regarding my 84 FJ1100 - any one have issues like this before. It starts fine when it is cold but if I pull off the road to get gas it pauses when I hit the starter and then slowly starts to turn then fires up. Today it really turned over slowly, slower than usual but then started up so I am going to charge the battery but it still doesn't cure the pause and slow turn. It also jumps forward (slightly) when starting when cold..not sure that that is all about.
Check the battery.
Rebuild the starter.
Clutch is sticky when cold sometimes.
you can also try cracking the throttle a bit while cranking.... sometime mine gets a bit finicky when hot even with a new battery,
Kookaloo!
Frank
Start it in neutral! That will minimize the drivetrain drag.
DavidR.
I had been having the same problem for a while.It got to the point that I had to bump start it a few times.I took apart and cleaned all the connections on the way to the starter.Battery to cable,cable to solenoid,solenoid to cable,cable to starter.Now I just touch the button and it fires almost instantly,hot or cold.
I'm going to resurrect this topic - mine's doing the exact same thing. I just bought a new battery, charged it up and have the same problem. I suspected my starter solonoid as I've seen solonoids fail repeatedly on cars with headers running next to the starter. I'll clean the connections first, then let you know.
Mine fires up INSTANTLY when cold, but when it's hot, it turns over very slowly - barely at all.
There's no starter solenoid on the FJ.
The starter engages a one-way lockup sprag clutch to crank the motor. When the engine catches and outruns the starter, the clutch automatically disengages.
Try disassembling and cleaning the starter motor or crack the throttle slightly when cranking hot.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
There's no starter solenoid on the FJ. DavidR.
There is on the '86-'87 California model.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
There's no starter solenoid on the FJ.
Sure there is, on every FJ and it is mounted to the battery box.
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/StarterSolinoid003.jpg)
I have never had a bad one, but I have sold & replaced a ton of starters. The early starters use a two magnet system within the starter. That has since been updated to a four magnet system to give the starter more torque.
The other issue is the flow of electricity on the ground side of the starter system. The ground wire from the battery grounds directly to the rear case bolt which must be tight & clean. The issue comes where the starter is mounted to the case with the two tabs. The two tabs on the case a machined bare aluminum.
The starter end plate/mounting tabs on the other hand are painted. The sole source for the starter to ground to the case is reliant on the mounting bolts "digging" in and cleaning some of the paint away to complete the circuit.
I personally clean the paint from the back side of the mounting tabs where they contact the case to ensure the ground side is allowing the full flow of electrical continuity.
If you do that and it still cranks slow, you need to get a new starter as all of the new ones today are the high torque units.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: DailyDriver on April 09, 2011, 12:47:17 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
There's no starter solenoid on the FJ. DavidR.
There is on the '86-'87 California model.
Just what are you calling a solenoid? There is a starter relay, but that's not a solenoid. The FJ starter works through a starter clutch. It has no solenoid.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 10, 2011, 11:36:59 PM
Quote from: DailyDriver on April 09, 2011, 12:47:17 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
There's no starter solenoid on the FJ. DavidR.
There is on the '86-'87 California model.
Just what are you calling a solenoid? There is a starter relay, but that's not a solenoid. The FJ starter works through a starter clutch. It has no solenoid.
DavidR.
I had to look it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid)
Appears to be semantics we are talking about here. Seems "Starter Relay" and "Starter Solenoid" are fairly interchangeable. What they describe as a "Starter Solenoid" on wikipedia (I know - not the most reliable source) sure sounds like what we have on our FJs to me...but I'm not a mechanic or engineer or anything...
Quote from: Marsh White on April 11, 2011, 12:37:43 AM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 10, 2011, 11:36:59 PM
Quote from: DailyDriver on April 09, 2011, 12:47:17 PM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
There's no starter solenoid on the FJ. DavidR.
There is on the '86-'87 California model.
Just what are you calling a solenoid? There is a starter relay, but that's not a solenoid. The FJ starter works through a starter clutch. It has no solenoid.
DavidR.
I had to look it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_solenoid)
Appears to be semantics we are talking about here. Seems "Starter Relay" and "Starter Solenoid" are fairly interchangeable. What they describe as a "Starter Solenoid" on wikipedia (I know - not the most reliable source) sure sounds like what we have on our FJs to me...but I'm not a mechanic or engineer or anything...
Sorta. The starter solenoid described on the wiki link uses its armature (which has a gear attached to the end of it) to engage the starter bendix (the gear mechanism) to the flywheel. See the 'electromechanical solenoids' section of this wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solenoid) But that's not what is going on with an FJ.
