So i just picked up my 86 fj1200 and the clutch didnt have any pressure so i bled it and bled it and nothing
i got home today and took the slave and master off the bike. form here im not sure what to do. the rod came out of the tranny (there is ball that falls out?) my question is where is that ball because it didnt come out and what to do about it my clutch i need all the help i can get thank you
Not sure about the ball. But is the slave cylinder leaking fluid/ If it is, there's afair chance that it's stripped the paint off of the body. If you get a repair kit, you must clean the surfaces first, don't just put the new seelas in place.
it does not seem to leak and the master cylinder builds pressure do you know how that rod works
not 100% sure, so best i don't comment, sorry.
if the master cylinder builds pressure, why did you bleed the clutch? or I would guess that you thought it should be done?
okay thankyou for your time
hi there .
You say you bled the clutch and "nothing".Do you mean no fluid came out or no improvement in clutch operation?.Is there brake fluid in the reservoir?If you inspect the slave and there's evidence of leaking ,that's your problem and you will need to rebuild or replace it and re bleed the system.If the slave seems OK there is either air in the system or the master cylinder is failing and will require rebuild or replacement.Note- some members sometimes have trouble bleeding the clutch so it can be tricky.Genuine yamaha rebuild kits I have found to be better than aftermarket parts.If you cant find any leaks and bleeding doesn't help,The master sounds like the problem. You can get parts From Randy at rpm....
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AClutchrbkit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AClutchrbkit)
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3Aslavecyl (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3Aslavecyl)
http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AS%2FK&cat=39 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AS%2FK&cat=39)
Hope this helps.
Cheers :drinks:
Jeff P
Hope this makes sence
The ball could/should still be in there as long as you haven't started the engine. It goes on the far end of the rod (the end that actuates the pressure plate) and sits between the rod and a little cap that bears on the pressure plate, it acts as a sort of bearing. If its missing the clutch won't work. The clutch slave cylinder act on the rod which (via the small ball bearing) pushes on the pressure plate via a small cap, pushing it away from the clutch plates and so releasing the pressure on the plate and so releasing the clutch. If the bearing isn't in there the clutch slave cylinder won't be able to "throw" the rod far enough to release the clutch
Another possibility is the clutch master cylinder seal has failed allowing fluid back past the seal so pressure won't build (it can happen and not leak so it won't be obvious).
Whilst you have the slave cylinder off the bike try clamping the piston so it can't move then bleed the system to see if you get pressure. If you do it would suggest that the master cylinder and slave cylinder are ok and the missing ball bearing is your problem.
OR
If someone has an accessible spare engine with the clutch slave off they may be able to measure the amount of pushrod showing when the bearing is in place to give you an idea if its in there or not. (I can't get to my spare engine at the moment otherwise I'd do it for you.
OR
failing that its off with the clutch cover and pressure place to check from that end :ireful:
Oops Jeff got there first :flag_of_truce:
Quote from: fudgejerkin1188 on February 23, 2012, 03:52:09 PM
Oops Jeff got there first :flag_of_truce:
Yeah...and I got it wrong about which end the ball is!!! :flag_of_truce: (deleted!) Thanks fudgejerkin1188
here's the diagram... the ball is #26
http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1986/FJ1200S/CLUTCH/parts.html (http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1986/FJ1200S/CLUTCH/parts.html)
and the master cylinder...
