I have had the good fortune to have had great riding weather for the past couple of weeks and have rode everywhere I had to go in this time, I fear I may have forgot how to drive a car, haha!
Needless to say, but I love riding the FJ (I bought it this past March), and coming from my 1982 GS1100L, the only thing I miss is the great front brake feel of my old Suzuki.
The FJ has EBC pads on it, and look to be in usalble shape, but the problem I'm having is that the level pull seems excessive, before any real braking effort is felt. My Suzuki has brake feel right off the lever stop, and I like the confidence that gives me, as where the FJ requires a HUGE pull on the lever to get her to slow, but once I feel them working, I stop fine (with plenty of front end dive). It makes using the front brakes a herky-jerky affair.
I have read countless post on the subject, and still am not sure where my problem lies.
Is this normal for FJs in general, or is my 30K miled FJ in need of repair/ mod/ replacement/adjustment?
It appears to still be wearing the OEM front brake hoses and stock calipers.
I put my trust in your hands to help me improve my brake feel.
Thanks, Leon
Start with the obvious. Fluid needs to be relatively freshish and free from air. So bleed the hell out of the system and see how much improvement you get.
Sounds like a sticking seal to me. Have you had a fork oil leak recently? I had a similar problem when fork oil got to a caliper and caused a seal to swell. Hard initial pull before any serious braking occurred. Once I got over the threshold, then there was plenty of stopping power available. A caliper rebuild solved my problem.
If you got a late model FJ, a swap to R1/6/FZ1 calipers is cheaper than new seals for the stock caalipers.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on May 27, 2010, 12:51:14 PM
Sounds like a sticking seal to me. Have you had a fork oil leak recently? I had a similar problem when fork oil got to a caliper and caused a seal to swell. Hard initial pull before any serious braking occurred. Once I got over the threshold, then there was plenty of stopping power available. A caliper rebuild solved my problem.
If you got a late model FJ, a swap to R1/6/FZ1 calipers is cheaper than new seals for the stock caalipers.
DavidR.
The lever pull is easy, just alot of take up before actual braking.
Fork seals are dry.
IF all the parts are in good condition, then improvements in feel can be had by:
Put in new fluid and Bleed the system
Change to SS braided lines. Your original lines are way past due for replacement
Replace brake pads with sintered pads
Replace calipers with R1/R6/FZ1/FJR brakes and pads
Cheers,
Arnie
Is your bike an ABS model?
Quote from: the fan on May 27, 2010, 11:16:51 PM
Is your bike an ABS model?
NON ABS.
I find it odd that the hoses are bad, when compared to my Suzuki which is 9 years older than my FJ, and still wears its original hoses.
Would the problem be in the master cylinder piston?
I bleed the brakes last night without any change.
The brakes will lock up with the lever pulled all the way back, it's just that the lever travel seems excessive.
I'd like to feel the brakes earlier into the lever pull than what I'm getting, if that makes any sence.
Thanks, Leon
Age of hoses means very little vs condition and how they were treated, of course.
Know exactly the feeling you're describing though. Most guys simply replace everything with better instead of fixing the problem though.
Quote from: andyb on May 28, 2010, 07:43:25 AM
Age of hoses means very little vs condition and how they were treated, of course.
Know exactly the feeling you're describing though. Most guys simply replace everything with better instead of fixing the problem though.
OK, thanks for that input.
So I'm understanding correctly then, this is a "normal" FJ malady? and no "ONE" part can be the cause?
Replacing the entire braking system is the "fix"? WOW! :dash2: :wacko3:
This is sad, and I had such high regard for the FJ.
Don't blame the FJ because folks replace the whole brake system, rather than fix the existing hardware.
The old stuff was pretty good in 84-92 but time marches on! The new stuff is soooooo much better that the old, and it's cheaper to replace than repair.
With a new MC, stainless lines and blue/gold dot calipers, your brakes will feel so much firmer you will be amazed. I sure was.
Quote from: simi_ed on May 28, 2010, 08:52:20 AM
Don't blame the FJ because folks replace the whole brake system, rather than fix the existing hardware.
The old stuff was pretty good in 84-92 but time marches on! The new stuff is soooooo much better that the old, and it's cheaper to replace than repair.
