I've always said that I've got more ambition than brains, so -after a few small successes (and many, MANY failures) - I'm going to build a bike to chase the AMA 3000-A-AF record, set by Tom Elrod back in 1977 at 188.006mph. In all honestly, for me, it's more about building this monstrosity than anything else, so just getting the bike to The Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials and running up and down the Salt will be a check in the Success Column for me. Here's Mr. Elrod on his record setting bike:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50786546683_00ea3cc87c_c.jpg)
I had found one FJ1200 on Craigslist and a friend of a friend of a friend caught wind of what I was trying to do and he mentioned that HE had a friend with an FJ that had been sitting outside for years. I was able to get both bikes for a song and after getting "Bike #2" running, I disassembled it to get back some floor space.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784901391_5849781ca5_b.jpg)
So Like & Subscribe on YouTube to receive notifications when I put out new episodes.
I'll be building a complete frame/chassis - using as many stock components as possible (with a few upgrades where needed) - and I'll fabricate the pieces needed to couple the two motors together at the transmission output shafts as I *think* they've worked themselves out in my head. :? My philosophy here, as well as in the past, is that if I'm not asking any single component to do any more than it was intended to do - engines included the most, in the stock configuration, that increases my chances of a successful race week.
I have built & run a dual-engine bike at BMST for 2018 & 2019, so while this isn't my first rodeo, I am still learning new things & new approaches to old ideas every day. I'm also video-documenting the entire build on my YouTube channel, the first episode of the Build debuts on Monday, January 4th 2021. :
Freakhouse Customs Channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9t8OTOAzYqlWjEC7BseqPA)
Or click the picture below:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784439026_dcec8353d7_c.jpg) (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9t8OTOAzYqlWjEC7BseqPA)
A little history of Fran, just so you know this isn't going to be some pipe-dream "build". I haven't missed a BMST since I started going there in 2014.
Back in 2016, I wanted to take a shot at an AMA record. As a complete newb to land speed racing, my greatest fear was that I'd go all the way out there an then fail Scrutineering, so I decided I would build a completely stock bike and make a run at the 1350 Production Classic record. Now, being a Chopper Guy at heart, I didn't actually own many stock parts. Two of the hardest parts to find were the airbox and full exhaust, the 2 things guys chuck almost immediately and replace with performance parts. I searched far and wide and finally found a stock bike out in Bakersfield, CA - this all coincided with the David Mann Chopperfest that I had already planned to attend, so I worked it all into one trip.
Got that bike home, actually got it running, but eventually decided that the 80,000 mile engine I had been running for the last 5 years would be more reliable, so I yanked that engine out of the chopper and installed it into the Production frame. What a pain in the ass that was, I remembered why I started building chops in the first place, because it's way easier to work on without all the extra/stock stuff in the way.
Made it out to Bonneville in 2016 and, long story even longer - I made 2 horrible passes with the carburetors dumping too much gas into the engine and when I went to try to fix it, I somehow tossed a screw down through the carb, started the bike, hammered the screw and bent a valve, ending my race week.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785063632_5a80f6b801_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784200268_e4084e2589_h.jpg)
So, I'm dejected because I blew up my bike on the 2nd pass. The good news is that I was going for an open record, so 2 runs was enough for me to claim the AMA 1350-P-PC record at a super soft 104mph. I was sitting in the garage, looking over the carnage and trying to figure out my next step(s) when my phone rings and a buddy of mine says he's got the answers to my problems... "You've GOT to come get it", he says, "It's got your NAME on it!" :yahoo:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784975536_38f6127ef3_c.jpg)
So now, with an entirely different (but complete) motorcycle, I assemble "Sparkle Panties" to run in AMA 1350-A-CF in 2017
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784220703_f207a9a1e3_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784982611_e3a751a188_b.jpg)
2017 would prove to be one of the small successes I had mentioned before. Even with a bunch of problems, the bike ran all week, it got faster almost every run and I ended up setting the record at 128.437mph. (popcorn)
Just a few more photos, mostly because I love them. :shout:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50723181308_2341bf5e66_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50724005487_30015fe14c_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50723915716_41b6968892_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50724082172_9814476e22_z.jpg)
So... you can see where this is going, right? I've still got the 2016 Production bike, along with the 2017 A/Special Construction bike... so what's a boy to do? Splice 'em both together and make a couple runs in the 3000-A-CF class. :roll:
BMST 2018 had more downs than ups, but I did get the bike running for the event and even managed a couple passes (albeit on only one engine). But at least I got some nice photos.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785117547_c75ae65afd_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785117042_71d3b0954c_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785113987_6ed97671da_z.jpg)
2019 - With a year of "refinement", I went back to the Salt with some shiny paint and a positive attitude.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785140852_c6411c3833_b.jpg)
As usual, I had a BLAST on the Salt
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785041971_14a7d4628f_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785142782_858dac9d0f_b.jpg)
As far as my actual racing? LOL - well, let's just say that the bike came out EXACTLY as I designed it. It ran very well and few actual "gremlins" reared their heads. But she was an ill-handling b!tch the moment I went above 124mph (GPS-verified). Too much rear gear. Too heavy. Too much weight up front. Possibly too much rake. Too much frontal surface area... the list goes on and on. Everything that I thought I knew, turned out to be wrong. :shok:
So. Now. Hopefully taking into account everything I did wrong, I'm going to attempt to learn from those mistakes and take that into this next build.
Here's a quick sketch I did, just to get some ideas out of my head.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785188752_1b3431dcc2_b.jpg)
Pretty wild, kind of a burning man for motorcycles. At this point you could of gone faster and had a more stabile ride with your stock FJ1200. I think with out all that rake it should be a little safer. I look forward to seeing what you can get your double FJ engine bike to do. Welcome to the forum.
QuoteAt this point you could of gone faster and had a more stabile ride with your stock FJ1200
Yes sir, you will get zero argument from me; there are faster & more stable bikes out there, and if I wanted to do "easy", I would have stuck with my ZX14.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50788857223_f9edc6d1bb_h.jpg)
But where's the fun in that? :good2:
For me, it's more about the journey (build) than the eventual destination (setting a record), seeing what I can do on a bike that I built, out of my own head, with my own two hands, that's the reward. Other folks have differing opinions, which suits me just fine.
Ironically, Burning Man is the same week as Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials, I cross paths with many folks heading out that way on my pilgrimage to The Salt.
I applaud what you have done so far. It must have taken a lot of guts to drive that thing up to 128 mph when you could feel it starting to squirm.
I was lucky enough to watch the thrust SSC break the sound barrier out on the black rock . LSR are thrilling.
Steve picked this up a while back.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16908.msg170587#msg170587 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16908.msg170587#msg170587)
Randy - RPM
Quote from: T Legg on January 01, 2021, 10:07:18 PM
It must have taken a lot of guts to drive that thing up to 128 mph when you could feel it starting to squirm.
I've handled "the squirm" before... this was unlike anything I'd ever experienced.
Get in the throttle, it hits the "wall of air" and breaks traction and SHOOTS about 3 FEET to the right. Ok - back out of it, come back on the throttle but this time, when it breaks traction it shoots 5' to the LEFT?!? :shok: It didn't squirm or wander... it SHOT off course.
I tried it 3.. (4?) more times and called it quits. It never did the same "wrong" thing twice.
Lots of theories, by me and by fellow racers/builders on what I did wrong. Hoping to correct (some? most? all!?! of) them on this build. But that's the "fun" of it: build, race, fix, repeat.
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 01, 2021, 10:26:13 PM
Steve picked this up a while back.
Randy - RPM
Neato! Once I get over this whole "double-engine" phase, I've got an AMR Blower on the shelf that I want to chase some Blown records with.
#soManyRecordsSoLittleTime
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50789049423_418b05a4c2_z.jpg)
I have an outboard bearing support plate for an FJ you may be able to put to good use on the new build.
I agree with reducing the rake! Looks like Sparkle Panties was built more as an Arlen Ness tribute than an actual race bike. Good result though! Looking at this further - it follows the form of a lot of the early twin engine drag bikes. The twin engine bikes on the salt seem to have gravitated to less rake. Wonder if it is more for weight distribution? Or weight on the front wheel? I also wonder how much the difference in racing surfaces makes?
Are you using the front half of the FJ frame? If you use early R1 USD forks, the triple clamps from around 2002 or 2003 (need to confirm which years) are 25mm offset vice 35mm to give more trail with the same rake. That's the setup I'm running - stable as a freight train, even with fairly nasty cross winds. Haven't had it on the salt or dirt - so can't comment on it's "off road" abilities!
Chris
Quote from: fj1289 on January 02, 2021, 12:06:30 AM
I have an outboard bearing support plate for an FJ you may be able to put to good use on the new build.
Love it! Thank you for the offer and I'd love to borrow it just to look at it, but to couple the engines together (as I have it spaced out in my head), I am going to have to build an outboard DOUBLE bearing support plate. The plan now is to take the stock transmission sprockets and weld shafts between them to get the chain to go around the rear engine, instead of going under the engine, like how I did the GloWorm. So both shafts will be supported on the "outside" - which is how "normal" dual-engine guys do it. (I love how double engine stuff is becoming "normal" to me! LOL)
Quote
I agree with reducing the rake! Looks like Sparkle Panties was built more as an Arlen Ness tribute than an actual race bike. Good result though! Looking at this further - it follows the form of a lot of the early twin engine drag bikes. The twin engine bikes on the salt seem to have gravitated to less rake. Wonder if it is more for weight distribution? Or weight on the front wheel? I also wonder how much the difference in racing surfaces makes?
So, I'm a "chopper guy" - before I started all this, "too much rake" was not in my vocabulary. But after the 2019 season (and talking to many much more knowledgeable folks than me), the GloWorm had too much rake, which distributed the weight in all the wrong places and... did I mention I was using the stock, 30-year old front springs :shok: ?
In my opinion, the racing surface makes ALL the difference. I won't mention the actual road that you may know of, but it rhymes with "Muscleville", and the GloWorm may - or may not - have gone MUCH faster on that 2-mile stretch of asphalt with ZERO problems than it did on the Salt. Once that tiny 130-rear tire broke loose, all it wanted to do was come around me to say "Hi!" :wacko2: I was at 45º rake with The GloWorm and this time around, I think I will be keeping the rake at 35-38º. I think stock is 35º?
Quote
Are you using the front half of the FJ frame? If you use early R1 USD forks, the triple clamps from around 2002 or 2003 (need to confirm which years) are 25mm offset vice 35mm to give more trail with the same rake. That's the setup I'm running - stable as a freight train, even with fairly nasty cross winds. Haven't had it on the salt or dirt - so can't comment on it's "off road" abilities!
I will be using the FJ neck and -at the time of this writing- the FJ front forks. My plan is to install the 1.0kg RaceTech springs to handle the increased weight, but I like the overall feel of the FJ at speed. If push comes to shove, I have a complete Hayabusa front-end... but I truly believe that the Yamaha parts are up to the task.
fj1289,
Is your outboard bearing support anything like what I've got on my drag bike?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50792232127_07954d2877_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50792115126_6a5165d44d_b.jpg)
I am just now wondering how long I've been missing that one bolt...
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 02, 2021, 11:31:23 AM
... I was at 45º rake with The GloWorm and this time around, I think I will be keeping the rake at 35-38º. I think stock is 35º?
I just went out and measured... I believe stock is 28º, there's 35º on my dragbike, so I'm pretty sure I'm going to limit this build to a maximum of 35º rake.
40º would be too much and even 38º, I think, is more than I need.
Spot on - the FSM says 27.5 degrees.
I wonder when some of us jack up the rear ride height how much it is decreased?!
I'll have to go out to my trailer and dig out the plate - but yes, similar to that. If nothing else it can be an easy template.
Here is the plate and the sprocket:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_02_01_21_5_48_18_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/171_02_01_21_5_48_19_1.jpeg)
Don't know how much of a template this can serve as in reality — looks to be more chassis specific than engine specific.
This was buried in some boxes that came with a couple billet transmissions i purchased recently. They were in a last bunch of parts that were part of Rod Mumford's estate. Also found a very interesting clutch setup while digging through the boxes. Looks like an FJ back plate, but it is a VERY bizarre clutch setup. I'll post more of it on my dragbike project.
Holy cow! The pictures worked on the first try! 2021 is looking better already!!!
:shok:
WHOA! Yes, that looks massive (and awesome)!
Says the guy who's outboard bearing support is going to be 2-feet long!
Looking at that sprocket reminds me to ask the question:
Are you still using the stock chain size & sprockets? I bought before I thought and I will be using the stock sprockets to build my "driveshafts".
Those "parallel" sprockets are one of the methods I was thinking of. Haven't thought a lot about coupling two engines - fun problem set!
I've got countershaft sprockets from 15 to 20 teeth. 16, 17, and maybe 18 offset sprockets (only 3/8" offset!). I can confirm 19 teeth clear the cases and clutch push rod - haven't tried the 20 tooth yet. I use a 530 chain - non o-ring drag race style chains. I'd think an o-ring chain would be smarter on the salt.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 02, 2021, 09:18:52 PM
I've got countershaft sprockets from 15 to 20 teeth. 16, 17, and maybe 18 offset sprockets (only 3/8" offset!). I can confirm 19 teeth clear the cases and clutch push rod
Excellent to know. My 18T sprockets showed up last week, I ordered 6 of them, so I have 2 chances to make the driveshafts correctly. :bomb:
I just have to get some "lathe time" set up with my buddy so I can get that step crossed off the list. Since everything is welded, I'm kinda "stuck" picking one size up front and going with that. When I ran the GloWorm in 2019, I had a few different rear sprockets on hand, but after running, I don't think any of them were actually small enough.
How small did you go on the rear sprocket for the CO Mile? I'm thinking I'd need to get down to a 30-32T back there... with 2 engines, I won't be lacking any torque. :-D
I had a 27 tooth on the back - with an 18 or 19 on the countershaft. I think the smallest you will get on the stock rear is 38. I run an old school PM Chicane rim with a solid rear hub - so you can run a ridiculously small sprocket.
Maybe you can fab a spacer for the cush drive to allow you to run a smaller sprocket? Especially since you are going to be modifying the drive line already.
A 27! Perfect - that reinforces my thinking that I need a S M A L L sprocket.
I'll cross that bridge when I come to it, but if push comes to shove, it shouldn't be too (relatively) difficult to fabricate/machine/cobble together some small stuff.
Thank you!
The VERY FIRST episode of The Juggernaut Build has finally arrived:
The actual name is the "F'n Juggernaut" (see what I did there... F... J... :wacko1:)
Click the pic to view it! :greeting:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50784439026_dcec8353d7_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/TJOdhJF-37k)
Please Like & Subscribe on YouTube!
