'll ever ride it again.
I'd take it out and run it. Give it a chance to THOROUGHLY warm up and then run it hard up through the gears to load up the rings and give them a chance to re-seat.
If that doesn't do it, you might want to try this: http://650rider.com/index.php?file=viewtopic&name=Forums&t=6061 (http://650rider.com/index.php?file=viewtopic&name=Forums&t=6061)
a couple clips from that link-
"Your rings have not seated...sometimes it takes quite a while and if they don't seat right away the cylinders can glaze......a put together which I do all the time can have seating problems.......the last time I recommended a level teaspoon of baking soda in the spark plug hole and turn it over a bit and replace the plug and run it (one cylinder at a time) ....but I don't recommend this any more since I got beat up for it.....but I will continue to do it....."
"In the mid 60's I watched Smokey Yunick at the Daytona 500 sprinkle Bon Ami cleanser down the carb on a 421 Pontiac. Held it at 6000 on the tach and sprinkled it right down the carb, instant ring seal ! Baking soda seems pretty mild compared to that."
At the very worst, if you're not happy with the results, you're still looking at a teardown and rebuild...worth a shot in my book! I personally wouldn't hesitate to try it if it's smoking like that, but I would change the oil and filter at the end of the ride!
Chris W.
Speaking from experience, another source of oil ingestion is worn intake valve stems and guides. If you haven't installed positive valve seals on the intakes you should consider it if you have to take it back apart.
I did install Viton valve seals. Checked the guides for play and they were all okay and even better with the new seals in place.
I was reading on a Harley forum about the Bon Ami trick. Seems too good to be true. What would be the worst side effect?
Honestly, I don't mind tearing down to do the rings, but if I have to go that far, I'd rather just do a 1250 kit and really make it worth my while!
Awww, probably you just haven't broken 'er in right...
Try it like these guys do it...
F1 Engine Break In (ending is crazy!) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26X_s28ilYs#)
Holy crap... that's awesome. Afraid the bike would blow to bits if I held it at 6000 for more than a minute right now. Not feeling all too confident with the state of things.
I've got more black oil dripping from the exhaust box where it meets the right can. I cleaned the #4 downpipe, and the joint where it meets the box is now clean. I should have cleared out the box too while I had it apart. Going to do that today and see if the smoke dissipates any. Must be a puddle in there. The can itself is clear.
I do have the old spark plugs. Should I try the Bon Ami / baking soda trick?
A little more backstory: Beside the carbs being gunked solid (nearly clogged jets and stuck floats), the #3 and #4 boots from the airbox were torn when I got it. #4 boot had some sort of botched seal that was peeling off. I replaced them after maybe 200 miles of my own riding, but who knows how long it was running with that sort of leak. I assume the #4 banger was taking a beating by unfiltered air for a while to produce the carbon buildup seen on teardown. It had to have been running very lean at least. Right? What I'm wondering is whether this neglect has royally fouled the cylinder to the point of replacement. Aside from that, I'm under the suspicion that the #4 sleeve was replaced at some point. As noted earlier, it was seated in the block about .012 lower than the other three, hence the resurfacing I had done. Could it have dropped that much under naturally occurring wear?
Could try this too....go to 40 seconds. 1966 Honda RC166 Exhaust Engine Sound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaRop_ZMwo0#ws)
Quote from: silas on May 25, 2012, 12:27:59 PM
Should I try the Bon Ami / baking soda trick?
No I wouldn't do that just yet, I'd take her for a run and burn off that excess oil in the exhaust collector then re-evaluate where it's at from there.
Quote from: JMR on May 25, 2012, 03:13:56 PM
Could try this too....go to 40 seconds. 1966 Honda RC166 Exhaust Engine Sound (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaRop_ZMwo0#ws)
Not a bit of blue smoke either.
I agree - I'd give it a chance to seat the rings first. Take it for several rides and make sure you put a good load on the engine - don't baby it (no need to abuse it, but some good hard acceleration up through the gears, let it cruise for a while and up through the gearbox again - up a bit of a hill if you can).
I'd use the bon-ami / baking soda trick as a last resort once you've tried everything other than tearing down the engine.
Good luck!
Chris
Back again! Since my last post, I've torn everything down to the crankcase, replaced the rings, honed the cylinders with a Flex-Hone brush, and lapped the valves. I see now that I should have done all of this the first time. Just part of a proper rebuild. Still learning.
If anyone needs to hone their bores, I'll be posting this Flex-Hone brush in the tools section. It's 83mm 240 grit silicon carbide, so it ought to be wide enough to work on big-bores as well as stock. Great tool and made right here in LA. I bought it direct from the good folks at Brush Research headquarters. http://www.brushresearch.com/brushes.php?c1=2 (http://www.brushresearch.com/brushes.php?c1=2)
Everything's back together now too. Been a while since she's had her plastics on. Had a warm up session yesterday to balance the carbs and set the mixture screws. All sounds normal. It burned off quite a bit of smoke, but I believe most of it was leftover oil in the exhaust collector box.
A lot less smoke today. Took it for a 3 mile run around the neighborhood over some decent hills. Feels like (and smells like) I need to tune the carbs a bit more, but overall the engine pulls nicely. Didn't ride long enough to make sense of the myriad engine noises, but plan to take her back out in a bit now that the day is cooling off. Fearing some piston slap on #4. Will the noises diminish as the rings set?
I decided to go with Rotella HD 15w-40 for the break-in. Various reading in addition to advice from my old man led me to it. Plus it's cheap and conveniently packaged in a 1 gallon jug. Shifting was a bit clunky today, but smoothed out in the third mile as she warmed up.
Question: When should I do the first oil change? I've installed Randy's spin-on adapter and found the WIX 51334 filter at O'Reilly's for $7. Works great!
I've put 235 miles on this past week, and it's reminding me why I wanted an FJ. So. Much. Effing. Fun.
Rejetted with fresh 110 mains and upgraded to 42.5 pilot (from stock 37.5) last night. Throttle response and idle are perfect. It seriously takes off mid-throttle, and I'm officially afraid of opening it up all the way. So. Much. Effing. Power. If you're rebuilding your carbs, don't even waste time or $15 with the 37.5 pilots. I had far too much trouble dialing in and blipping until I put the 42.5's in.
The rings have seated quite well. No smoke, not even on startup. No more funny engine noises except the common ticking from the top-end. Plugs all look good.
Shifting is a bit clunky with every other gear change, particularly in 1st and 2nd. The clunk is lessened if I slip it into gear with the RPM/MPH in the right ranges. Drained and cleaned the clutch, which helped a bit. No slippage at all though. Pulls solid and strong in all the gears.
The Rotella 15w-40 seems to be ok. Oil level has been holding steady since around mile 50.
Time to rebuild the forks. Left side seal is a little bit weepy, but handling is just fine. Just a little stiff.
Stay tuned for more adventures in FJ rebuilding...