With a new MC, stainless lines and blue/gold dot calipers, your brakes will feel so much firmer you will be amazed. I sure was.
No doubt, and I don't mean to sound argumentative, but my 1982 GS1100L cruiser, has far better brake feel over the FJ which is 9 years newer and should have 9 years better technology built into it, so I expect that it should be, at least, as good as a bike 9 years older than that.
I hope you see where I'm coming from.
Thanks, Leon
My '89 FJ had far better stock brakes than my old '83 GS1100E ever did.
I suspect that your FJ brakes were never properly serviced, and you're on the receiving end.
You can choose to repair, and probably spend more money, and you will end up with good OEM brakes. Or, you can REPLACE your system, spend LESS money, , and end up with brakes comparable to a late model bike. Your pick; most of us have chosen to go the lower cost/better performance option.
HTH,
Ed
Quote from: simi_ed on May 28, 2010, 09:23:48 AM
My '89 FJ had far better stock brakes than my old '83 GS1100E ever did.
I suspect that your FJ brakes were never properly serviced, and you're on the receiving end.
You can choose to repair, and probably spend more money, and you will end up with good OEM brakes. Or, you can REPLACE your system, spend LESS money, , and end up with brakes comparable to a late model bike. Your pick; most of us have chosen to go the lower cost/better performance option.
HTH,
Ed
My feeling is that the problem lies with the master cylinder.
If I were to replace that, is the stock FJ m/c compatible with the blue dot caliper upgrade?
Quote from: 1tinindian on May 28, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
My feeling is that the problem lies with the master cylinder.
If I were to replace that, is the stock FJ m/c compatible with the blue dot caliper upgrade?
There is a screw that you can adjust on the lever to take up some of the slack you're complaining about.
IIRC it's a 5mm screw with a locknut and this is actually what contacts the MC piston assembly.
You can change the master cylinder completely and it will be "compatible" (maybe usable is better) with new brakes should you decide to change. Be aware that the FJ MC is a 5/8" (15.875mm) bore vs 14mm for most of the newer MC units. This means that the 14mm bore MC's will have greater lever travel (which you want to minimize) to move the same amount of fluid. They will require less squeeze though.
BTW I have ridden ONE FJ that had brakes which had similar 'bite' and power to the gold/blue spot brakes. They did have SS lines and the owner was obsessed with making them as good as the newer brake units. They did require more squeeze than newer brakes.
Cheers,
Arnie
Quote from: Arnie on May 28, 2010, 10:28:17 AM
Quote from: 1tinindian on May 28, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
My feeling is that the problem lies with the master cylinder.
If I were to replace that, is the stock FJ m/c compatible with the blue dot caliper upgrade?
There is a screw that you can adjust on the lever to take up some of the slack you're complaining about.
IIRC it's a 5mm screw with a locknut and this is actually what contacts the MC piston assembly.
You can change the master cylinder completely and it will be "compatible" (maybe usable is better) with new brakes should you decide to change. Be aware that the FJ MC is a 5/8" (15.875mm) bore vs 14mm for most of the newer MC units. This means that the 14mm bore MC's will have greater lever travel (which you want to minimize) to move the same amount of fluid. They will require less squeeze though.
BTW I have ridden ONE FJ that had brakes which had similar 'bite' and power to the gold/blue spot brakes. They did have SS lines and the owner was obsessed with making them as good as the newer brake units. They did require more squeeze than newer brakes.
Cheers,
Arnie
I am aware of this adjustment screw and it is set as deep as it can go.
The thought of trying a longer screw comes to mind.
The FJ m/c would be a better choice if I were to use blue dot calipers? (ie., less lever travel)
Thanks, Leon
Arnie, that's the difference in leverage.
If you consider the area of the piston in the master compared to that of the calipers, you get a ratio. What that ratio is, I don't know (and it really doesn't matter here). Functionally you may consider the calipers to be a fixed area, unless you're changing to a caliper with a different piston area (total, say, 6pots or a different 4pot or really big singles or...).
A 5/8" master has a larger bore than a 14mm. Quick math says 5/8" = 0.625" = 15.875mm. Total area is then 197mm^2. A 14mm master has 153mm^2. So, a 14mm master has (153/197) 77% less fluid moved per given distance traveled by the piston, so the stroke is longer by 28%. This means that the usable travel at the lever is longer, giving a bigger sweet spot and less pressure required.