I've got some good gearing spreadsheets from the purple sage trading post site (purplesagetradingpost.com - good land speed site if you haven't wandered across it yet).
I'd gear for your calculated top speed and add maybe 20% for tire slippage.
I'm guessing with two stock engines in a naked style frame, you should end up right around 200 mph. An 18/31 or 22/38 combo would gear you for 205+/- assume zero slip.
If you can build a flange into your outrigger output, you could change the "front" sprocket (using a bolt-on rear wheel style sprocket) and achieve pretty much any gearing you desire - even if you leave the stock sprocket carrier stock and be limited to a 38 tooth rear sprocket.
edit - just realized those calcs were based on a 17" tire - the stock 16" size is actually a bit taller so would give more speed...
Purple Sage is an invaluable resource, not only to land speed racers, but anyone who's curious about "how gearing works".
Tire slippage seems to be that X-Factor that increases exponentially as I add engines! LOL!
This is where I start having fun! She's a quick/short episode so I hope you enjoy it as much as I had fun making it.
Click Pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50807286467_7af2f46d17_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/LxRrsLVMOBw)
Anyone seen "The Greasy Hands Preachers" on Amazon Prime?
An Indie film I'm sure not for everyone - bit touches for me some of the "why's" for loving this hobby and doing some of the things we do.
Looking forward to "doubling up" the frames!
Does 15-20% slippage jive with what you've experienced? If I remember correctly that was kind of the range I was expecting to see.
Scott Guthrie has a series of articles where he talks about twin engined bikes and cars. The simplified logic was for salt beds more weight = more traction and more power = more speed, so adding an engine gives you both!
Quote from: fj1289 on January 06, 2021, 01:39:34 PM
Does 15-20% slippage jive with what you've experienced? If I remember correctly that was kind of the range I was expecting to see.
Scott Guthrie has a series of articles where he talks about twin engined bikes and cars. The simplified logic was for salt beds more weight = more traction and more power = more speed, so adding an engine gives you both!
15-20% jives... BUT - it is all hinged on the actual Salt conditions, which vary from year to year.
2014 - ZX14- I pinned the speedometer at 190mph, but when I picked up my timeslip, it read 167.563mph! :-O
Now this was my 2nd time down the Salt, ever, so I made the HUGE rookie mistake of simply PEGGING the throttle. If I had just modulated my right wrist better, I should have seen 180-ish. This was my first year, but everyone else said the Salt was WET "worst conditions " they'd seen in years
2016 - I blew my bike up - only 2 runs no data collected
2017 - The Salt was like CONCRETE! Records fell right and left. I am still a n00b, but in my opinion, I would say MY bike had ZERO slippage (when both wheels were touching the ground... but that's another story) I saw 130-131mph on a stock GS1100E motor and that's actually better than what the internet says it should run. I only expected 120-125mph accounting for slippage.
2018 - First year with the dual-engine bike, had troubles with the bike itself, but the Salt was SOLID that year too, IF I had gotten my bike to run right, she would have laid down the 150-160mph I was hoping for, I am sure of it.
2019 - I am still pretty new to LSR, but even I can tell you that the Salt was WET! On top of that, it was wet and the track was choppy. VISIBLE ruts, which I had never experienced in my previous years, I tried every single trick I had learned over the years and ALL my bike would do was slip. I do NOT blame the Salt conditions for my "slow" speeds, but it definitely was a factor. I would also say the slippage AND at a lower MPH than I expected. I actually did the math just now and IF I expected 150mph then -20% of that is 120mph. 160mph - 20% is 128mph and I could not exceed 124mph. I still consider 2019 a failure, but I feel a little better about it now. LOL
There are SO many factors that contribute to a successful (and SUPER unsuccessful) Salt run. Compared to
Nothing is set in stone yet, but I am getting very close to that time where I will need to make some decisions before/while I build this frame.
I've owned these FJ's for... 8 months now and today was the very first time I ever looked at the rear sprocket. It's so CUTE! :wacko1:
I have to count the teeth still, but the interwebs says it should be a 40T? But if i'm lucky the one bike could be a 39T? Is that right?
If so, I don't see how i can go much smaller on a stock wheel... is there a trick to running a 32T? I mean, those bolts look pretty close to the chain already.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50808527478_8de3b6abe6_z.jpg)
I'm used to a 630 chain and GS rear sprockets. The smallest I have on hand is a 36T, but I'm definitely NOT going to run a 630 chain on the new bike
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50809385257_551165628a_z.jpg)
Option B is to run my ZX-14 rear wheel, and the pro would be that I could get a wider rear tire (190) and hi-speed tires are more readily available, but the con is that I would have to get an axle, swingarm and rear shock... $$$
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50809385312_e033927460_z.jpg)
Plan C would be using the Hayabusa axle, swingarm and rear shock that I also have... but no rear wheel... which is just about the same $$$ as getting the ZX14 parts.
I guess Plan D would be to have a conversion axle made to run the ZX14 wheel with the Busa rear bits... but again... $$$$ :shok:
Honestly, I'd rather use the FJ parts if I could. So any advice, tips and tricks would be greatly appreciated! :)
Ok - as usual, a few ways ahead.
My "solution" was purchasing a set of PM Chicane rims several years ago. The rear has a solid aluminum drive hub so can take a very small sprocket. Not all that feasible here.
Of the other wheels you are considering, what is the smallest sprocket they can take? I'm thinking none of them will get as small as you'll need.
On your final drive solution, what's the largest "front" sprocket you think you can run? May be a creative way to avoid the small-sprocket-needed-on-the-rear problem...
Ok - no other alternatives - modify the sprocket carrier and hub and get creative. Random thoughts on that:
1. Narrow the cush drive as much as possible. Turn down the sprocket mounting face on a lathe (good thing you have a friend with a lathe!). Then trim more off the back side "dogs" on the cush drive. Then trim the "webs" on the rim. Then trim the cush drive rubbers to allow the whole thing to sink deeper into the rim. You will probably need to trim the face of the wheel hub that goes into the cush drive too. Is your friend's lathe large enough to check the entire rim into? If not, how competent and confident are you with an angle grinder?!
B. WTF did I recommend all that - all it did was narrow the rim setup - still stuck with the same size hub and sprocket limitations - and misaligned the chain run?!! Now, machine an adapter with a flange to bolt to the "old" sprocket mount, then extends out a little bit at a smaller diameter with a mounting face to mount a smaller sprocket. This should give clearance for the chain for a smaller sprocket. And should clear the swing arm.
Orange. Another option - throw out the cush drive. Trim the "webs" in the rim. Fabricate a new cush drive that accomplishes the above. You could even use a DIY liquid urethane motor mount kit to pour new cush drive "rubbers" to engage your new cush drive dogs.
&. Maybe some other solution? Find an older Yamaha shaft drive rear wheel with the bolt on hub (most? all? later shaft drive rims used a cush drive system, so is not much different from the current issues). Remove the gear drive hub and fabricate a new solid hub to mount a small rear sprocket. If you use the dimensions from a PM hub, you can use the 109Z series sprockets from sprocket specialists.
V. I will try to get pics of the PM hub, and sketches of hub ideas.
Clear as mud? I wonder what other ideas will get floated - there are some seriously smart, talented, and very experienced people on this board!
Also a QUALITY 530 chain will be plenty!
Another also - I have a Blackbird rim that could receive the above treatments - and accepts the FJ axle - and would mount a 180 wide (or 170 for a flatter profile) 17" tire. Long story - the Blackbird rim is not a "typical" FJ mod - I bought it as a GSXR rim since it had been on the rear of a GSXR race bike. Let me know if you are interested in it - it'd be willing to loan it for the duration of the effort.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 07, 2021, 12:12:39 AM
Orange. Another option - throw out the cush drive. Trim the "webs" in the rim. Fabricate a new cush drive that accomplishes the above. You could even use a DIY liquid urethane motor mount kit to pour new cush drive "rubbers" to engage your new cush drive dogs.
Clear as mud? I wonder what other ideas will get floated - there are some seriously smart, talented, and very experienced people on this board!
Also a QUALITY 530 chain will be plenty!
1/B/Orange/&/V - LOVE that, because I do that as well. :good2:
I didn't think of Orange. Right?!? I don't need "cush" on the Salt. I've DIY'd my own urethane bushings (years ago), so it's not a monumental task.
Drag bikes don't even have a cush drive... and I'd like to roll this bike down the drag strip also. I bet Pueblo would let me...
Thanks for the insight, my mind is now a'whirl with the possibilities.
:)
I modify quite a bit. My basic tenant is to always try to make the mods on the least expensive, easiest to replace piece. If not possible, then modify the most durable piece. Don't want to get stuck with a one-off broken part you can't easily replace!
Speaking of modifying... I'm hoping you guys don't end up hating me after watching the next video.
The $500 bike was just that, a bike that was slowly returning to the earth, stored outside, sometimes covered by an awning. The $1000 bike had been laid down... now I'm thinking on BOTH sides. Definite evidence of a crash & slide on the right side, but now that it's apart I think it was crashed on the left previously and someone actually "fixed" the damage that time.
I'll be using as much of the stock parts as I can for the build, and I already have plans to use the extra front end, wheels, brakes, etc in a future bike.
Other thoughts - you may want to find a late swingarm - they switched to steel at some point. A little more weight on the rear wheel. Also easy to weld tabs for bolt-on weights. You may find someone willing to swap for one of you aluminum arms.
Greg Waters showed up for the 2015 or 2016 Colorado Mile with his bike still in Bonneville setup - I think his total weight for bike and rider was over 900 pounds! Lots of weight IN and ON the swingarm.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 07, 2021, 09:50:50 PM
Other thoughts - you may want to find a late swingarm - they switched to steel at some point.
WHAT?!? :shok: Now that's a good bit of info to know.
Anyone want to trade?!? I have welded aluminum before, but it's not pretty - literally or structurally. I've got a couple friends I can go to to do the bracing for me, but if the swingarm was STEEL? That would make it so much easier.
It was always my plan to run BMST then the CO Mile the next weekend, but I could never keep a bike together long enough. LOL! I was bummed when they cancelled the event. I have Salt friends that run The Texas Mile, which I think is in March... and it's not out of the realm of possibility that I have this bike together enough by then... :smile:
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 07, 2021, 10:00:23 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on January 07, 2021, 09:50:50 PM
Other thoughts - you may want to find a late swingarm - they switched to steel at some point.
WHAT?!? :shok: Now that's a good bit of info to know.
Anyone want to trade?!? I have welded aluminum before, but it's not pretty - literally or structurally. I've got a couple friends I can go to to do the bracing for me, but if the swingarm was STEEL? That would make it so much easier.
It was always my plan to run BMST then the CO Mile the next weekend, but I could never keep a bike together long enough. LOL! I was bummed when they cancelled the event. I have Salt friends that run The Texas Mile, which I think is in March... and it's not out of the realm of possibility that I have this bike together enough by then... :smile:
The second TX Mile event is usually in October each year .....
Quote from: fj1289 on January 07, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
The second TX Mile event is usually in October each year .....
Yes, Oct never seems to work for my timeline after BMST. :(
Episode 3 - I finally get the frames/engines mocked up, so I can get a good look at how the bike is going to lay out:
Click pic for video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50813188628_f3595a07ba_z.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/wseMOcSchOs)
Gearing...
Chris had a lot of great suggestions. I think there is one was not expounded on as a viable option with stock parts and not have to do a ton of work.
I would suggest turning the wheel around and have the chain from the jack shaft to the rear wheel be on the right side. Have the jack shaft (engine) drive side be on the same side obviously, but run the jackshaft across the bike and drive the rear wheel from the opposite side. Then, the rear sprocket can be what you already have or that will fit the stock cush drive. The all you have to do the change gearing will at the output sprocket on the jack shaft.
You will just have to modify or fabricate a brake caliper brake and get a longer brake hose from the rear master cylinder to the caliper if you turn the wheel around.
Randy - RPM
This is another fantastic idea! Let's see if I got it right:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50815353258_837c11531e_c.jpg)
How big would I run the (4) front sprockets? Does that make a difference in this scenario?
I ran a jackshaft on the GloWorm, so building/setting one up isn't the problem. But with the Juggernaut, I'm trying to get the wheelbase as short as I can. The 3-4" I'd need to fit a jackshaft is what I'm trying to steal now while I'm building the frame. Now, running a 9 foot long bike isn't a problem for me, but getting this bike to 9 feet or less is my current plan. Definitely something I'd like to experiment with for a future build though.
Just because you said "Jackshaft" - I had to share my "3 Chains" video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50805550467_f78250926b_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/PRSM1jzQl1g)
Is it feasible to increase the bore of the holes in the frame for the swing arm pivot shaft And weld in cups to hold roller bearings? Then use roller bearings in the swing arm pivot? And run the jack shaft as the swing arm pivot?
:dash2: Never mind - that would put the final drive chain run outside the swing arm
Another unorthodox idea - run the jack shaft through the swing arm aft of the shock mount. Again, would require some major welding to the swing arm...
Or reverse rotation camshafts and simply turn the engines around .... ok .... a little cost prohibitive probably.... :flag_of_truce: and you'd have to figure out how to reverse the starter rotation ...
That's it. The gearing is something that would have to be calculated. Of you leave the engine and jackshaft input sprockets the same then its still 1:1. Without diving and not knowing desired final drive ration, but I think if you add an 18 to the engine and say a 16 to the jackshaft output sprocket you now have a 1:1.25 ratio.
The jackshaft must be rigid mounted to the frame so the engine chains stay taunt.
I understand the space concern, I would think you can get the jackshaft done for the difference of basically the shaft diameter. Maybe there is space to run the jackshaft between the engines and have a longer chain to the rear wheel.
Just throwing out ideas...
It's going to be interested in how you are going to control the hydraulic clutch.
I'm thinking two throttle cable boxes. One for pull and if a push cable is required one for that as well.
Randy - RPM
More of my hair-brained jack shaft ideas ...
Fabricate a swingarm that runs on the outside of the frame (kind of similar to the old club man style swing arms). Use roller bearings to run the jack shaft concentric with the swing arm pivot (the way some turbine engines run some compressor sections and/or turbine sections on separate concentric shafts).
I haven't thought much about the multiple throttle cables - interested to see what the "normal" solution is.
Multiple hydraulic clutches could be a pain in the butt though. A way around that - if you can find a lock up clutch for the second engine, just install that with no clutch springs on one engine. Or, even modify it with light springs to keep the pressure plate separated until the centrifugal arms over ride it - slipper clutch style. This would not normally work with an old-school lockup that relies on the output shaft to drive it - - but with the two output shafts joined by a chain, the second output shaft would be turning with the other engine and would begin to lockup as you gained speed by engaging the hydraulic clutch on the other engine.