http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1986/FJ1200S/FRONT%20MASTER%20CYLINDER%202/parts.html (http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1986/FJ1200S/FRONT%20MASTER%20CYLINDER%202/parts.html)
Cheers :drinks:
Jeff P
when i bleed it there seams to be no pressure gain in the clutch
i did start the engine with the slave off the bike and not knowing the rod came out with a good squirt of oil but the ball did not i do not know where the ball is. i never saw it, if the ball fell in the transmission how do i get it out
i do believe when that rod is pushed in the clutch should be disengaged (the tire free wheels) but with the fj on the center stand when i put it in gear the tire moves it seams no matter how much i move the rod nothing happens
as for the bleeding issue i believe its bypassing in the mater cylinder and i will order a rebuild kit for that
Thanks for all your help so far
Quote from: moonrunnah on February 23, 2012, 06:25:28 PM
when i bleed it there seams to be no pressure gain in the clutch
i did start the engine with the slave off the bike and not knowing the rod came out with a good squirt of oil but the ball did not i do not know where the ball is. i never saw it, if the ball fell in the transmission how do i get it out
i do believe when that rod is pushed in the clutch should be disengaged (the tire free wheels) but with the fj on the center stand when i put it in gear the tire moves it seams no matter how much i move the rod nothing happens
as for the bleeding issue i believe its bypassing in the mater cylinder and i will order a rebuild kit for that
Thanks for all your help so far
The ball shot out with the rod and the oil, hope your cat/dog was clear of the hydraulically powered bolt. :lol: If you can't find the ball then maybe Randy at RPM can send you another one. They don't fall inside. Elvis has left the engine...... It has happened to many, I was lucky enough to read many posts warning me of this and have, as of yet, avoided it.....
It is time to pull the clutch cover and pressure plate to see if the ball is still in there. After you remove the pressure plate and the center hub push rod you will be able to see if the ball is still there.
If you cannot see out the other side it is still in there; if you can see through the shaft to the other side of the engine it is on your floor somewhere.
I do have plenty if you need one, but you will need to make sure it is gone before you install another or the clutch will never engage...
Randy - RPM
Would a magnet on a stick do the trick? :scratch_one-s_head:...just throwing it out there..... :pardon:
Cheers :drinks:
Jeff P
Quote from: flips on February 23, 2012, 08:54:08 PM
Would a magnet on a stick do the trick?
It would as long as the magnet and stick are smaller than 8mm...
Randy - RPM
There should be a wear mark on the pushrod. Does it look like it still lines up? I know several owners who have started their motor with the slave off, shot the pushrod out and did not lose the ball.
If it has sat for awhile, the clutch plates may be stuck together thus making the clutch seem like it's not working correctly. Put it back together, if you have clutch pressure, put it in gear, pull the clutch and rock the bike back and forth to try and break the plates loose.
If that doesn't work then start taking things apart
DavidR.
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 23, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
It is time to pull the clutch cover and pressure plate to see if the ball is still in there. After you remove the pressure plate and the center hub push rod you will be able to see if the ball is still there.
If you cannot see out the other side it is still in there; if you can see through the shaft to the other side of the engine it is on your floor somewhere.
I do have plenty if you need one, but you will need to make sure it is gone before you install another or the clutch will never engage...
Randy - RPM
okay thanks i wont be able to get to it until Tuesday morning but i will let you know when i do
is it a involved process to get the cover and pressure plate off
Thanks again
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on February 23, 2012, 09:28:53 PM
There should be a wear mark on the pushrod. Does it look like it still lines up? I know several owners who have started their motor with the slave off, shot the pushrod out and did not lose the ball.
If it has sat for awhile, the clutch plates may be stuck together thus making the clutch seem like it's not working correctly. Put it back together, if you have clutch pressure, put it in gear, pull the clutch and rock the bike back and forth to try and break the plates loose.
If that doesn't work then start taking things apart
DavidR.
wher would the mark line up?
(ther is a blueish line) on the rod where would it line up if it is engaged/ disengaged
The pushrod spends most of its life in the "unpushed" position. As such, chain goo usually builds up in this position. Some of it gets wiped off during use, but not all. So, you should have 2 discernable lines on the pushrod. If you install the pushrod, does it go in past the first gunk line? If so, then the ball may have fallen out. If it appears to line up with the goo line, then maybe the ball is still there.
Again, try manually breaking the clutch plates loose before you go into a teardown panic.
Do the easy things first.
DavidR.