If you replace a poorly functioning component with one that's different, yet in better condition, the system will work better. So it's a question of what you want to end up with vs what you're starting with, and the condition that you're starting out in.
The monobloc calipers have an advantage in that they are more rigid, so more clamping force is transmitted into squeezing the pads onto the disc, rather than pushing the caliper apart.
(also, hey woot, 500 posts)
AndyB
That's exactly what I was trying to explain without all the numbers. We're in agreement.
Leon,
The FJ MC will work on the blue spot calipers and have less lever travel than the newer 14mm MCs *BUT* you may find them grabby and too sensitive with blue spots.
You could also have caliper seals that are stuck on the piston and retracting them too far. This might be causing the "excess" lever travel you're complaining about. Certainly worth checking.
Cheers,
Arnie
Arnie: Yes, just was clarifying the WHY of it.
As a side note, ask a nurse. When you flush a PICC or other CVC device, most institutions require that you use a 10mL syringe. The rationale is that the bore on a 10 is much larger than a 3 or other smaller one, reducing your leverage, and preventing you from blowing the line to hell (you make less pressure with a given amount of pressure at your thumb). There's your trivia for the day.
Also, it's on my todo list to my FJ, going to a 14mm master on the clutch, to provide a lighter and more precise clutch, to make drag launches easier to modulate power on.
Clarify the lever movement for me. Is there a large amount of movement before the screw hits the plunger? is the movement after the screw hits the plunger? I am betting its the latter. if not you may have a bent or damaged lever.
I adjusted a few stock set-ups and could usually get good feel and power. My YZF had the same calipers and a similar master and felt really good. In any case the later model FJ all should have better brakes stock than your GS. I have worked on several examples of both.
The problem could lie with the lines or the fluid. I recently worked on an older bike, and in the process of bleeding the brakes inadvertently mixed 2 different brands of fluid. For whatever reason the Dot 3 synthetic and Dot 4 wouldn't mix and I could never get good pressure. Flushing the system and re bleeding solved the mystery problem in his case.
I have also found several systems hard to properly bleed and often the problem is a trapped air bubble. The easiest method to remove the bubbles is to park the bike in such a way that the lever end of the master cylinder is the highest point in the system and zip tying the lever over night. This will usually allow any trapped air to escape. In most cases the air is trapped at the top banjo fitting.
in extreme cases I will install a banjo with a bleeder similar to the one pictured below:
(http://www.denniskirk.com/denniskirk/b2c/product_images/d/k/2/600pix/dk272347.jpg)
One time in 100 bleeding brakes can be an absolute nightmare, but keep at it until it all works. The worst set I ever did involved removing the system from the bike and fabricating a bracket that ensured no possible air pockets in the system. That was the easy part. Getting it back on the bike with out messing it up was the challenge.
Quote from: 1tinindian on May 28, 2010, 10:43:11 AM
Quote from: Arnie on May 28, 2010, 10:28:17 AM
Quote from: 1tinindian on May 28, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
My feeling is that the problem lies with the master cylinder.
If I were to replace that, is the stock FJ m/c compatible with the blue dot caliper upgrade?
There is a screw that you can adjust on the lever to take up some of the slack you're complaining about.
IIRC it's a 5mm screw with a locknut and this is actually what contacts the MC piston assembly.
You can change the master cylinder completely and it will be "compatible" (maybe usable is better) with new brakes should you decide to change. Be aware that the FJ MC is a 5/8" (15.875mm) bore vs 14mm for most of the newer MC units. This means that the 14mm bore MC's will have greater lever travel (which you want to minimize) to move the same amount of fluid. They will require less squeeze though.
BTW I have ridden ONE FJ that had brakes which had similar 'bite' and power to the gold/blue spot brakes. They did have SS lines and the owner was obsessed with making them as good as the newer brake units. They did require more squeeze than newer brakes.
Cheers,
Arnie
I am aware of this adjustment screw and it is set as deep as it can go.
The thought of trying a longer screw comes to mind.