This would require clutchless shifting on that engine. I assume (always dangerous) that rolling out of the throttle for a clutchless shift is suitable on the salt?
Quote from: fj1289 on January 09, 2021, 10:59:20 AM
More of my hair-brained jack shaft ideas ...
Has the smoke gotten so thick in Colorado that everyone getting a contact high... :crazy:
HAHAHA!!!
It's funny because it's true!
(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/d2/3b/75/d23b758256136a9185e00ad04e9d8bf4.jpg)
I just drove back from Commerce City and I swear you can get a contact high just driving around with the windows up!
Getting Artsy with the camera:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817783253_f08566a08c_h.jpg)
Some fun/funny shots:
#1: Serially... what have I gotten myself into?!?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817761548_001ba41773_h.jpg)
#2: Lined up and looking pretty ok, if I do say so myself. :wacko1:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50817761873_6f8a25917b_h.jpg)
Since you are going to build a custom frame, you can definitely get away with using half of the factory engine mounting points. You can eliminate the top rear mount and you can move the front engine back at lease 3-4 inches. That way you can get the top back edge of the front engine back to the headers of the second engine.
Randy - RPM
Even farther if he just runs the exhaust on the back engine out the sides.
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 09, 2021, 06:40:11 PM
Since you are going to build a custom frame, you can definitely get away with using half of the factory engine mounting points. You can eliminate the top rear mount and you can move the front engine back at lease 3-4 inches. That way you can get the top back edge of the front engine back to the headers of the second engine.
Not only that, but I can take out about another 3" from where the neck extends out on the factory frame. I can get it so the forks are closer to the engine/headers by moving the neck "back".
:yahoo:
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 09, 2021, 07:48:20 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 09, 2021, 06:40:11 PM
Since you are going to build a custom frame, you can definitely get away with using half of the factory engine mounting points. You can eliminate the top rear mount and you can move the front engine back at lease 3-4 inches. That way you can get the top back edge of the front engine back to the headers of the second engine.
Not only that, but I can take out about another 3" from where the neck extends out on the factory frame. I can get it so the forks are closer to the engine/headers by moving the neck "back".
:yahoo:
If you lower the forks, you aren't going to have nearly as much space between the front tire and header as you think. And you can lower it quite a bit - especially if you go with a side exit exhaust.
I lowered the drag bike enough I had to cut and re-weld the sidewinder headers to gain an inch or so clearance. I also reduced the triple clamp offset 10mm so that decreased clearance too (but increased trail).
Quote from: fj1289 on January 09, 2021, 10:40:14 PM
If you lower the forks, you aren't going to have nearly as much space between the front tire and header as you think. And you can lower it quite a bit - especially if you go with a side exit exhaust.
Oh no sir, I do not mean LOWER, just move backwards, towards the rider. If you at where the neck sits in the frame, you can move it backwards, on the horizontal plane keeping the same rake and trail. Since I'm already effecting the wheelbase (dramatically), getting back a few inches this way shouldn't really change anything in my world, except to make it easier for me to reach the handlebars.
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 10, 2021, 10:45:48 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on January 09, 2021, 10:40:14 PM
If you lower the forks, you aren't going to have nearly as much space between the front tire and header as you think. And you can lower it quite a bit - especially if you go with a side exit exhaust.
Oh no sir, I do not mean LOWER, just move backwards, towards the rider. If you at where the neck sits in the frame, you can move it backwards, on the horizontal plane keeping the same rake and trail. Since I'm already effecting the wheelbase (dramatically), getting back a few inches this way shouldn't really change anything in my world, except to make it easier for me to reach the handlebars.
I just assumed you would be shortening the forks to lower the bike to give a smaller front profile and reduce drag. That moves the front tire not just up, but also back. I think you may end up with about the same wheel position as you are looking for, but without the frame fabrication. I know the salt gets rough. Is three inches the specified minimum ground clearance? Is that enough for most salt conditions?
As with every other thing in any form of racing, there are many (MANY) different approaches and many (MANY) different camps. The thing I enjoy the most is the diversity of the builds when I get to the Salt Flats. You could spend the entire week just sitting and staring at the bikes and all the different ways folks have chosen to build them.
My, personal, philosophy - at this time (because it's ever-evolving as I grow and learn), is a variation of the K.I.S.S. principle, my version is:
Keep It Simple (Because I'm) Stupid
So that means, while I am building my own custom frame from scratch, both engines will be pretty much stock, front suspension will be stock (with the addition of HD springs) and the rear suspension will use the stock rear shock & spring... just TWO of them. LOL. For me, and again, this is just MY approach, the "stock" ride height looks pretty good right now. I've got 2 4x4's holding the bike up... so that's about 7" of ground clearance - I'd be happy with 6-7". Would it be better if I was lower? Probably. But when I look at guys running bone-stock Hayabusa and going FASTER than my target speed, I think I'm pretty ok. I mean, look how high Mr. Elrod was when he SET the record! LOL!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50786546683_00ea3cc87c_c.jpg)
But yes, to answer your question, 3" is plenty for the Salt, again - some guy run even less.
In fact, my buddy Marc doesn't run any front suspension at all:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ukOf32cPp4o/WWn-nKzfIbI/AAAAAAABFBc/7t3yJawIw6cQG_MoBZp3vIH5v1_ZgySdgCLcBGAs/s1600/Photo-Sep-07-12-51-42-PM-1024x683.jpg)
He's the current 2000-A-AG record holder at 203.740mph :shok:
That looks like an evolution of one of the bikes from "Out of Nothing". Very cool build. I'll be studying the front steering for a while trying to figure it out!
I also had assumed (once again proving dangerous!) you were going to essentially splice together the front of one frame with the rear of the other with a bit of distance and a lot of structure added. Building your own frame from scratch opens up a lot of possibilities! Very cool!
What class will you be running in and what's the record?
Randy - RPM
Quote from: giantkiller on January 09, 2021, 07:01:56 PM
Even farther if he just runs the exhaust on the back engine out the sides.
True, but at some point the carbs of the front engine and the exhaust on the rear engine will be too close...
Randy - RPM
I'm going to build a bike to chase the AMA 3000-A-AF record, set by Tom Elrod back in 1977 at 188.006mph.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 10, 2021, 05:27:21 PM
That looks like an evolution of one of the bikes from "Out of Nothing". Very cool build. I'll be studying the front steering for a while trying to figure it out!
I also had assumed (once again proving dangerous!) you were going to essentially splice together the front of one frame with the rear of the other with a bit of distance and a lot of structure added. Building your own frame from scratch opens up a lot of possibilities! Very cool!
Yessir! I was lucky enough to meet Carl & Mark Bjorklund that first year I raced on the Salt (2014). I got to meet Jason Omer & Bill Woods in 2016. All of them great guys, and passionate racers. Mark was even kind enough to give me his number when he found out I was going to try to build a dual-engine bike. It was so great to get his unique insight because not many guys are even racing "doubles"... and EVERY single thing he told me/warned me about running a Double on the Salt was right.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50822634668_bf0b79bb90_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50822636123_d5384bbdc3_h.jpg)
If I wanted to try to splice the two frames together there would be SO much that needed to be changed, it's actually easier just starting from scratch. What I'm building & riding right now is just a prototype. Something I can hack and slash away at while I gather the data needed for my own frame.
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
What class will you be running in and what's the record?
I'm going to build a bike to chase the AMA 3000-A-AF record, set by Tom Elrod back in 1977 at 188.006mph.
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 10, 2021, 08:34:32 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
What class will you be running in and what's the record?
I'm going to build a bike to chase the AMA 3000-A-AF record, set by Tom Elrod back in 1977 at 188.006mph.
As I did with Chris, I'll throw my hat in the ring to assist with the record.
Everything from recommendations to advice to technical assistance to getting you dialed in.
Once you get the mock up done, I'll need you to send the carbs to get them set up for you.
Randy -RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 11:05:00 PM
As I did with Chris, I'll throw my hat in the ring to assist with the record.
Everything from recommendations to advice to technical assistance to getting you dialed in.
Once you get the mock up done, I'll need you to send the carbs to get them set up for you.
WOW!!! Thank you, sir! I am flabbergasted.
A future question of mine was "what jetting do you guys use"? But there are definite other factors involved once I figure out the size & shape of the airbox(es).
My other question is: Are there any "free mods" - like cam timing tips and tricks? I'm not ready to tear either of these engines apart yet, and they are both pretty stout performers in the stock trim, but I'm very much open to tuning tips.
Again, THANK YOU! I've only been here a short time, but I already feel pretty welcome here & now your offer puts me over the moon!
:yahoo:
Episode 4! :)
Again, this is NOT the race bike, just the prototype - but I'm getting closer and closer to rolling this beast under her own power!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50824042842_0f0f233255_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/pyB78MTjb94)
As you can see, I'm pretty stoked on my progress.
:greeting:
I can't seem to find an adequate answer on the net as to how the runs are conducted. A lot of the speeds on the official records seem modest if it's a no holds barred top speed run subject only to staying within engine capacity and aerodynamic categories.
188mph (the current record) doesn't seem fast for a 3 litre (presumably twin engine) bike, Chris's one engine bike goes faster than that.
There is obviously something I'm missing here, could someone please shed some light on the process.
Thanks
Noel
Of course, sir!
The easiest answer is a question: How many over 2000cc but equal to or under 3000cc motorcycles can you name?
For the most part, you'd have to build a double engine bike to get over 2000cc's and that went out of vouge once - as you mentioned - bigger/better/badder engines were created.
But let's say you've got yourself a double engine bike. That's when you find out that you've got all the power you need, but you can't get the TRACTION on the Salt. There's an intricate balance of power, weight, chassis and suspension design that needs to be achieved and THEN you've got to hope for a good/dry race course. I've gone faster on my single-engine bike, with ONE stock GS1100E motor than I have with the dual-engine GloWorm - these are things that I am happy to admit and that I am frustratingly happy to try to figure out why I've failed so miserably up to this point. :dash1: LOL!
Also, 3000-A-AF and 3000-A-AG are both NON-aerodynamic classes. No fairings allowed at all. There's a point where you hit "The Wall of Air" that you need to push against, the problem on the Salt vs. the Street is that one the street your rear tire bites and pushes against the Street. On the Salt, there's very little traction, so you have to modulate the throttle and actually ride/steer the bike because when the rear tire does get a bite, all it wants to do is come around the front and say. HI! :nea:
There are many reasons Mr Elrod has held this record since 1976, and a lot of the speeds do seem "modest" until you look at the classes they're racing in. As I've been told by many; If it were easy, everyone would be doing it. :good2:
Noel,
The DLRA (Dry Lake Racers Australia) are still planning to run Speedweek at Lake Gairdner 8-12 March 2021. I know there are a lot of intrastate travel restrictions, but if you are able to go for a day or two it should be very interesting. Always fun to see the variety of entries - from "stock" Production class, vintage and modern, open, partially streamlined, and full streamliners, guys who have reacted to same bike or car for years, people who try new designs or ideas, you name it. Probably the most diverse and innovative form of racing anywhere - and it is still the bastion for the "average enthusiast" minus a few hotly contested classes (typically the "Busa" classes ...).
Add to all this, the opportunities and limitations and challenges the ever changing salt surface brings to the mix. It changes from year to year - wet / dry, soft / hard, smooth / rough / rutted, and any combination of those. And it will change during the meet. Typically multiple courses will be laid out - and even each of those may differ.
Ribbert,
If you do end up going, look for Kim Krebs!
I think, currently, she is the fastest woman in Australia on two-wheels!
Listen to her radio interview: https://youtu.be/ocGpt9Hvbvs (https://youtu.be/ocGpt9Hvbvs)
(https://external.fapa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQHeVJBvG1p_RToZ&w=500&h=261&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FocGpt9Hvbvs%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&cfs=1&ext=jpg&_nc_cb=1&_nc_hash=AQFkvPkLnTmeY8Uq)
Also, I know Bill Dube & Eva Håkansson have shipped The Green Envy from NZ to AUS and they're making their way to the Salt Down Under right now.
Previous to The Green Envy was the KillaJoule which is currently the fastest electric motorcycle on the planet at 270mph!
(https://scontent.fapa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93254656_10157342203870028_1223428847379152896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=2&_nc_sid=e3f864&_nc_ohc=ETUvSmwQ-aMAX8Ixsvk&_nc_ht=scontent.fapa1-2.fna&oh=7abae86c6a53a1b6c47d2fd47cdea190&oe=602341A0)
I'd love to have the opportunity to ship one of my bikes to that Hemisphere and have a blast on that Salt!
Got her together. Rolled her out into the Sun. Shot & Edited some video.
:hi:
Click pic for video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50830763322_4d63a99a8a_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/7F5FIWsZvWw)
F**k YES.
You run it, i'll ride up to Saltlake City and cheer it.
Great video making skills as well.
Already you bring much joy to the forum.
I was really surprised in the amount of flex the temporary brackets showed. Looked like it was going to slowly settle to the floor!
It'll be impressive to see the custom frame as it come together :drinks:
Quote from: andyoutandabout on January 13, 2021, 06:36:02 PM
F**k YES.
You run it, i'll ride up to Saltlake City and cheer it.
Great video making skills as well.
Already you bring much joy to the forum.
Coming from NorCal, you don't have to go all the way to SLC! West Wendover is about 1.5 hours closer to you. :biggrin:
They just announced the dates for the Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials (https://bonnevillespeedtrials.com/):
2021 BMST August 28th-September 2nd
Thank YOU! It means a lot to me that you find watching them as much fun as I had making them!
Quote from: fj1289 on January 13, 2021, 07:42:20 PM
I was really surprised in the amount of flex the temporary brackets showed. Looked like it was going to slowly settle to the floor!
It'll be impressive to see the custom frame as it come together :drinks:
I was surprised that it moved that much also.
I, almost immediately, welded together an upper frame support out of some scrap I had laying around, which eliminated that flex.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50833038028_7cdd4ba0a2_b.jpg)
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 13, 2021, 09:34:36 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on January 13, 2021, 07:42:20 PM
I was really surprised in the amount of flex the temporary brackets showed. Looked like it was going to slowly settle to the floor!
It'll be impressive to see the custom frame as it come together :drinks:
I was surprised that it moved that much also.
I, almost immediately, welded together an upper frame support out of some scrap I had laying around, which eliminated that flex.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50833038028_7cdd4ba0a2_b.jpg)
NEVER in FJ history has a coil mount of one frame been connected to the frame stay mount of another! Awesome!