Just a tip on bleeding -- to check if you have got all the air out -- with the slave off push on the piston slowly in ( With the reservoir cap off and bleeder screw tight ) and look to see if any air bubbles surface ( cover all areas to protect from brake fluid just in case).
If no air then you are good -- and you should be able to slightly pull back on the handle and the piston should move out ...just a little squeeze to see movement don't yank the thing.
I had the same thing happen and I did start ( just a pulse not a full start) without the slave but just popped the rod back in and all worked so luckily I didn't loose the ball.
I found bleeding difficult at first as I had empty lines but the reverse bleeding work best to remove all the air.
Initially, I did have bad seals on my slave and the pressure would build and then fade... upon inspection I could see excess fluid on the exhaust.
Stevecc
Quote from: moparman70 on February 24, 2012, 05:36:38 PM
Just a tip on bleeding -- to check if you have got all the air out -- with the slave off push on the piston slowly in ( With the reservoir cap off and bleeder screw tight ) and look to see if any air bubbles surface ( cover all areas to protect from brake fluid just in case).
If no air then you are good -- and you should be able to slightly pull back on the handle and the piston should move out ...just a little squeeze to see movement don't yank the thing.
I had the same thing happen and I did start ( just a pulse not a full start) without the slave but just popped the rod back in and all worked so luckily I didn't loose the ball.
I found bleeding difficult at first as I had empty lines but the reverse bleeding work best to remove all the air.
Initially, I did have bad seals on my slave and the pressure would build and then fade... upon inspection I could see excess fluid on the exhaust.
Stevecc
it does not seem to be leaking by the slave cylinder
im goning to try to bench bleed the master then the lines then slave and if there is no leaking and i still dont get pressure im guessing im going to have to rebuild the master cylinder
thank you moparman and david r.
i will let you guys know more on tuesday when i can actually get to the bike (unexpected snow up here in maine)
Where in Maine are you? There are a few of us on here, in Maine, that might be able to help you.
Bob W
Clutch bleeding, especially starting from a dry system is a pain in the ass.
1 word: Mityvac. Should be in every tool box. It makes it soooo much easier. $36 from Harbor Freight
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_17337.jpg)
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=mityvac&hft_adv=10062&gclid=CJ2I0_2MuK4CFU2b7QodjQ0mOA (http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=mityvac&hft_adv=10062&gclid=CJ2I0_2MuK4CFU2b7QodjQ0mOA)
Fill the slave prior to bolting it on.
Then, with the line unbolted at the slave end, fill the m/c until fluid comes out the bottom end of the line, then bolt it up.
There will be very little air to bleed out.
Yeah, it takes a bit more care to keep the fluid off the paint, but the bleeding is easy. Only takes a few minutes.
If you use DOT 5, it doesn't matter anyway. :biggrin:
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on February 23, 2012, 09:28:53 PM
There should be a wear mark on the pushrod. Does it look like it still lines up? I know several owners who have started their motor with the slave off, shot the pushrod out and did not lose the ball.
DavidR.
This happened to me, the bike leaned over on the kick stand. I started it up and it shot the rod out and pissed oil all over my leg.
When I put the clutch rod back in I noticed the seal marking on the rod lined up to the normal place (as David said)
The ball stayed in place and my pants were soaked with oil. :ireful:
Quote from: weymouth399 on February 24, 2012, 06:34:41 PM
Where in Maine are you? There are a few of us on here, in Maine, that might be able to help you.
Bob W
South paris maine most of the time
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 24, 2012, 08:00:24 PM
Clutch bleeding, especially starting from a dry system is a pain in the ass.
1 word: Mityvac. Should be in every tool box. It makes it soooo much easier. $36 from Harbor Freight
(http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_17337.jpg)
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=mityvac&hft_adv=10062&gclid=CJ2I0_2MuK4CFU2b7QodjQ0mOA (http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=&q=mityvac&hft_adv=10062&gclid=CJ2I0_2MuK4CFU2b7QodjQ0mOA)
yes i do need to get one i think my dad has one i can borrow
+1 on checking the lines on the pushrod. I started mine once without the slave on. the pushrod shot across the floor and I assumed the bearing did as well. The bike was apart for a couple months for other projects, so I bought another ball bearing from my Yamaha dealer and plopped it in. Clutch definitely does not function with 2 of them in there. :negative: All could have been avoided if i had used my head and opened my eyes.