As I understand it, the device on the FJ is a relay... just a high current electrical switch that supplies power to drive the starter motor, which on an FJ doesn't have a Bendix, right? Though I've never opened one to see what's inside it, that's what Yamaha refers to it as: p/n 36Y-81940-00-00, STARTER RELAY ASSY
Randy T
Indy
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 09, 2011, 01:20:21 PM
I have never had a bad one, but I have sold & replaced a ton of starters. The early starters use a two magnet system within the starter. That has since been updated to a four magnet system to give the starter more torque.
The other issue is the flow of electricity on the ground side of the starter system. The ground wire from the battery grounds directly to the rear case bolt which must be tight & clean. The issue comes where the starter is mounted to the case with the two tabs. The two tabs on the case a machined bare aluminum.
The starter end plate/mounting tabs on the other hand are painted. The sole source for the starter to ground to the case is reliant on the mounting bolts "digging" in and cleaning some of the paint away to complete the circuit.
I personally clean the paint from the back side of the mounting tabs where they contact the case to ensure the ground side is allowing the full flow of electrical continuity.
If you do that and it still cranks slow, you need to get a new starter as all of the new ones today are the high torque units.
Randy - RPM
Good comments, Randy. But the problem lies with heat. If my bike is cold, it is able to crank repeatedly over and over and over, but usually fires right up. When cold, my starter is very strong. BUT when the bike has been running in the heat... maybe even stop and go traffic in the city or something, if I shut it down, I get an extremely slow crank - maybe just a couple revolutions and that's it. That shouldn't be a ground issue, right?
I could still be bad continuity. When the starter/engine cases get hot they expand and may cause a poor connection.
I would follow Randy's suggestion and additionally, re-tighten the starter bolts while it is hot.
These starters can have a bad drag.
Check to see if you starter has phillips head or hex head on the long starter bolts.
If it's a phillips head buy a newer style starter.
Old starters have 2 brushes and newer ones have 4.
Bob W
Quote from: Lotsokids on April 11, 2011, 07:09:08 AM
Good comments, Randy. But the problem lies with heat. If my bike is cold, it is able to crank repeatedly over and over and over, but usually fires right up. When cold, my starter is very strong. BUT when the bike has been running in the heat... maybe even stop and go traffic in the city or something, if I shut it down, I get an extremely slow crank - maybe just a couple revolutions and that's it. That shouldn't be a ground issue, right?
It could be, heat causes higher resistance which means if the ground side is weak when cold it is even worse when hot.
But, with that said the starter will do the same thing when hot as the resistance within the starter is higher than the battery can overcome.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 10, 2011, 11:36:59 PM
Just what are you calling a solenoid? There is a starter relay, but that's not a solenoid. The FJ starter works through a starter clutch. It has no solenoid.
DavidR.
David,
It must be that Texas accent that is throwing everything off...
You say potAHto and I say potato, you say tomato and I tomAHto...But he we both say Yamaha :lol:
This; (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/StarterSolinoid003.jpg~original)
Ford has sold billions of these since the 50's; Starter Solenoid: (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/soleniod1.jpg~original)
A solenoid is a wire wrapped in a coil to create a magnetic field thus actuating a rod. A relay has a small version of that inside and a solenoid has a large version. What they control is dependant on the amperage requirement(s) of the application.
The only connection of a solenoid to the Bendix or starter drive is the actuation of the steel shaft to engage it into the flywheel. Yamaha uses the one way clutch ans leaves the starter in constant mesh so there is not need to actuate a lever to engage the starter drive.
These are two totally different functions and no matter who make the starter drive, they all do the same thing; allow the starter to turn the engine over and then freewheel so the engine doesn't continue to turn the starter when running.
P.S. I have sent an email to Ford Motor Company so they can update all of there service and parts manuals to the correct there terminology. :flag_of_truce:
Randy - RPM
one of the reasons for mine was a main fuse. The starter is still a little slow the first few seconds but then engages fine. I finally had to look what was causing the problem when I got nothing when I turned the key. Not even a headlight and as I checked around showed a blown fuse. It must have been real burnt and just hanging by a thread when I was having the real slow starts.
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 11, 2011, 07:57:20 AM
It could be, heat causes higher resistance which means if the ground side is weak when cold it is even worse when hot.
But, with that said the starter will do the same thing when hot as the resistance within the starter is higher than the battery can overcome.