That "scrap" looks suspiciously familiar too!
Quote from: fj1289 on January 13, 2021, 10:13:20 PM
That "scrap" looks suspiciously familiar too!
Sorry, that scrap isn't something I cut off an FJ.
It's a "bad bend" I had on my Chopper build. I had one of my crazy notions to build a bike using only square/rectangular steel. :)
It's also why I had to take the GloWorm apart, I needed one of the engines so I could have a street bike again.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50835183836_476766e43d_h.jpg)
Also might explain why I don't have a problem riding 10-foot long motorcycles all day long. LOL!
#ifItAintLongItsWrong
Quote from: fj1289 on January 13, 2021, 10:11:22 PM
NEVER in FJ history has a coil mount of one frame been connected to the frame stay mount of another! Awesome!
:good2:
Haha! Nice!!!
If I can't make history any other way, I'll be happy to say I was the first to do this!
:yahoo:
Now, I will say that, in the coming weeks you're going to see a lot of "never in FJ History"... but -let's be honest- it's more because NO ONE should be doing the things I do to an FJ (or 2)!
:wacko2: :rofl: :wacko1: :rofl:
Episode 6! :)
Building a seat gets me one step closer to actually piloting this beast! :shok:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50838277726_5b930054d6_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/L0DHh69ZJ5Y)
Please, please, please put some tape over those carbs (both sets) to keep the welding slag, grinding grit and dirt out of the carbs.
I see the rear frame has tape over the steering head bearing/cup to protect that. You're wearing gloves and a helmet to protect yourself, show those engine some love and protect them too.
I would also recommend putting something in the exhaust ports during this time too if the headers have been removed as that is a direct drop into at least one cylinder per engine.
Finally, if you are building a custom frame, I would start that sooner than later to get away from the lateral frame design of the original frame. That will change a ton of stuff and save time like mocking up that seat for a frame that honestly should be of a totally different design. I'm looking thinking an under engine frame with a single upper backbone. That cleans up so many things and makes the frame narrower for your riding position.
Randy - RPM
Tape over the steering head is simply to stop from getting bearing grease on my shirt every time I leaned over to reach for the bars.
LOL - so... nothing about welding above the open and FULL fuel pump? :dance2:
I didn't even realize I was doing that until I was editing the video a couple days later.
#notTheSharpestToolInTheShed
I will try to do a better job of protecting the engine(s).
It's funny because my wife keeps saying the same thing: "Why are you working so hard on something that won't exist a couple months from now?"
For me, it's all part of the learning process. I'm a computer programmer by trade, you'd think I'd just whip everything up in CAD and then easily pump out a frame that just works. But no. I LIKE this part of the build. For me it's not so much about racing or setting records as it is about figuring out HOW I did it, and (hopefully) how I can improve later. A very foreign concept to some, but to me, it's just how I do it. The next video... and probably half a week in Real Time... is about how I built handlebars for the bike so I can ride it. Some would call it a waste of time, but I NEED to ride this thing first, to see where to go from there.
(we need a Caveman emoji for me)
The videos are about a month behind reality. Had to do that to give myself time to edit and re-shoot if necessary.
Here's the sketch I posted on the first page, in case you missed it:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50785188752_1b3431dcc2_b.jpg)
Talking with Randy yesterday. Wanted to pass on something else from him - when you are thinking your way through the frame design - you only need to use the lower engine mounts front and rear. This should help you same a little length on the build.
I was going to make a freight train reference and I remembered the Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe. JMR - Mike Rieck - did (or is doing?) the heads for Collins Jr's rebuild of the bike. Mike may be able to get you some insights (or access?) to what (as you know!) is probably the fastest multi-engine ride-on bike ever built!
Quote from: fj1289 on January 16, 2021, 08:52:11 PM
Talking with Randy yesterday. Wanted to pass on something else from him - when you are thinking your way through the frame design - you only need to use the lower engine mounts front and rear. This should help you same a little length on the build.
Ha! Irony of ironies, I just finished editing the video that describes how I'm going to build the frame and engine plates. :)
The prototype bike is currently 9' long. With a nip here and a tuck there with the frame I built, I've been able to get it to 8'7", which is only a half foot longer than my Drag Bike.
:yahoo:
The 8'7" measurement - is that the wheelbase? Or the leading edge of the front tire to the trailing edge of the rear tire?
And on the drag bike - is that including the wheelie bars?
I'm not particularly into the salt or LSR attempts but one can't help but be sucked in by the technology and human endeavour that goes into such events and I always find it interesting.
A devastating lost opportunity in my life was missing out on buying a wheel from Donald Campbells "Bluebird" at an auction of automotive memorabilia. A last minute mishap kept me from the event and it sold for a mere $1800, substantially less than I was prepared to bid. The wheels were 52" solid aluminium with pneumatic Dunlop tyres running at 160 psi.
These wheels were obviously unique to the car and this one had been used.
Without looking it up, I believe his record of around 450mph took place in 1964 in Australia, on what to this day is considered the best "salt" in the world. I also believe his record still stands for wheel driven cars. It was gas turbine powered connecting to conventional diffs driving all four wheels.
(https://i.redd.it/gtdu7hon3rj31.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Js_XPVJWTu0XPdXHciI-myghsMsJxQp6hR1ZnGbytTuZw8GF6S9OfnPdNWMetPZjALgPCpCSe6wiL7i87pCKImp2lfmIgfwQyxueYnNY_s57vqf0pLPlb39R4OGs_OuPcaNbZFeiGKvua2erKUzQF6wz05CyJ9ZKA8kx)
And, does record chasing get any better than Burt Munro, of "World's Fastest Indian" fame, being the absolute antithesis of today's computer generated machines. I hope you've all seen that movie.
Noel
In the summer of 97 I took my family out to the black rock dessert several times to watch Craig Breedlove and Andy Green compete to be the first car to officially break the speed of sound. There were few people there to watch. We were allowed to drive right up to their camps and take pictures and talk to the crews as long as no one was making a run. The 9,000 lb spirit of America accelerated much faster than the 20,000 lb thrust SSC but due to technical problems I never saw it break 500 mph. Craig's team was still waiting on new wheels that were rated for eight hundred miles an hour when Andy greens thrust broke the sound barrier. We were there sitting on a small hill with maybe a hundred people present watching the first time the Thrust SSC broke the speed of sound with a speed of 767 mph. Those of us on the hill knew before Andy Green that he had done it because we could hear the sonic boom. They weren't able to make the return run that day so the official record of 763 mph was made later that week. The funding for the Spirit of America dropped out after that so the wheels were never finished and it never ran again on the black rock. The sound of those cars accelerating across the lake bed was awesome. Plumes of dust rose hundreds of feat behind them. The sonic boom was much quieter than the boom made by the fighter jets I used to hear regularly as a kid.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 16, 2021, 10:32:30 PM
The 8'7" measurement - is that the wheelbase? Or the leading edge of the front tire to the trailing edge of the rear tire?
And on the drag bike - is that including the wheelie bars?
That is: "leading edge of the front tire to the trailing edge of the rear tire"
As in... "what fits (and actually doesn't fit right now) in my truck".
I've got her all loaded up (kinda) in the back of my truck right now, heading over to Douglas County Fairgrounds to ride & shoot video later today if you want to witness the insanity. LOL!
:lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin:
I never count the wheelie bars on the drag bike... especially since I don't even need them yet. They're just on there for show.
Quote from: ribbert on January 17, 2021, 07:13:28 AM
I'm not particularly into the salt or LSR attempts but one can't help but be sucked in by the technology and human endeavour that goes into such events and I always find it interesting.
A devastating lost opportunity in my life was missing out on buying a wheel from Donald Campbells "Bluebird" at an auction of automotive memorabilia. A last minute mishap kept me from the event and it sold for a mere $1800, substantially less than I was prepared to bid. The wheels were 52" solid aluminium with pneumatic Dunlop tyres running at 160 psi.
These wheels were obviously unique to the car and this one had been used.
Without looking it up, I believe his record of around 450mph took place in 1964 in Australia, on what to this day is considered the best "salt" in the world. I also believe his record still stands for wheel driven cars. It was gas turbine powered connecting to conventional diffs driving all four wheels.
(https://i.redd.it/gtdu7hon3rj31.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/Js_XPVJWTu0XPdXHciI-myghsMsJxQp6hR1ZnGbytTuZw8GF6S9OfnPdNWMetPZjALgPCpCSe6wiL7i87pCKImp2lfmIgfwQyxueYnNY_s57vqf0pLPlb39R4OGs_OuPcaNbZFeiGKvua2erKUzQF6wz05CyJ9ZKA8kx)
And, does record chasing get any better than Burt Munro, of "World's Fastest Indian" fame, being the absolute antithesis of today's computer generated machines. I hope you've all seen that movie.
Noel
The Bluebird car you have shown set the record at 403 mph in 1964.
The currect wheel-driven record is held by George Poteet at 437 mph, achieved at Bonneville.
Interesting topic............
I'm seeing Poteet's "Speed Demon" as the current record holder for piston engined, wheel driven
cars as being 470.015 mph....
Progress continues to be made.....just a few years ago I watched Teague set piston-engined, wheel driven car set a new 2-way record of about 435 mph.....
I'm ready for someone on a motorcycle to set a new all-time 2 way record!! I think right now it stands at approx. 374mph.
FjLee Denver,CO
Of course the "fastest motorcycle ever ridden" is exciting stuff, but the TRUE beauty of Bonneville is going as fast as you can for what you're on.
I am equally impressed with someone who can go over 100mph with a 100cc engine as I am with the bike going over 300mph.
I keep saying, once I get over this "3000cc Phase" I really want to race in the Classic 350cc or even Classic 175cc classes, probably with a dual-engine two-stroke. :crazy:
Lee - is the record currently held by Ack Attack?
Fran - missed the post about the fairgrounds until later this afternoon - how's it go?
Don't try to "get out" of the 3000 phase too quickly - there's lots of opportunities - including sidecar!
My "problem" is that I got into the bike building game 30 years too late.
And I got into the land speed racing game 40 years too late.
Too many dreams, just not enough time, so I chase and I chase and I chase.
A few things checked off the list, but a WHOLE lot more still to go. As it stands, I might have 2-3 years to commit to this (probably fruitless) endeavor.
Then I've got plans for the next decade, got my eye on a few more records to make (frivolous) attempts at.
:flag_of_truce:
Quote from: fj1289 on January 17, 2021, 08:37:59 PM
Lee - is the record currently held by Ack Attack?
Fran - missed the post about the fairgrounds until later this afternoon - how's it go?
Don't try to "get out" of the 3000 phase too quickly - there's lots of opportunities - including sidecar!
Yes......Rocky Robinson was the rider of Attack Attack, and he had a 2-way pass average of 376 plus. On 1 of those passes, his exit speed was 394!!! This was NOT at a BUBS meet, it was during Mike Cook's Shootout @ Bonneville. AFAIK, that 2010 Ack Attack record still stands.
This in 2010. Since then, they went to the Bolivia, South America Flats....in an attempt for a 400 mph record....but various things prevented a good serious attempt.
Salt condition at Bonneville has recently been a real crapshoot, as Fran can attest to. Good salt one year, terrible salt the next.
Last time I was there, some days I drove through 2 1/2 miles of 24 inch deep brine, to reach the pits.
FjLee
Some EXCELLENT YouTubing here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVTo6c3V4OM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVTo6c3V4OM)
And then... Bolivia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJpmh-qElgo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJpmh-qElgo)
Quote from: Firehawk068 on January 17, 2021, 03:27:32 PM
The Bluebird car you have shown set the record at 403 mph in 1964.
The currect wheel-driven record is held by George Poteet at 437 mph, achieved at Bonneville.
Thanks for sorting that out Alan.
Noel
Quote from: T Legg on January 17, 2021, 08:57:17 AM
In the summer of 97 I took my family out to the black rock dessert several times to watch Craig Breedlove and Andy Green compete to be the first car to officially break the speed of sound.........
Wow Travis, what a historic event to have witnessed first hand. There will never be another milestone in the world of LSR's like that. I can only imagine what it must have looked and sounded like in the flesh.
You could dine out on the "I was there when...." story for the rest of you life.
Noel
Extended the handlebars. One more step closer to hitting the road... hopefully not literally!
:good2:
Click pic to watch the video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50848321133_75db1fa1ce_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/7j8pxS7f-f8)
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 17, 2021, 07:04:22 PM
Of course the "fastest motorcycle ever ridden" is exciting stuff, but the TRUE beauty of Bonneville is going as fast as you can for what you're on.
I am equally impressed with someone who can go over 100mph with a 100cc engine as I am with the bike going over 300mph.
I keep saying, once I get over this "3000cc Phase" I really want to race in the Classic 350cc or even Classic 175cc classes, probably with a dual-engine two-stroke. :crazy:
I can vividly remember one afternoon on US Hwy 36, eastbound out of US 36 raceway in Osborn, MO.
Honda 919, 2002, was my ride. A friend was on his then new RC51.
We pulled side by side and let them loose -
I remember being shocked that we stayed side by side - and even when I hit my maximum speed, he was right there, I could not pull ahead and neither could he.
Indicated was around 155, so probably closer to 140ish, but who knows.
I do know this - when we stopped and were talking, he laughed a bit and mentioned he forgot to go into 6th........
As much fun as that all was, the 1st time I broke 45 on one of our Honda Metropolitan 50 scooters, it was ever bit as much fun as hitting a buck fifty on the 919.
Randy/racerrad8?
Quick question (for anyone who's shipped a motor really), would you happen to know the weight of the FJ1200 engine?
Carbs, no carbs, empty or full of oil. I'm not looking for exact weight, just a ballpark to figure out some suspension & geometry.
Thanks! :)
-Fran
Approx 200-225 lbs.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7688.msg69316#msg69316 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7688.msg69316#msg69316)
Fran, I just watched your handlebar vid....at record speed, 180 mph, I think you will want to be laying down, tucked nice and low on your bike.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 19, 2021, 02:09:26 PM
Approx 200-225 lbs.
Whoa! I completely underestimated that!
I was figuring 150lbs... so I guess I should be impressed with myself for being able to lift it off the ground and up onto the bench.
:shok:
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 19, 2021, 05:13:51 PM
Fran, I just watched your handlebar vid....at record speed, 180 mph, I think you will want to be laying down, tucked nice and low on your bike.
Check out Episode 3... where I explain:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50813188613_ba26708d20_z.jpg)
Now, that said, this is my buddy Jason on his blown GSXR-750 - no fairings, stock ride height. He's already gone faster than what I'm looking for on that bike.