The FJ m/c would be a better choice if I were to use blue dot calipers? (ie., less lever travel)
Thanks, Leon
You want to adjust that screw so it is NOT touching the piston.... if you adjust it too far, it will cover the hole that lets fluid back into the master and it WILL lock the brakes eventually.
Most of us that have replaced our frt calipers and MC with modern blue/gold spot parts get them off ebay. My '99 R1 complete system cost me $50 + S&H.... a pair of factory OEM pads for an FJ cost more.
I will NOT run EBC pads up front, ever since my LBS talked me into trying a set of the kevlar pads. They SUCKED! I could pull as hard as I felt safe on the lever and no slowing down.... until I suddenly had a locked-up front wheel, thankfully I didn't crash. My best results have always been with OEM replacement pads.
Quote from: andyb on May 28, 2010, 10:55:20 AM
Also, it's on my todo list to my FJ, going to a 14mm master on the clutch, to provide a lighter and more precise clutch, to make drag launches easier to modulate power on.
AndyB,
Be cautious with this. Going to a 14mm clutch mc may not get the slave to fully release the clutch. This results in difficulty in changing to neutral. Every part of the system has to be exactly right to keep the clutch from dragging at least a bit. DAMHIKIJDOK
Arnie
With a little modification to the brake lever, I was able to decrease the lever pull to a more acceptable amount and after test riding it several time, I'm much happier with the feel and will go with this for the time being.
You all have a great amount of knowledge on this topic and I learn alot with every post.
Thanks, Leon
I have the identical issue with my 89. A friend had the identical problem with his 84. I know because we were both complaining about the front brakes, so we swaped bikes. New pads, changing fluid, thorough bleeding did not help. He bought a used set of SS braided brake lines on ebay. Totally fixed the problem. Obviously my stock brake lines are "bulging" under pressure. You can feel it if you pinch the line with your fingers while pulling hard on the brake. I'm going to invest in braided brake lines.
My 89 had seen better days. I found a master cylinder, calipers, pads AND steel brake lines assembled from an 05 FZ1 w/ 4800 miles on eBay for $80.00. The only modification I made was to cut a small notch in the front of the right handlebar to clear the brake lamp switch to rotate the assembly downward for the proper angle. Much better.
I had a '90. Arnie said it best. R6/R1 calipers----flea bay I found a set for $76. Then ss brake lines. Even just the calipers was amazingly better.My '90 behaved the same way yours does.Cheap,quick, and direct fit fix....like having a new bike :yahoo:
I'm on the hunt for R1/R6 calipers now.
Still wonder if it will be OK to use the FJ master, but not too worried if I would have to replace it with a newer style.
Thanks for all the great input.
Anyone here currently running blue dots with the stock FJ master?
Feedback on how it works?
Thanks,
Leon
Quote from: 1tinindian on June 16, 2010, 12:54:57 PM
Anyone here currently running blue dots with the stock FJ master?
Feedback on how it works?
I am. I'm not a big brake user and I like it just fine.
It requires a bit more squeeze effort, but I personally don't like "one-finger" brakes as I'm sure they would put me on my head in a panic situation where I'd probably grab a big handful and lockup the fornt end. But that's just me.
DavidR
Quote from: 1tinindian on June 16, 2010, 12:54:57 PM
Anyone here currently running blue dots with the stock FJ master?
Feedback on how it works?
I am too Leon, - OEM master with 2003 gold dots.
Very happy with performance. I'm mainly a 1 finger on the lever at all times rider, 2 if pushing it harder. I find 1 finger control perfectly adequate for my everyday controlability. I also have braided lines, sintered pads and Kagizumi rotors.
Harvy
Excellent guys, that helps my understanding a little better.
Now, If I were to also get the proper M/C to go with the blue/gold dot caliper, what M/C would I need to look for if I wanted to avoid the "specimen cup" reservoir? Model and year would greatly help my search for the correct pieces.
Is there anything that would be a direct mount to my stock bars?
Thanks again!
Leon
Here's an example of the FZ-1 MC. This is off a 1st gen FZ-1 (01-05?). Works great, 14mm bore, good match for stock clutch MC.
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_I-D733lDHD0/TBpyl6sVdVI/AAAAAAAAAN4/4LZP9rzgUkM/s640/FZ1_MC.jpg)
Beautiful picture Ed!
Thanks!
Leon