Got it. That all makes sense. Thank you! :good2:
I guess when I said "solonoid" I assumed the FJ had one mounted on the starter (I didn't look or know). I've rebuilt and tinkered with a billion Chevy small-block V8s and I knew my FJ acted just like those do when you run headers near the starter/solonoid. The smokin' hot exhaust that close really cooks them and makes them fail quickly.
P.S. - My fuses are all perfect.
I would like to add that I drove it today and this this is STILL A BEAST. You need to be an experienced/mature rider to push this thing to the redline through the first few gears!!!
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 11, 2011, 08:23:50 AM
P.S. I have sent an email to Ford Motor Company so they can update all of there service and parts manuals to the correct there terminology. :flag_of_truce:
Randy - RPM
Randy, if you're going to be pedantic, I'm going to attack your use of there/their/they're... !
I agree, I'd call it a solenoid. It's a bigass relay, but common usage calls it a solenoid when it's used in a starter system. In theory a relay is a coil that snaps a set of connections closed/open, but a solenoid does the same thing in a linear fashion to cause movement. Call it a linear relay if you want, I suspect?
Quote from: andyb on April 11, 2011, 11:43:05 AM
I agree, I'd call it a solenoid. It's a bigass relay, but common usage calls it a solenoid when it's used in a starter system. In theory a relay is a coil that snaps a set of connections closed/open, but a solenoid does the same thing in a linear fashion to cause movement. Call it a linear relay if you want, I suspect?
http://www.ee.teihal.gr/labs/electronics/web/downloads/Relays_.pdf (http://www.ee.teihal.gr/labs/electronics/web/downloads/Relays_.pdf)
I call it a solenoid too. The guy at the parts counter knows what I mean. "It's that little round thingy next to the battery :ireful: "
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/Stratoliner07/P4100336.jpg~original)
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/Stratoliner07/P4100337.jpg~original)
Quote from: andyb on April 11, 2011, 11:43:05 AM
Randy, if you're going to be pedantic, I'm going to attack your use of there/their/they're... !
Yes, I know...My dad was an auto mechanics instructor for over 40 years, so sometimes I do have to much knowledge for my own good :mail1:;
but... :bomb:
I must say I was laughing pretty hard when I wrote that 5:23 this morning.:morning2: As I posted it, I was sitting
there in my chair, I got a call from the one & only Amsoil Ed and we chuckled and talked for quite sometime. He was wondering if
they're (Ford) considering renaming the solenoid to a relay and I told him I doubted if the really gave a care about what
their parts are called... :pardon:
Then after our conversation I reread my post I saw the error of my way, but do to the inability to edit the post after a specified time period :ireful:; my boo-boo is now part if the world wide web history... :dash2:
Now back to our regularly scheduled antics... :bye2:
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 11, 2011, 08:23:50 AM
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 10, 2011, 11:36:59 PM
Just what are you calling a solenoid? There is a starter relay, but that's not a solenoid. The FJ starter works through a starter clutch. It has no solenoid.
DavidR.
David,
It must be that Texas accent that is throwing everything off...
You say potAHto and I say potato, you say tomato and I tomAHto...But he we both say Yamaha :lol:
This; (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/StarterSolinoid003.jpg~original)
Ford has sold billions of these since the 50's; Starter Solenoid: (http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/racerrad8/soleniod1.jpg~original)
A solenoid is a wire wrapped in a coil to create a magnetic field thus actuating a rod. A relay has a small version of that inside and a solenoid has a large version. What they control is dependant on the amperage requirement(s) of the application.
The only connection of a solenoid to the Bendix or starter drive is the actuation of the steel shaft to engage it into the flywheel. Yamaha uses the one way clutch ans leaves the starter in constant mesh so there is not need to actuate a lever to engage the starter drive.
These are two totally different functions and no matter who make the starter drive, they all do the same thing; allow the starter to turn the engine over and then freewheel so the engine doesn't continue to turn the starter when running.
P.S. I have sent an email to Ford Motor Company so they can update all of there service and parts manuals to the correct there terminology. :flag_of_truce:
Randy - RPM
Randy, the bold is the difference between a solenoid and a relay.... A solenoid does mechanical work, such as actuate the arm that throws the bendix into engagement. A relay is an electro-mechanical switch, which is a switch ONLY. The Ford part is called a solenoid, but it actually is NOT, it is only a relay.