Derek
Quote from: Derek Young on February 26, 2012, 11:38:24 AM
+1 on checking the lines on the pushrod. I started mine once without the slave on. the pushrod shot across the floor and I assumed the bearing did as well. The bike was apart for a couple months for other projects, so I bought another ball bearing from my Yamaha dealer and plopped it in. Clutch definitely does not function with 2 of them in there. :negative: All could have been avoided if i had used my head and opened my eyes.
Derek
i do have the ball in there and with the bike off i can put it in gear pull the clutch in (i do have pressure now although im not sure its enough) and roll the bike. how ever when i start the bike pull the clutch in and kick it in to gear it stalls. what would cause this do i have enough pressure in the clutch or is it too little and the oil powered rod pushing the piston back in to the slave cylinder?
Quote from: moonrunnah on February 26, 2012, 03:40:32 PM
i do have the ball in there and with the bike off i can put it in gear pull the clutch in (i do have pressure now although im not sure its enough) and roll the bike. how ever when i start the bike pull the clutch in and kick it in to gear it stalls. what would cause this do i have enough pressure in the clutch or is it too little and the oil powered rod pushing the piston back in to the slave cylinder?
Is the sidestand down?
Quote from: moonrunnah on February 26, 2012, 03:40:32 PM
i do have the ball in there and with the bike off i can put it in gear pull the clutch in (i do have pressure now although im not sure its enough) and roll the bike. how ever when i start the bike pull the clutch in and kick it in to gear it stalls. what would cause this do i have enough pressure in the clutch or is it too little and the oil powered rod pushing the piston back in to the slave cylinder?
Make sure the side stand is up when you kick it into gear. If it was down the side stand switch killed the ignition as a built in safety feature. On the other hand, if the clutch plates are really stuck or you cannot get enough disengagement, an idling engine will stall and the bike will buck a little as the engine tries to move the bike forward. Try it again with the bike on the center stand (side stand up) and see if it spins the rear wheel. If it spins and the use of the rear brake stalls the engine then you will need to figure out which of the two issues you have. With the ignition off, the bike in gear and the clutch pulled in, rock the bike forward and back till it feels like it hit something and stops. This will nudge stuck plates loose. If this does not knock the plates loose then you need to make sure the clutch is properly bleed.
Did you rebuild the master by chance?
Quote from: FJmonkey on February 26, 2012, 04:04:24 PM
Quote from: moonrunnah on February 26, 2012, 03:40:32 PM
i do have the ball in there and with the bike off i can put it in gear pull the clutch in (i do have pressure now although im not sure its enough) and roll the bike. how ever when i start the bike pull the clutch in and kick it in to gear it stalls. what would cause this do i have enough pressure in the clutch or is it too little and the oil powered rod pushing the piston back in to the slave cylinder?
Make sure the side stand is up when you kick it into gear. If it was down the side stand switch killed the ignition as a built in safety feature. On the other hand, if the clutch plates are really stuck or you cannot get enough disengagement, an idling engine will stall and the bike will buck a little as the engine tries to move the bike forward. Try it again with the bike on the center stand (side stand up) and see if it spins the rear wheel. If it spins and the use of the rear brake stalls the engine then you will need to figure out which of the two issues you have. With the ignition off, the bike in gear and the clutch pulled in, rock the bike forward and back till it feels like it hit something and stops. This will nudge stuck plates loose. If this does not knock the plates loose then you need to make sure the clutch is properly bleed.
Did you rebuild the master by chance?
no i did not
my stupidity got the best of me and i did not put the kick stand up :dash2:
i do however need a slave cup seal