Check out Scooter Shoots:
https://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2019-Bonneville-Motorcycle-Speed-Trials/i-zjkkw5f/A (https://www.scootershoots.com/BUBMotorcycleSpeedTrials/2019-Bonneville-Motorcycle-Speed-Trials/i-zjkkw5f/A)
While, there are many, many (MANY) different approaches to setting up your land speed racer - which is what I love about the sport - the frame design I've got planned out & my seating/riding position should get me where I need to be. I am running a class where Aero is not allowed, so I will just be making do with what I can get by with.
I mean, (check that first picture I posted back on Page 1) Mr. Elrod is running about 60 feet of ground clearance AND the stock headlight (!?!) on his record-setting bike.
:wacko3:
Yeah - I used to do that too - in my 40's. Then again - had to lift two of them into the back of my truck a few weeks ago.
It is a chunk - but they are very solid pieces! Seems like Yamaha went heavy where they needed to! And waited for the 5 valves to try to save some weight!
Actually, compared to the GS1100E, the FJ1200 engines are lightweight.
I cannot lift the GS engine unaided. I'd say an FJ is about the same weight as the GS1000.
Even if I'm looking at 500lbs with 2 engines, I still think I can get the bike built under 700lbs.
:yahoo:
So, I figured I should figure out how to STOP the bike, before I attempt to ride it.
Click pic below for video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50855379982_9229322c4a_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/qKMxr_QXy1c)
Just doing some comparisons from the FJ to my Drag Bike.
Drag Bike has more rake. While I usually go super radical with the rake, on The Juggernaut I won't even have as much as the Drag Bike.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50858624147_3c9cd839a7_h.jpg)
The engines already sit so low, I actually won't be sitting too much further back from the bars
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50858624242_8c537c9ee1_h.jpg)
She's maybe a foot longer and I can get some more back once I switch to my own frame.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50858624427_cc5bf31d3e_c.jpg)
For comparison, my race bike wheelbase is out to 67" now. That is with the lowered forks in 25mm offset triple clamps and the 0-6" extended FZ1 swing arm. It was 64 1/2" which was M-PS legal with the "small" 5# nitrous bottle. I think with some mods to the swing arm I can get it back to 64 1/2" and keep the big bottle. Won't worry about that for this season. Plus, if I ever do get back to the salt, most of the A and A-PS records are actually a bit slower than the M and M-PS records in the 1350 and 1650 engine classes.
The FSM lists the stock wheelbase at 58.7".
Maybe a few extra inches of wheelbase will let you get "behind" the second engine a bit? Might really lower your frontal area. :unknown:
Quote from: fj1289 on January 21, 2021, 01:24:42 AM
Plus, if I ever do get back to the salt, most of the A and A-PS records are actually a bit slower than the M and M-PS records in the 1350 and 1650 engine classes.
IF?!? You're coming this year, right? LOL!!!
I'll introduce you to all the Wrong people!
:wacko3:
Your statement about the A (Special Construction) vs. M (Modified) is very true. I, also, thought that "A" would be the Pinnacle of Speed, but what I've found is that the "Big Boy Bikes": Busa's and ZX14's are so well built, not many people will take the chance to build their own frames, knowing a proven high-speed platform is available from the factory.
There are "tricks" to get you into Special Construction if you want to discuss them - but if you want to build a True "A" bike, you already know a guy who can build you a frame and has some experience with the FJ platform.
:yahoo:
I'd like to actually try the salt lol. With poor salt conditions I have met been in a big hurry to try again. I've still got about 214 things to settle with the mile - somewhere! This season I've decided to go back with a strong "sprint" focus on the 1/4 and hopefully a 1/2 mile event or two. I also still need to dip into the nines - hopefully pretty deep into the nines.
My wheelbase already fits A class. Will probably lower the bike a bit more and maybe cut the subframe rails to lower the seat base enough to be the second criteria for A class.
It seems most everyone brings their own quirks to land speed racing - mine is I still want it recognizable as an FJ
And now, quite literally the moment no one has been waiting for.
The analytics say that no one is even watching the videos any more. But, undaunted, I plod forward.
At the very, very least, click to see if I crash or not.
Click Pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50862166256_92a5ddb07a_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/fPZQ-CuEUK8)
I'm betting you will get a lot more interaction from this group as you get into the hard core fabrication - jogging and fabricating the frame you will be running, the methods of joining the two engines (throttle cables, clutches, chain output, etc), drive train and what not.
I'd characterize most of the people on this site - at least the most active ones - as "practicalists". We each may have a different take on what we want or want to achieve, but most of the approaches are very pragmatic. Your approach to the whole process lends a different perspective.
Before I started, I decided that I'd be making these videos for me - a set of digital memories for when my actual memories start to fade.
No one (not just here, but every where I post) is even clicking to find out if I'm even doing any "hard core fabrication". But, again, if I keep my audience of 10, I will enthusiastically continue to record my memories.
:good2:
Ok - so, onto an actual FJ question.. and if I should ask this in a different section of this forum, just let me know:
I'm putting my RPM order together for the front springs:
(https://www.rpmracingca.com/prodimages/small/M%20C%20FS1.00-1.jpg)
Front Fork Spring 1.00kg/mm (https://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFS1.00)
Is that the heaviest spring I can get? 1.00kg? With all the test rides I've done so far, I can confirm she's a heavy b!tch.
I'm guessing I'm going to need as strong a spring as I can get. If the 1kg springs are it, I can make them work.
(https://www.rpmracingca.com/prodimages/small/M%20C%20FJ41ForkSealKit-1.jpg)
Once I get the springs, is the FJ 41mm Fork Seal & Wiper Kit (https://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFJ41ForkSealKit) all I'm going to need?
I read the "Cartridge Emulator Installation - compressed pics" Word Doc and I have all those tools listed and I've done a couple fork seal replacements on other makes/models, just want to make sure I'm buying all the things I need at the same time.
Thanks in advance!
:)
-Fran
Fran, we can get higher rate springs, but since I'm home with the new baby I am not sure how high they go.
Secondly, reach out to my dad via email as I know he offered to assist in your build and attempt to break some records and I would think the building of the forks would be something he would be open too.
BTW, we can also get you a longer clutch line so you gave have the clutch master cylinder on the handle bars where it belongs so you can control the bike better.
randy@rpmracingca.com
Awesome! THANK YOU!
Congrats on the new baby!
:yahoo:
When I build the real bike, the clutch line(s) will reach, but I will have to split them, which will require a bigger clutch cylinder - a "problem" that I've discussed with someone that's already solved that problem. Another option is to take a more mechanical approach and just build a couple cable-operated 'arms' that will push the clutch pushrods. Lots of "issues", but lots of solutions as well. The location of the clutch lever on the Prototype is simply me just being lazy. Easiest solution to the problem.
:wacko3:
I'll definitely drop your dad an email, but I also don't want to get "crazy" with race/custom parts because this could all turn into a(nother) lesson in futility, like the GloWorm. LOL! But I totally appreciate all the help!
Another answer could be a hybrid cable-hydraulic setup. There was a bike I read about recently - XJ750 Seca maybe that used a cable from the handlebar to operate a remote master cylinder.
So, I'm thinking a clutch lever for a cable operated clutch that splits into two cables. Use the cables to actuate the levers for the hydraulics master cylinders mounted somewhere else on the bike. Minimal new parts and max reutilization of old parts.
Quote from: fj1289 on January 22, 2021, 07:40:58 PM
... used a cable from the handlebar to operate a remote master cylinder.
Ding ding ding! :)
That's how my dual-engine mentor has his clutch activation set up.
:good2:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50753558291_13d4413798_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50752832908_eb525be4b2_b.jpg)
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 22, 2021, 01:14:50 AM
And now, quite literally the moment no one has been waiting for.
That made my night.
I don't get around here much, been lurking again, stumble on this and the timing was perfect.
You fricking rode the beatch.
I don't care if it was one engine with only fuel in the bowls, you rode it.
You're insane dude.
Nice to see
Quote from: FJ1200W on January 22, 2021, 08:55:51 PM
I don't get around here much, been lurking again, stumble on this and the timing was perfect.
Steve, noticed you've been less active. Hopefully this will rekindle the fire on your project: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17737.msg178988#msg178988 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17737.msg178988#msg178988)
Good to see you back.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: FJ1200W on January 22, 2021, 08:55:51 PM
You're insane dude.
Nice to see
Insanity is relative, right?
(That's what I keep telling me, inside my own head, when we are all gathered together)
I feel like my buddy, Mark is crazier than me.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Du442lhSD-k/WWn-mejytVI/AAAAAAABFBE/aQE34WvNmyYGqFn-cJpb3tw6mNH1wm2JACLcBGAs/s1600/Photo-Aug-25-7-02-53-PM-1024x683.jpg)
My mate, Terry, is a looney from across the Pond.
(https://dragracingonline.com/2017/july/images/is_terryhoman-slingshot-bike.jpg?crc=4193205973)
I find that, surrounding myself with insanity, drives me to more insane heights.
What did The Cat say?
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81qQp3RN4WL._AC_SL1000_.jpg)
In all seriousness, thank you! I am having so much fun making these videos and I'm glad you enjoyed this one.
Spoiler alert, I get better at riding her, for longer runs too.
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 22, 2021, 01:14:50 AM
And now, quite literally the moment no one has been waiting for.
The analytics say that no one is even watching the videos any more. But, undaunted, I plod forward.
Buddy, your process of documenting your build is great with the videos. I look forward to each new one to see the progress and see your processes.
As robert already mentioned, we are here to help in you reaching your goal. At some point we need to talk, get on the same page and work on the goal of getting you up and rolling.
Since the videos are behind the build cycle, I'm not sure of you've started the custom frame or not. We are going to have to get a weight of the bike on the custom frame.
I also want to get with Chris and see if he might be able to help running the valves on both engines. He has the proper tools and knowledge to ensure they are properly adjusted for the salt runs.
Since Robert's at home with the grandson, I'll be here at the shop for the next couple of weeks. Before you put an order together, we need to chat.
Randy - RPM
Excellent Randy!
Yes sir, the beauty of having the 2 complete bikes is I basically have a spare everything. So this weekend's plan is to tear apart the Prototype and get the real bike in a rolling chassis, with one engine hung. My wife works for a trucking company, so I should be able to sneak it on their scale. I'll either plop the 2nd engine on the scale as well or just add 225-ish lbs, right?
Having the spares will allow me to continue building while we discuss springs & spring rates and I can build that all up on the bench while I'm working on the race bike. I'm trying to give myself an April deadline to have the bike running on both engines, so I've got to kick it into high gear. I'd like a couple months for test rides and final tweaks and tunes. August will be here before I know it.
Let me get this all squared away this weekend and I'll give you a call next week to formulate a Master Plan!
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_740,w_1100/v1555388801/shape/mentalfloss/pinky_primary.jpg?itok=fkfVeTSK)
(I'm definitely Pinky in this scenario LOL!)
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 22, 2021, 09:57:53 PM
Quote from: FJ1200W on January 22, 2021, 08:55:51 PM
I don't get around here much, been lurking again, stumble on this and the timing was perfect.
Steve, noticed you've been less active. Hopefully this will rekindle the fire on your project: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17737.msg178988#msg178988 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17737.msg178988#msg178988)
Good to see you back.
Randy - RPM
Thank you - I'm ready to kick start my projects again very soon.
I've got to wrap up the "race" motor and then decide which bike to put it in.
Then my daily needs a lot of TLC, it's time to repair the broken plastics and just get it ready for another season.
Greatly appreciate your kind words and assistance
Got a new set of carbs for the Drag Bike!
(Sorry for the non-FJ related content)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50880185831_83648e3b32_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/wC0JDkk3IjM)
What specifically makes the new carbs better?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 27, 2021, 02:03:13 AM
What specifically makes the new carbs better?
Specifically? I would not claim to know that answer, but finally getting my own pair, I am excited to run my own tests.
:unknown:
I think simply a newer design makes them better. 1980 vs. 1990-ish? Ten more years of Mikuni/CV technology. Roundslides vs Flatslides. And I still have to find my gauge, but I think the Gixxer carbs are 38's vs. my stock 34's.
Also -FJ related- I intend to run a test using the FJ's 36mm carbs, as they slip right onto the GS.
:wacko2:
Ok, good to know....yes, if your old carbs were 34mm the added airflow from the 38's will help.
I was curious why you stayed with constant velocity carbs on your drag bike.
CV carbs are great on the street, but on the track, you're waiting for those slides to react.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 27, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
I was curious why you stayed with constant velocity carbs on your drag bike.
Oh, THAT question I can answer with certainty.
$$$
:)
I'm not an "ultimate ET" guy, I'm more of a "How It Works" guy. So for me, figuring out HOW I got fast is more important than how fast I am.
Step One - Stock engine - see how fast I can go. Done.
Step Two - Cheap mods - see how fast i can go. A set of carbs that could get me 2-3 tenths for $150? Done.
I've got modest goals right now, I just want to go 9.999, so I think these carbs (maybe a couple more cheap/free mods) and some good tuning will get be where I want to be. If not, there's always my box of nitrous parts. :)
-Fran
Well all righty then...that looks to be a fun drag bike to practice on, good for you!
Keeping it stock will allow you several hours of training, a wise move. You can work on, and polish, your technique instead of wrenching on a modified engine. Yea, that's a good move. Kudos!
Also, I've thought on more than a dozen occasions when I have them parked next to each other, that the FJ mill would slip right into the drag chassis with very little mods and (even though I hate to be a bench racer) I would bet I could get that 9.99 ET with no mods. While I love the GS11000E for exactly what it is, the reason I picked the FJ is because it was a MUCH more powerful motor when compared stock-to-stock.
:greeting:
After Bonneville this year, in my "off-season", I am going to give that some serious thought.
OOOH! Then I can experiment with the Gixxers carbs on the FJ mill!
#endlessPossibilities #thePartyNeverStops
I get by with a little help from my International friends.
I called out to my good friend and Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials, Mile 1 starter for some help with a little 'mockumentary': The Juggernaut in it's natural habitat
Click Pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50897238026_7135a54f95_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/qJ5FN4c7580)
I'm getting better and better at riding this beastie....
Every English schoolboy worth his salt has an Attenborough impression up his sleeve.
It runs, it drives. That's 90% of buying criteria right there.
Noice
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on January 22, 2021, 01:14:50 AM
And now, quite literally the moment no one has been waiting for.
The analytics say that no one is even watching the videos any more. But, undaunted, I plod forward.
At the very, very least, click to see if I crash or not.