Quote from: rktmanfj on April 11, 2011, 01:05:18 PM
Quote from: andyb on April 11, 2011, 11:43:05 AM
I agree, I'd call it a solenoid. It's a bigass relay, but common usage calls it a solenoid when it's used in a starter system. In theory a relay is a coil that snaps a set of connections closed/open, but a solenoid does the same thing in a linear fashion to cause movement. Call it a linear relay if you want, I suspect?
http://www.ee.teihal.gr/labs/electronics/web/downloads/Relays_.pdf (http://www.ee.teihal.gr/labs/electronics/web/downloads/Relays_.pdf)
That link pretty much says it all.....
and all this from a bunch o fellas who call engines motors.... chuckles.... solonoid.... :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: DailyDriver on April 11, 2011, 01:07:37 PM
I call it a solenoid too. The guy at the parts counter knows what I mean. "It's that little round thingy next to the battery :ireful: "
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/Stratoliner07/P4100336.jpg~original)
(http://i734.photobucket.com/albums/ww348/Stratoliner07/P4100337.jpg~original)
Nope.... it's a starter relay, just like the diagram shows. David's right, relay yes, solenoid no. Hint: If it switches/controls electrical current, it's a relay.
The "solenoid" shown on the above single line diagram is part of the Calif model's vapor recovery system.
Quote from: Kopfjaeger on April 11, 2011, 08:54:04 PM
and all this from a bunch o fellas who call engines motors.... chuckles.... solonoid.... :rofl: :rofl:
It really depends if you are south of the Mason/Dixon or not. :rofl2:
:bomb:
Quote from: Lotsokids on April 12, 2011, 06:23:21 AM
It really depends if you are south of the Mason/Dixon or not. :rofl2:
I live in south eastern PA. Although I am clearly a Yankee, the Mason/Dixon is maybe 8 miles from my back door. I cross it all the time for tax free shopping! Funny, I don't remember once seeing a sign or anything. Nor do I change what I call my power plant after I've crossed it.
To the point, I call it either an engine or motor depending on mood (not current location). :)
Dan
Sooo much for the guys question...nerds. :crazy:
Quote from: Ratchet_72 on April 12, 2011, 09:08:04 PM
Sooo much for the guys question...nerds. :crazy:
Does that make you a dumb jock then?
Quote from: Ratchet_72 on April 12, 2011, 09:08:04 PM
Sooo much for the guys question...nerds. :crazy:
Which was answered on page 1.
Randy T
Indy
If it really is like a Chevy smack the starter with a hammer while trying to crank it. Just like kids, need a good whack when they are troublesome. Beer usually removes any reservations you may have about this technique. And do remember to have it in park while your girlfriend is turning the key since you're prob'ly under the truck and you already twisted the wires together for the PRN switch and that didn't fix it either. Wait, are we still talking about FJ's?
I'm not convinced its all about the starter motor
just crack the throttle a small amount while cranking and she will fire right up.
KOokaloo!
BUY 13Y start (yamaha xjr), thats all
With all these posts I nearly forgot what the question was, but anyway, my 86 was doing the same thing exactly, for about an annoying year or so of me looking and putting up with it until finally the other day after a few slow cranks it finally stopped turning over for good. And the culprit - that starter relay solenoid thingy that is in the photo's (I would call it a solenoid). Brought a new one, fitted it, guess what, it starts perfect every time now. Fixed, I now love my FJ even more !!
Colin
Quote from: FJ12 on April 26, 2011, 04:10:07 AM
With all these posts I nearly forgot what the question was, but anyway, my 86 was doing the same thing exactly, for about an annoying year or so of me looking and putting up with it until finally the other day after a few slow cranks it finally stopped turning over for good. And the culprit - that starter relay solenoid thingy that is in the photo's (I would call it a solenoid). Brought a new one, fitted it, guess what, it starts perfect every time now. Fixed, I now love my FJ even more !!
Colin
I am guessing that the old one worked just fine, messing with the connections cleaned up the contact and dropped the resistance. Too many times I replaced a part and the problem went away. Tested the old part to find it also worked properly. Put the old part back on and ran it for years more. The older the bike, the more likely you will find this. On the other hand....it was a bad part some of the time. For some, they take it apart to trouble shoot, don't really find anything, put it back together and suddenly it works. Don't care why, it works now, let's ride! It's all part of the experience.