Click Pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50862166256_92a5ddb07a_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/fPZQ-CuEUK8)
Out of curiosity, does YouTube analytics show the regions or countries the videos are watched from?
Quote from: fj1289 on February 02, 2021, 01:43:06 AM
Out of curiosity, does YouTube analytics show the regions or countries the videos are watched from?
It's SUPPOSED to... but it seems like it's taking weeks for that data to be compiled? I am not sure.
Case in point, according to YouTube 284 people watched Episode 1 and 111 of those people are listed as being in the US.
But NO other counts of other countries is given. (?!?)
:dash1:
It's funny you asked, because I'm American-Filipino (1st generation, American born to Filipino immigrants) and I was thinking of running a contest of sorts. Throw it back to my cousins in the homeland and tell them if I can get X amount of subscriptions, I'll fly to the Philippines and build a dual engine scooter or something! LOL! But if I YT's not telling where stuff is coming from, geographically, then I'd never know.
:wacko1:
How's the frame coming along?!
I think it's going spendidly!
:yahoo:
In fact, here's the video that explains the direction I'm going with the frame.
No CAD needed, just good ol' pencil and paper! :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50921197802_d361ee8dcd_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/9ve_yGCUBmk)
Couple more sketches.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50931445836_aedb66cdbd_b.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50930758653_0298c7d497_c.jpg)
Looks good! Build it!
Quote from: fj1289 on February 11, 2021, 08:19:04 PM
Looks good! Build it!
Building, sir! :biggrin:
Always building!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50941390292_5f1bb5acc3_b.jpg)
It's happening!
:yahoo:
The time for theory and drawings is over, time to finally start bending up the new frame. Santa brought me an Affordable Bender and I gotta say I can't believe I waited this long for one.
Click Pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50946012572_5431ed8d9b_c.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/SD9666MZrDI)
Awesome!!! :good2:
What tube are you using?
Out of curiosity how much "spring back" did you see with the 40 degree bends?
Either this was a couple weeks ago or you have at least a little heat in your garage! The temps have been brutal this weekend - way to cold to spend any real time in the garage. :cray:
Are you planning to lose the air boxes and go with pod filters? RPM's UNI filters will save your some space - and Randy has the jetting for them too!
Awesome!!!
Quote from: fj1289 on February 15, 2021, 08:55:25 AM
Awesome!!! :good2:
Thanks! I am super stoked!!!
:greeting:
Quote
What tube are you using?
For the bottom tubes, what you saw in the video, that's 1" OD/ .120" wall. For the "spine" or top tube of the frame, I'll be using 1/2" OD.
Quote
Out of curiosity how much "spring back" did you see with the 40 degree bends?
It's about a 7º spring back, from my experiments. But, to be honest, for this project, I'm more about repeatable angles than exact measurements.
Quote
Either this was a couple weeks ago or you have at least a little heat in your garage! The temps have been brutal this weekend - way to cold to spend any real time in the garage. :cray:
So, anything in my red hoodie was weeks ago (ha - I had a busted knee back then). But when you see me with the black hoodie on, that was shot yesterday! I was shocked the camera didn't pick up my frozen breath on video.
Quote
Are you planning to lose the air boxes and go with pod filters? RPM's UNI filters will save your some space - and Randy has the jetting for them too!
Both bikes came with K&N filters. I like the size and shape of them, so I'm going to attempt to fashion two different air boxes out of sheet metal, or if time allows, I'd really like to get some fiberglass or kevlar or -better still- carbon fiber and try my hand at shaping something! Hopefully, I'm not jinxing myself, but I got a much earlier start on the build this year so I should have more time to try new things.
:drinks:
That's a lot more spring back than I would have expected. Agreed - repeatability is more important than the actual angle.
Mild steel I assume? For ease of fabrication and especially welding
I've done a bit with fiberglass. I've laid up flat sheets on large cake pans that are good for fabricating panels or building up boxes, etc. Also built up male molds to make female molds from and then make the final piece. A lot of work, but the final piece is so much better than trying to just make the part from scratch.
All hail the Juggernaut.
Looking at the drawings is one thing, but to watch it spring to life from ordinary bits of pipe is another.
Plenty of room in the frame for a twin turbo set up.
Keep up the good work
Sorting out the wiring for the Bonneville bike and (I searched I swear) I gotta ask: Do I NEED the fuel pump?
Of course, I have 2 good/working pumps. Running them will not be a problem. The only reason I ask is for simplicity's sake.
Finding one in West Wendover will be an impossibility. If I drove to Salt Lake City (3-hour round trip), I doubt I'd find one either. I do have 3 spare Kawasaki fuel pumps that I could pack... but that's not my question.
The pump is gravity fed... and then the pump, pumps fuel into the carbs... why can't I just gravity feed directly to the carbs?
If the answer is: "If Yamaha didn't need it, they wouldn't have put it there." I can (begrudgingly) live with that. But are there hard facts? Is it a flow vs. supply problem? If I gotta run 'em, I'll run 'em. But if I can eliminate them, that would eliminate TWO potential problems.
Thanks! :)
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on February 27, 2021, 11:52:18 PM
... why can't I just gravity feed directly to the carbs?
If the answer is: "If Yamaha didn't need it, they wouldn't have put it there." I can (begrudgingly) live with that. But are there hard facts? Is it a flow vs. supply problem? If I gotta run 'em, I'll run 'em. But if I can eliminate them, that would eliminate TWO potential problems.
Thanks! :)
Well, Yamaha had both, gravity
and pump, the only difference I think was the needle and seat size. A pump delivers a more positive fuel flow (4-5 psi) and allows for better filtration. The reference to "potential problems" always sticks in my craw in this context, the idea of a pump is to eliminate them! Fuel blockages stop a lot more bikes than failed fuel pumps. I have converted many dozens of vehicles, mostly cars, from gravity to pump for the above reasons. If my FJ didn't have one, it would by the close of business tomorrow!
Your are talking about a fuel pump with a working life in any given year that's measured in minutes! Any low pressure pump will do, just don't go too cheap and there's no need to spend squillions.
Haha, I love the irony of you saying
if Yamaha decreed a fuel pump was needed, then so be it, when you're building a bike with two engines. :biggrin:
Great project by the way, I love your enthusiasm and can-do attitude. With those qualities and a bit of imagination, there's nothin' that can't be made with a pipe bender, welder and angle grinders.
Noel
And a big belt sander! Most useful fabrication tool in my shop. Don't have a mill or lathe.
I too love your, Can do, just do it approach.
A follow on question then seems to be - will a single FJ pump flow enough for both engines at sustained WOT? (My gut tells me it probably would - but I wouldn't want to try it without testing it first!) That way - if one is enough, then you already have a spare!
More I think about this one, the more i think gravity feed is the way to go.
You are putting together a custom fuel system so you can spec LARGE fuel taps and lines to the carbs. When you send the carbs to Randy for rebuild you can let him know the plan for gravity feed and he can supply the proper seats.
On the first version of the dragbike I ran a 1447 engine on oxygenated fuel (requires more volume than non- oxygenated) and ran a gravity setup to the Lectron carbs. Never had any fuel supply problems. I did install a large Pingel tap and ran larger lines than stock.
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on February 27, 2021, 11:52:18 PM
Sorting out the wiring for the Bonneville bike and (I searched I swear) I gotta ask: Do I NEED the fuel pump?
Yes, you need a fuel pump or two. The bigger question as Chris already mentioned, does the O.E. fuel pump have enough flow to supply two sets of carbs? Only the gallon per hour (GPH) can answer that question. Once you determine the GPH of the pump, we can probably figure out if you need one or two.
The gravity FJ's have a "gravity feed system". It starts at the tank & petcock and continues all the way to the needle & seats in the carbs. The fuel system is 10mm to make sure there is enough head pressure to adequately flow the required fuel for demand.
The fuel pump system runs on a 6 or 7mm fuel line, which is what you have. It has a small orifice petcock, a smaller tank opening, smaller hose along with a filter and smaller needle & seats in the carbs. The internal flow of the carbs is also reduced at the fuel tee and single inlet on the fuel pump models. While you can bypass the fuel pump in an emergency to get you home, for your application of sustained wide open throttle, you'll require pressurized fuel supply.
Onto the next topic, wiring. You only need a few wires for this application to run the engine and fuel pump. I wouldn't use any of the stock wiring harness other than maybe a few plugs.
See the attached wring diagram that has been used for close to 30 years powering the Legends racecar. I'm sure you have to have a rider tethered kill switch which can be easily wired into the power circuit after the ignition toggle switch.
If you have any question on the wiring, please let me know.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: fj1289 on February 28, 2021, 09:32:18 AM
...Never had any fuel supply problems. I did install a large Pingel tap and ran larger lines than stock.
Chris, think of the sustained WOT this has over the drag bike. The drag bike has probably 15 seconds max I would suspect. The land speed track is miles long, so it will be held at WOT for significantly longer duration of time.
I disagree, this application is going to require a fuel pump...or two.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: ribbert on February 28, 2021, 02:15:12 AM
The reference to "potential problems" always sticks in my craw in this context, the idea of a pump is to eliminate them! Fuel blockages stop a lot more bikes than failed fuel pumps.
On any bike, when I'm home, I would never question a fuel pump. But the things I've seen fail due to "Salt Gremlins" at Bonneville are innumerable, so for me - K.I.S.S. is my mantra:
Keep It Simple (because I'm) Stupid.
When I built The GloWorm, I had an old ZX6 fuel pump on the shelf. Because the rear engine sat higher than the petcock, I had to use a pump. I ran, and tested that sucker for weeks. Then I decided to buy a brand new one as a back up. That pump stopped working after 3 days. I had purchased on Amazon, so the seller sent me another pump and I was allowed to keep the broken one. After swapping to my original pump, I tore apart the broken pump, pushed some stuff, pulled some stuff and sprayed lubricant everywhere. Slapped it back together and it ran! When the 3rd pump showed up, I took IT all apart and did the same. This is why I have THREE fuel pumps.
EVERYTHING to me is a potential problem when it comes to the remote-ness of The Salt Flats. Everything that can go wrong, once your leave the Boat Ramp, will.
:flag_of_truce:
Quote from: ribbert on February 28, 2021, 02:15:12 AM
Haha, I love the irony of you saying if Yamaha decreed a fuel pump was needed, then so be it, when you're building a bike with two engines. :biggrin:
:-D
Thank you! Believe me, the irony of many of my questions does not escape me.
The #1 reason I chose the FJ1200 platform - and the one that keeps on impressing me - is the simplicity of the design. But at the same time, IMO, it's is the pinnacle of air/oil-cooled engines. The absolute biggest BANG for the Buck you can find. That said, I'm keeping as much as I can bone-stock within my custom frame. Over the last few weeks, I've moved to a new train of thought: Make the bike so that the next owner can roll into a Yamaha dealership and any mechanic, worth his Salt, will be able to work on it, after the initial shock wears off.
:dance2:(see what I did there? With the Salt?) :dance2:
As I am working out the wiring, I'm pretty sure there are less wires in ONE FJ1200 harness than TWO GS1100E harnesses. It is an absolute delight working with the FJ. It's almost like Mama Yamaha knew mad scientists would stumble across the FJ decades after they were sold.
:yahoo:
Quote from: giantkiller on February 28, 2021, 08:42:46 AM
And a big belt sander! Most useful fabrication tool in my shop. Don't have a mill or lathe.
I too love your, Can do, just do it approach.
Oh, I constantly wander over to the belt sander section at Harbor Freight. The things I could do if I had one!!! :)
I'm trawling FB Marketplace and Craigslist daily for a mill or lathe... but I honestly don't know if I have the space to have either.
I have plans to do a video that focuses on how much I do with so little, to hopefully inspire more folks that they Can Do it, if they Just Do It!
:hi:
Quote from: fj1289 on February 28, 2021, 08:55:47 AM
A follow on question then seems to be - will a single FJ pump flow enough for both engines at sustained WOT? (My gut tells me it probably would - but I wouldn't want to try it without testing it first!) That way - if one is enough, then you already have a spare!
I've got plenty of room to mount both. If they are needed, and following my KISS mantra, just as easy to keep the motors on independent systems. The only thing they will share is the same battery.
Now, there's another approach in the works here. Since I plan to ride this bike all over the Front Range and up and over a few Passes, Kenosha, Guanella, Loveland, etc., I don't need to be running both engines all the time. So I am designing the shift linkage to work both transmissions, but also allow a disconnect to run one of them in Neutral so I can ride around town with one engine off.
You've heard of "Street/Strip"? This is "Street/Salt".
:gamer:
Quote from: fj1289 on February 28, 2021, 09:32:18 AM
More I think about this one, the more i think gravity feed is the way to go.
You are putting together a custom fuel system so you can spec LARGE fuel taps and lines to the carbs. When you send the carbs to Randy for rebuild you can let him know the plan for gravity feed and he can supply the proper seats.
On the first version of the dragbike I ran a 1447 engine on oxygenated fuel (requires more volume than non- oxygenated) and ran a gravity setup to the Lectron carbs. Never had any fuel supply problems. I did install a large Pingel tap and ran larger lines than stock.
Exactly my thinking! I'm making my own gas tank and - to be perfectly honest - I'm shocked at how small the fuel inlet is on the stock carbs. I'll try to get a pic of the GS1100 Mikuni's vs the FJ's. Seems like the bottle neck would be at the carbs themselves, but - taking that out of the equation, I can run a high flow petcock (or two). Larger fuel lines to the carbs, all that jazz. But, if we are talking stock to maybe mild engines, do I even need THAT much flow.
This is all awesome Sunday morning conversation for me. Nothing is set in stone, and I have plenty of time to experiment with different approaches. Keep the ideas comin'!!!
:mail1:
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 28, 2021, 09:51:41 AM
The fuel pump system runs on a 6 or 7mm fuel line, which is what you have. It has a small orifice petcock, a smaller tank opening, smaller hose along with a filter and smaller needle & seats in the carbs. The internal flow of the carbs is also reduced at the fuel tee and single inlet on the fuel pump models. While you can bypass the fuel pump in an emergency to get you home, for your application of sustained wide open throttle, you'll require pressurized fuel supply.
And THAT is all the reason I need. If a pressurized fuel supply is needed, then a pressurized fuel system will be used.
For now, (right now... plans can change like the CO weather ;) ) I'll weld in mounts for the two fuel pumps. The complete stock wiring harness will be used - even though I could definitely cut out half of it, as you said - because I love this whole "plug and play" thing I have going on right now. I honestly haven't even tried to memorize the wiring colors yet, because THIS plug only plugs into THAT plug. Oh! Another side-project with this bike is to be able to yank all the wiring out separately for each engine, with the ability to run everything on the bench, off the bike.
Did I mention how much FUN it is learning a new platform?
:lol: :biggrin: :lol: :biggrin:
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 28, 2021, 09:57:27 AM
Chris, think of the sustained WOT this has over the drag bike. The drag bike has probably 15 seconds max I would suspect. The land speed track is miles long, so it will be held at WOT for significantly longer duration of time.
I disagree, this application is going to require a fuel pump...or two.
While I've been doing the 1 mile run up, then covering the measured mile for the last 4 years, I think - in going for the Big Boy record - I'm going to need the 2 mile run up and then the measured mile to get up to 189mph. UNLESS the Salt is like it was in 2017... man, that was a GLORIOUS year. While I never like to take a pessimistic approach, I have to assume the Salt with be wet and slippery, so it's either going to be a full 3 miles or, if needed, there's the Big Boy course with a 5 mile run up.
:wacko1:
The reason I'm in love with the FJ platform is the high horsepower in a simple package. I have the utmost faith that the 2 motors, in stock form, are all the power I need. I feel like it's going to come down to chassis tuning and the Rider... << me being the most unreliable factor LOL! As referenced in a previous post, I've tried to eliminate as many variables as I can, which is why I don't simply run 2 Busa motors. I don't want to add water-cooling - and all it's components - the list of potential failures.
I do not mind running 2 fuel pumps. And my 3 spare pumps are EASILY wired in place if needed and are a band-style clamp mount, so they could (dont' tell tech) be zip-tied into place.
Thank you both for your learned advice. As I said in one of my first videos, the more I dig into the FJ's, the more I DIG this bike!!!
:music:
Invest in quality pumps....don't buy cheap Chinese pumps with a "lifetime warranty"....ask me how I know...
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2021, 11:00:31 AM
Invest in quality pumps....don't buy cheap Chinese pumps with a "lifetime warranty"....ask me how I know...
Oh yes, sir!
True-er words were never spoken.
I have faith in these 2 OEM, 30+ year old pumps.
And my back ups are 1 OEM 2000 Kawasaki ZX6 pump and 2 of the same cheap Chinese pumps - completely disassembled, lubed and re-assembled.
:good2:
FYI We have some fuel pump alternatives listed in our File Section.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=3683.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=3683.0)
Specifically look at the Airtex pumps (from Napa) what the race cars use
With easy access to a manual petcock for fuel shut off, you have a wider selection of candidates.
One large pump or two smaller ones? That's the question..
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2021, 11:34:07 AM
With easy access to a manual petcock for fuel shut off, you have a wider selection of candidates.
One large pump or two smaller ones? That's the question..
For this build it's going to be 2.
Scroll up (or back one page now?) for my reasons.
Oh yeah... and since I run Fuel class, there are rules with which I need to abide.
Quote
2. E. FUEL SHUTOFF AND ENGINE KILL SWITCH
Motorcycles shall be equipped with a positive ignition off switch to terminate engine power. The riders shall be able to use the switch without their hands leaving the handlebars.
Gasoline class motorcycles shall have a fuel shut-off located within easy reach of the rider. Fuel class motorcycles shall have a positive fuel shut-off activated without the riders hand leaving the handlebars.
But I'm old hat at working my build into that rule.
:yes:
Basically, it's just a cable that's hooked to the petcock that pulls it OFF when I push a lever.
Fuel class? I missed that.....what fuel are you planning to run?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 28, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
Fuel class? I missed that.....what fuel are you planning to run?
Haha! So now you're going to get some small insight on The Cheapness of Fran.
At the sanctioned events, a GAS class means you have to run the gasoline provided at the event. At The Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials, the lowest octane rating you can get is 100 and it's about $17/gallon! :shok:
If I go through 10 gallons in an event, I don't want my fuel bill to be almost $200... so in FUEL class you can run anything. I run 87 Octane that I get out of the pump at the Sinclair on the corner, right before I hit the Salt. Unless I remember to fill a jug with 85 Octane from California. Unlike most, I race in Fuel class not so I can run some exotic, power adding fuel, but because I want to run pump gas. Cuz I'm cheap.
:sarcastic:
That's friggin awesome!!! :good:
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on February 28, 2021, 10:33:15 AM
The complete stock wiring harness will be used - even though I could definitely cut out half of it...
Please, please rewire the bike, please.
You can use the factory shut off switch and starter button, but the rest needs to go away. If there is one weak link of the FJ it is the wiring system.
If you wire the engines by the diagram I sent, you can have it running on separate systems.
If you need head and tail lights, then you can wire those into a different switch and eliminate a bunch of problems and weight by wiring it yourself. If you don't want to have problems out on the salt, you best bet is for you to completely require the bike.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 28, 2021, 08:49:13 PM
Please, please rewire the bike, please.
Oh damn... see! Now you're scaring me!
I've ridden the one bike for the last year with zero problems... like at all. No electrical problems, nor mechanical problems. Thru rain/sleet and snow. I think 101ºF was the hottest I've ridden her and -3ºF was the lowest. I would hope any issues would have popped up when she was my daily rider... but now I'm scared.
Not sure if a total rewire will work it's way into the schedule, but (now) what I will do is build the beginnings of a back-up harness and bring my box-o-spare-harnesses with me to The Salt along with a bunch of electrical tape. I'm scared, but right now I'm not worried... write this down, cuz I hope I won't be eating my words come August!
:wacko3:
Top Tube Bent Up! :)
She's all starting to come together now!
Click pic to watch the video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50991786851_c78ddd5aca_m.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/tAwsuOKHawg)
Just found this while trying to drain my well tank (don't ask ... :dash2:) - amazing how long it takes to empty when the stem of the shutoff valve breaks in the nearly closed position. :unknown:
Single tube or dual tube back bone? Dual I assume. What's the secret to making them the same with a bender? Measure and make each bend and then bend to the same angles — assuming the spring back will be the same for both? Didn't see you writing any of it down - magic of editing or eidetic memory for stuff like that?
Quote from: fj1289 on February 28, 2021, 11:56:28 PM
Just found this while trying to drain my well tank (don't ask ... :dash2:) - amazing how long it takes to empty when the stem of the shutoff valve breaks in the nearly closed position. :unknown:
When I removed the tank on the black bike, it didn't have any gas in it. When I removed the tank on the blue bike, I dumped gas everywhere until I found that there WAS a shutoff valve on the petcock!
I just assumed vacuum operated. Nice to see a manual shutoff.
I'm sorry - my original drawings are confusing because, honestly, I was confused when I drew them. I bought the steel months prior and I forgot that I had bought the 1.5" OD for the SINGLE top tube and the 1"OD for everything else. When I started drawing I drew it as a double top tube (1"), but then when I broke out the steel I "found" the 1.5"... pretty easy to find since I bought them in 10-foot-long pieces. LOL!
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on February 28, 2021, 09:50:35 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on February 28, 2021, 08:49:13 PM
Please, please rewire the bike, please.
Oh damn... see! Now you're scaring me
You're building a race bike. If you want the best performance possible then the bike should be properly wired to ensure the coils have the required power supply, the fuel pump is the proper power supply and no "safety device" causes you issues while your on the salt.
It would suck to have a kick stand or neutral switch fail and have the bike shit off every time you drop it into gear.
Send me those carbs as soon as you can so we can get them ready. Pull the pick-up coils too and send them along so I can add some timing too.
I know this is a budget build, but spending money wisely (like properly wiring the bike) will ensure you are successful in your endeavor.
Randy - RPM
And, for my next trick... I saw the neck out of this frame! LOL!!!
Click Pic To Watch Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51014345448_73717bbd29_m.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/iCpkcGvYigc)
My first thought was "how do you use a cut-off wheel with the handle or safety shield still on it?!
Second question - which frame is this double registered under?! :lol:
Quote from: fj1289 on March 08, 2021, 02:19:30 AM
My first thought was "how do you use a cut-off wheel with the handle or safety shield still on it?!
Ha! I was unlucky enough to witness a horrible accident with one and I'm still terrified of the tool to this day.
I only remove the handle when I can't physically fit the grinder in the spot where I want to cut and that gives me the willies.
:bomb:
For someone who CHOOSES to metal-shape for fun, I'm quite timid with all the tools required.
Quote
Second question - which frame is this double registered under?! :lol:
I haven't decided yet. The Blue bike was an 89 and the Black bike was a 90. Both frames are already hacked up now, but both will live on to be registered as FJ1200's. I already have a plan for a single engine "Funny Bike" to test if the sound ordinances up in Denver are still in place... ;)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51016497962_b81756b1fc_b.jpg)
:wacko2:
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 01, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
You're building a race bike.
I don't want to mislead anyone. I'm building a Street bike that I'm going to race.
I don't consider myself a "racer", only a guy who races. To call me a racer would be insulting to the actual folks that are much more dedicated, focused and more talented than me in that arena. I actually don't subscribe to the "-ers". I don't consider myself a buildER either, just a guy who like to tinker and build stuff in his garage. I've stood in the garages of true builders, who - after seeing them work - make me want to go home and break my own fingers so I have an excuse to never pick up a wrench and embarrass myself further.
I'm DIY to a fault, if only to inspire others to Try It Yourself. I'm, honestly, the least qualified guy to be building a(nother) dual-engine motorcycle, but for me it's equally about the Journey (the build) as it is the Destination (record-attempt). I mean, isn't that why we ride motorcycles in the first place?
:good2:
The funny bike idea looks outrageous! And good! Supercharger or turbo? I'm assuming conventional ignition vice the dual magnetos driven off the right side of the crank? Car tire or a 240 or 300 on the rear? Lots of possibilities....
Have you seen these "AMR 500" superchargers? Tiny little things that come off some 1.3L truck in Japan. Tons of moto-guys are using them, they're stupid cheap with like 4 moving parts in total.
Eventually I'd go turbo, but an LSR buddy of mine ran an AMR 300 on his 350cc Moto Guzzi and he was going as fast as I was (he might have even gone faster) on my stock motor'd GS1100E land speed bike!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61qPMP34VGL._AC_SY355_.jpg)
I think a 265 is a 10" tire, right? I'd probably go with something like that... it's really more about how tall a sidewall I can find to get "The Look".
:rofl2:
#soManyIdeasSoLittleTime
If you wanted to put that AMR500 to use on the salt - you could run the pulley off the countershaft sprocket and have boost vary by speed! Of course if you start spinning the tire at speed things get worse ....
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 01, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
Send me those carbs as soon as you can so we can get them ready. Pull the pick-up coils too and send them along so I can add some timing too.
Randy,
I may have painted myself into a corner.
:shok:
Was talking to a few LSR buddies and we got to saying how the first SCTA meeting out at El Mirage in May would be a good "shakedown" for the new bike.
Sooo... now instead of 5 months, I've given myself less than 2 months to get this beast in running/riding order! :-O
That said, we need to talk front springs now. What do we need? Curb weight? I'm going out there right now to see if I can get the weight on each wheel separately as well.
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on March 08, 2021, 12:30:48 AM
And, for my next trick... I saw the neck out of this frame! LOL!!!
Click Pic To Watch Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51014345448_73717bbd29_m.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/iCpkcGvYigc)
I was always a fan of the movie "Crossroads"
I got to see Steve Vai in person, twice!
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on March 10, 2021, 05:53:47 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on March 01, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
Send me those carbs as soon as you can so we can get them ready. Pull the pick-up coils too and send them along so I can add some timing too.
Randy,
I may have painted myself into a corner.
:shok:
Was talking to a few LSR buddies and we got to saying how the first SCTA meeting out at El Mirage in May would be a good "shakedown" for the new bike.
Sooo... now instead of 5 months, I've given myself less than 2 months to get this beast in running/riding order! :-O
That said, we need to talk front springs now. What do we need? Curb weight? I'm going out there right now to see if I can get the weight on each wheel separately as well.
That's not painting yourself into a corner - that's getting serious!
Yes, I need the total weight and the individual weights on each end.
Let me know, Randy - RPM
You also need to get me those carbs too
How goes it?!
If it's like me when I get well into the project, it is very difficult to work and document the project - I always end up with no pictures!
I found the teaser on YouTube ....
HOKEY SMOKES!
Sorry folks, I got on a roll here and realized that if I was to get the build on schedule, I'd have to forego the video-documentary for now. So let's get up to speed:
01/24/2021:
Decided why reinvent the wheel? Used the rear of the frame for the 2 rear motor mounts and so I know the swingarm & rear shock will line up.
Bent a piece of 1.5" tube to the desired shape in my head, affixed the neck to the top tube and bolted up the front end.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100011847_3bb437337d_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100011947_4b8fc2b2e2_h.jpg)
01/25/2021:
Bent up the "bottom" frame rails... also what I call the "seat rails" and tack welded them in to place:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099996904_9cf7b1bcb6_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099916071_83f7381c07_h.jpg)
Now she's finally taking on the shape I had in my head:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100472388_bd334fa43f_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099917726_7009b54fdf_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099998584_5283929b9b_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099998779_eb7202ff5d_h.jpg)
Not going to lie, I totally sat on the bike and made VROOM VROOM noises!
01/31/2021:
Phun with Photoshop!
Just to digitally check if I would have enough room up front for the 2nd engine:
Real Life:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100015527_cb346daee5_h.jpg)
PhotoChop:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100725210_66c0ed626d_h.jpg)
:wacko1:
02/09/2021:
THEN I got seriously serious!
Lined up that front engine and got'em both mounted up solid.
:hi:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100042372_d973acd8b0_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100027659_f419ef2d12_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099948166_f76dbd43d6_b.jpg)
SUPER STOKED at this point. Glad to finally have her out and rolling on two wheels and two engines mounted!
02.20.2021:
Oh yeah.... what's next? Oil Coolers!!!
I took a pair of "hot rod" frame mount transmission fluid oil coolers and mounted them on either side of where the gas tank is going to be.
This dual-cooler idea was one of the first that popped in my head when I was originally dreaming up the bike and I was so excited that they ended up looking BETTER than what I had imagined. Yes, they are 100% form over function, but I have great confidence in their ability to cool at least as well as the stock oil coolers.
:wacko2:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100050897_e59e67cae5_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51099955906_ca3ab7f2a1_h.jpg)
03/11/2021
Built a gas tank.
Built a tail piece.
Hung an old cafe fairing I had hanging on the wall and immediately fell in love with the look. Since I'll need a headlight for street rides at night anyway, I'm going to roll with it. The fairing will not be legal for the class I'm racing at Bonneville, so you won't see it on the bike on the Salt.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100771300_e0692cb973_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100771725_8b438c406c_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100507218_55a0449006_h.jpg)
03/21/2021 -
A bunch of other stuff happened... but most importantly, I removed the front engine - just in case I crashed - this way I'd only potentially damage one of them.