Quote from: FJmonkey on April 26, 2011, 08:05:09 PM
Quote from: FJ12 on April 26, 2011, 04:10:07 AM
With all these posts I nearly forgot what the question was, but anyway, my 86 was doing the same thing exactly, for about an annoying year or so of me looking and putting up with it until finally the other day after a few slow cranks it finally stopped turning over for good. And the culprit - that starter relay solenoid thingy that is in the photo's (I would call it a solenoid). Brought a new one, fitted it, guess what, it starts perfect every time now. Fixed, I now love my FJ even more !!
Colin
I am guessing that the old one worked just fine, messing with the connections cleaned up the contact and dropped the resistance. Too many times I replaced a part and the problem went away. Tested the old part to find it also worked properly. Put the old part back on and ran it for years more. The older the bike, the more likely you will find this. On the other hand....it was a bad part some of the time. For some, they take it apart to trouble shoot, don't really find anything, put it back together and suddenly it works. Don't care why, it works now, let's ride! It's all part of the experience.
Are you sure it was really good? Like the thread title says "when hot". By the time you remove it and bench test it is probably cooler. It could be a hot intermittent condition, so the part may be bad.
Quote from: indyblue on April 28, 2011, 07:01:39 PM
Are you sure it was really good? Like the thread title says "when hot". By the time you remove it and bench test it is probably cooler. It could be a hot intermittent condition, so the part may be bad.
Of course I am not sure, that's why I said "I'm guessing" and included a little later that "It was a bad part some of the time". A bad connection will reduce performance and cause it to heat up much faster. Trouble shoot the easy/free stuff first. Connections fall into that category, just saying.
The problem is solved, that part should be trouble free for many years to come. Back to Kookaloo time.
is there a possibility its not the starter at all and maybe too much compression? i.e. tight valves?
my bike does this. all i gotta do is give it a little throttle and it starts right up. but i was curious, so i did a compression check and it read like this;
155 - 165 - 175 - 160.
that #3 at 175 kinda scares me. i do know the valves are on the tighter side of things. i didn't have smaller shims to swap out so it'll have to be redone first chance i get. i'll have to buy shims from Randy it seems. His prices are good.
Quote from: wakdady on May 02, 2011, 01:27:25 PM
is there a possibility its not the starter at all and maybe too much compression? i.e. tight valves?
my bike does this. all i gotta do is give it a little throttle and it starts right up. but i was curious, so i did a compression check and it read like this;
155 - 165 - 175 - 160.
that #3 at 175 kinda scares me. i do know the valves are on the tighter side of things. i didn't have smaller shims to swap out so it'll have to be redone first chance i get. i'll have to buy shims from Randy it seems. His prices are good.
Short answer: No. Tight valves would result in the valve left partially open, thus your compression would be lower, not higher.
My 86 blows 170 to 175 on all four. The 155 would worry me.
I run my valves on the loose side of spec.
Bob W
Quote from: weymouth399 on May 02, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
My 86 blows 170 to 175 on all four. The 155 would worry me.
I run my valves on the loose side of spec.
Bob W
i got this using the search
"Standard 142psi
Maximum 171psi
Minimum 128psi"
well, if tight valves produce lower compression... and my #3 valves are tight, what would happen if i got the correct shims in there? i want to bring that 175psi down towards 165 ideally, right?
Quote from: wakdady on May 02, 2011, 05:09:39 PM
Quote from: weymouth399 on May 02, 2011, 01:53:17 PM
My 86 blows 170 to 175 on all four. The 155 would worry me.
I run my valves on the loose side of spec.
Bob W
i got this using the search
"Standard 142psi
Maximum 171psi
Minimum 128psi"
well, if tight valves produce lower compression... and my #3 valves are tight, what would happen if i got the correct shims in there? i want to bring that 175psi down towards 165 ideally, right?
Put the next bigger shim in it then, but I couldn't imagine wanting less though. :scratch_one-s_head:
Bob W
you chure? if i'm at .15 in the exhaust, shouldn't i go with a smaller shim to loosen the valve?
I had the same problem with my 88
This weekend I Retighted the bolts on the starter
No more "turns very slowly when hot"
Alain
Quote from: wakdady on May 02, 2011, 05:48:50 PM
you chure? if i'm at .15 in the exhaust, shouldn't i go with a smaller shim to loosen the valve?
Follow the proper procedure and adjust your valves accordingly. Don't worry about 175psi compression, it's fine.
Worry instead about running your bike with tight valves. If they can't close all the way, you can, and will burn them.
All the the higher compression #'s indicate is a build up of carbon. Is your bike running rich? That's a good way to build up carbon.