And I rode The Juggernaut for the VERY FIRST TIME!!!
Click pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51100783825_392f0cc491_c.jpg) (https://youtu.be/ubhlkTvLKTg)
Great stuff mate.
you must feel very satisfied getting to this point.
One question re your frame. Given the FJ was built for high speed, particularly with the end of the frame forward of the steering head, would you not weld that part of the frame on?
Or does the rake you've put on alleviate high speed wobbles?
Thank you! A year of planning, about 2 months of work and I am quite chuffed at how she's finally coming out of my head and into the real world.
That said, I've got SO much more to do still, but small bites every day yield great rewards towards the goal!
:good2:
Let me answer your questions in reverse, as (in my opinion only) I feel they are mutually exclusive.
Quote from: Troyskie on April 07, 2021, 03:43:44 AM
Or does the rake you've put on alleviate high speed wobbles?
The rake I added - I believe the stock rake is 27º and I'm right around 37º now - is to improve high speed handling.
As a "chopper guy", I like about 40-45º, but I've found that the added weight of two engines puts too much stress on the front end and doesn't allow it to travel completely so I put in just a little more rake and the low speed handling is really nice. Haven't done any high speed runs yet, but I'm sure it will "lock-in" with the extra 10º
Quote
One question re your frame. Given the FJ was built for high speed, particularly with the end of the frame forward of the steering head, would you not weld that part of the frame on?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51101496803_d0efb3f625_b.jpg)
As far as I can tell, and this is my own opinion, nothing scientifically researched, Mama Yamaha only included that front part of the frame so they could hang the front fairing. To me, the smaller diameter of the tubes going forward compared to the diameter on the sides reinforces that theory. Hey, it was the late 80's/early 90's - bravo to Yamaha for coming up with a new design, but if you look at a new R1 frame, which is how I'll be reinforcing my neck (with the plating wrapping around the neck), you can see they figured out they don't "need" stuff hanging forward of the steering head.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51101758265_5a964191a1_z.jpg)
Hiya folks!
I just threw this little video together because it makes me laugh.
Can any of the FJ Gurus explain to me why this even exists, if NOT to connect the carbs from two different engines to one throttle?
:wacko1: :wacko2: :wacko1: :wacko2:
Click pic to watch the video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51108197121_da866608f9_c.jpg) (https://youtu.be/g7L8GZWQ1L4)
You're probably right with that assumption, but lesser men might think it was put there just to make carb removal, installation and maintenance just a little easier..........especially for those of us that have big fat fingers :sarcastic: :sarcastic: :sarcastic:
HA!
But does it really make it easier? The VERY first thing I did when I unscrewed the cap was lose one of the plastic retainers that connects the cables! :-O
:dash2:
Lucky for me, I have TWO of everything. I would hate to be on the side of the road trying to replace a snapped cable... cuz I'd be THAT guy that would be stranded after flinging that part into traffic!
LOL!!!
I'm just sitting here waiting for a Yamaha representative to contact me and so I can thank them personally for thinking of me... 30 years ago. :crazy:
If you have ever had the joy of fussing over removing the throttle cables from the carb rack on the '91-95 FJ's you will really really appreciate and thank the engineers at Yamaha for that cable splitter box.
After years of hassle on my late model FJ (92) I found it easiest to remove the cables at the throttle, then pull the cables out still connected with the carb rack.
Today, I thought of you...I saw a picture of a LA bike builder and his multi engined Bonneville entry
I'll post a picture and link.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/49_11_04_21_12_05_38.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/49_11_04_21_12_06_33.jpeg)
https://www.bikeexif.com/cb750-land-speed-motorcycle?fbclid=IwAR2zUWivl4BmxZSIDcI4mgREDuoPpk1jQrAsG28x2ko-2ABAIu9UaWT2Q8o (https://www.bikeexif.com/cb750-land-speed-motorcycle?fbclid=IwAR2zUWivl4BmxZSIDcI4mgREDuoPpk1jQrAsG28x2ko-2ABAIu9UaWT2Q8o)
Interesting how he was able to cut off the transmissions on the front 2 engines.
I don't think that polished aluminum will fare well after a week on the salt.
He wasn't very forthcoming about the drive set up. He must have replaced the generators on the left side of the engine with sprockets to connect the three motors and removed the drive chains between the crankshaft and transmission on the front two motors. It's surprising the chain between transmission and crankshaft of the third motor as well as the clutch can hold up to all that horsepower. I would guess it might have up to 270 HP. Pretty cool work.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 11, 2021, 01:00:00 AM
After years of hassle on my late model FJ (92) I found it easiest to remove the cables at the throttle, then pull the cables out still connected with the carb rack.
Pat, you do realise you can create the same (enough anyway) amount of slack you get by disconnecting the cables at the twist grip as you suggest, by just holding or jamming the butterflies wide open.
Didn't someone here post a number of times over the years, with photos, a quick and simple technique for this? It made it so easy. :biggrin:
Rest the carbs on top of the motor roughly above where they will be fitted, wedge the throttles wide open and fit the cables with the now available slack, fit carbies to motor, job done.
Your method makes hard work of it, I'm sure Randy does it the way described above, ask him.
Noel
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on April 10, 2021, 10:35:29 PM
HA!
But does it really make it easier? The VERY first thing I did when I unscrewed the cap was lose one of the plastic retainers that connects the cables! :-O
:dash2:
Lucky for me, I have TWO of everything. I would hate to be on the side of the road trying to replace a snapped cable... cuz I'd be THAT guy that would be stranded after flinging that part into traffic!
LOL!!!
I'm just sitting here waiting for a Yamaha representative to contact me and so I can thank them personally for thinking of me... 30 years ago. :crazy
I've just found it's so much easier on my 3CV than undoing the cables at the throttle, or messing around at the carb body, simply fit the lower cables to the carbs and then pop tem in the box. I've never lost any bits and find it a really useful gadget.
But, like you say, it could have been purposefully designed for twin engined FJ's
Quote from: Millietant on April 11, 2021, 09:21:30 AM
But, like you say, it could have been purposefully designed for twin engined FJ's
I'm going with this, so I don't have to feel bad about doing it the hard way each time.
Kiyo's been a huge influence on my builds and my thought process, even before I wanted to build a dual engine bike.
I first saw his single-engine'd "Cherry Blossom" at Born Free 5 way back in 2013. I probably spent 30-40 minutes crawling all over it, taking pictures.
The plates he used to make it a rigid, totally blew me away. I still want to do a build in that style.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51110155925_f6c1984d8a_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51110156230_3544f98af4_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51109126049_9a6969b06b_h.jpg)
Side note - that was a fantastic trip. I tossed my chopper "Chop Zuki" into my truck and drug it from CO to San Clemente to stay with my buddy. The day of the show, I took the LONG way around, San Clemente - up over the Ortega Hwy into Lake Elsinore - then all the way around up to Corona and then back down into the Santiago Canyon. SoCal guys know what I'm talking about. Rode my chop right onto the show field.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51109293448_3080ac7b6e_h.jpg)
I can't believe it's been that long... feel like yesterday. I had to look up the metadata on my photos to prove to myself that it was really 2013.
So fast forward to 2016. I had built my single-engine land speed bike, but I had an eye ahead to build my first dual-engine bike. I scoured the interwebs and stumbled across Kiyo's "Gecko"... not even realizing it was the same builder, but once I started looking at the details, I saw all the similarities between the "Blossom" and the "Geko".
Kiyo, as a builder, speaks to my soul - but to find out he RACES his beautiful creations? That quadrupled his stock in my eyes. He's already gone faster with two 836's than I have on my double 1100cc monstrousity. I am pretty sure I read he's gone right around 175mph on the Gecko at Bonneville.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51110188470_83dd251986_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51110188440_02f5706c98_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51109408216_01759cf073_h.jpg)
Kiyo's the real deal.
Being "a multi-engine guy" and a huge fan of Kiyo, I've been following along on his buildup of "The Galaxy" from the start.
I keep reaching... and he keeps raising the bar!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51110195725_7ab5e129dc_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51109415726_fd4c841e88_z.jpg)
I've heard all 3 bikes are now at the Haas Museum, I'm hoping to get down to Austin in the Fall if Revival Cycles is holding their "Twist-Off" drag racing event. If that's going down, I plan on coming back thru Dallas so I can stop there.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51110195745_8dd0cd2833_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51108848662_951d9408c9_z.jpg)
Look at the thickness of Kiyo's fork stanchion tubes...those look to be 48mm dia. Much beefier than the FJ's 41mm. I worry about you and your heavy beast on the salt, at speed with those spindly FJ fork tubes.
FYI....the Yamaha YZF1000 Thunder Ace used the stout 48mm stanchion tubes.
A few FJ owners have swapped out their front ends with the Thunder Ace forks, so we know they fit.
Just a thought.....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 11, 2021, 10:52:18 AM
Look at the thickness of Kiyo's fork stanchion tubes...those look to be 48mm dia. Much beefier than the FJ's 41mm. I worry about you and your heavy beast on the salt, at speed with those spindly FJ fork tubes.
FYI....the Yamaha YZF1000 Thunder Ace used the stout 48mm stanchion tubes.
A few FJ owners have swapped out their front ends with the Thunder Ace forks, so we know they fit.
Just a thought.....
My brain agrees with you 1000%.
My wallet disagrees with both of us.
:wacko1:
My gorilla logic says, if Mr Elrod didn't need anything more than the stock forks to set the record 45 years ago, I don't either.
:scratch_one-s_head:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50786546683_00ea3cc87c_c.jpg)
Quote from: ribbert on April 11, 2021, 05:33:11 AM
...you can create the same (enough anyway) amount of slack you get by disconnecting the cables at the twist grip as you suggest, by just holding or jamming the butterflies wide open.
Didn't someone here post a number of times over the years, with photos, a quick and simple technique for this? It made it so easy. :biggrin:
Yes!
This is exactly how I do it on all my bikes.
Usually the first thing I toss is my airbox tho... so I think that skews my vote, since the carbs just pop off with nothing behind them.
:unknown:
Quote from: Millietant on April 11, 2021, 09:21:30 AM
I've never lost any bits and find it a really useful gadget.
See, should have changed my last name to "Murphy" decades ago.
IF it can be lost, I'll lose it.
Always at the WORST possible time.
:dash2:
I will say that - now that you all have educated me on it's intended use, it IS definitely a useful bit to have.
BUT - I still stand by the belief that your use is secondary. Mama Yamaha definitely designed it for me... and now it's going to be a staple of my future double-engine builds!
Better stock up now, cuz when the "Dual Engine" craze catches on, that's going to be a hard part to come by!
:wacko2:
Cool build - lots of attention to detail. I appreciate it, but still prefer form following function - like a functioning rear suspension. Unless the salt is perfect, he'll be leaving a lot of speed on the table. Or in a drag race scenario - unless it has a big wrinkle wall slick and bars, he's going to be very limited with how much power he can hook up on launch and even down track...
Looks like he runs SCTA - does he also run Bub/BMST? Also looks like he runs the gas class vice fuel.
Another thought - you ought to take the fairing with you - if all goes well in the A class - you can follow it up in the APS class! :drinks:
I typed this this morning - but must have missed when I hit "Post" :flag_of_truce:
Pat - I never realized the ThunderAce had RSD forks - always assumed they were USD. Gotta think finding anything for those bikes in the states is like finding hen's teeth in a pile of rocking horse poo ...
I know the front wheels are hard to find - they are the only rim with the R1 style brake rotors for use on R1 forks but still uses the mechanical speed drive for a swap to an older Yamaha.
Quote from: fj1289 on April 11, 2021, 05:34:39 PM
Another thought - you ought to take the fairing with you - if all goes well in the A class - you can follow it up in the APS class! :drinks:
APS-AG-
208.45-Campos, D-Harley-Davidson-1974
APS-AF-
231.597-Campos, D-Harley-Davidson-1974
:rofl: Yeah, the APS records are way faster that I want to go :rofl:
I've seen what it takes to go 200mph on the Salt and, at this moment, it's not something within my budget... or my skills.
:wacko3:
That said, the fairing IS coming with me, for photos & driving around West Wendover. It's just not legal in the class I want to race in.
If - by some astronomical chance - I manage to get the A-AF record, I would then consider going for the A-AG record.
:gamer:
Quote from: fj1289 on April 11, 2021, 07:07:50 PM
Pat - I never realized the ThunderAce had RSD forks - always assumed they were USD. Gotta think finding anything for those bikes in the states is like finding hen's teeth in a pile of rocking horse poo ...
UK FleaBay is where you look....
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 12, 2021, 12:44:36 AM
UK FleaBay is where you look....
Ha! Shipping prices from Canada is usually a deal breaker for me!
:wacko3:
(is there a "skinflint" emoji?) LOL!
I was happy with how she rode on one engine, so I tossed the 2nd motor in.
Still cruising on just the rear engine (need to build the outboard bearing support/engine coupler), but she's a well balanced and smooth ride.
I was even able to make a u-turn and come back down the hill with very little fanfare.
:i_am_so_happy:
Click pic for video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51108097698_a9c35c88d2_b.jpg) (https://youtu.be/c1kc6aNZLyU)
"Look Jack! I'm FLYING!!!!"
Engines coupled!
Now PLEASE note that this is just a mock-up. I need to schedule time to get on a lathe and build the individual pieces square and true, but for now, I just needed to see WHAT I needed to make and figure out how I'll be making the needed parts for myself.
That said - Video #1 is rear-engine, driving the drivetrain. Front-engine in neutral.
Click pic for video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51112040073_59c8729f37_c.jpg) (https://youtu.be/Y6GMb9h0Q-Q)
Video #2:
Front-engine driving the drivetrain.
Rear-engine in Neutral.
If you watch this video, you'll see why I won't be trying to get both engines to sling the chain at the same time.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51111597801_4fa8f9eaf1_c.jpg) (https://youtu.be/d_Minyvyqwo)
Okie Dokie.
Here it is folks - my "How-It-Works" video where I (attempt to) explain the easiest way to build a dual-engine motorcycle.
Anyone with a level, a welder and a grinder can do it. It really is as easy as it looks.
You don't need CAD or lasers... a plumb bob might help... but honestly, there's nothing special about it. Or me.
:hi:
Click pic for video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51114336266_3c3acfff3b_c.jpg) (https://youtu.be/YexzFDx3Geo)
Cool!
Will the final design incorporate an adjustable roller or slider pad mid run to take up slack? Or do you tweak one or both engine angles to achieve the same?
Whoops! I still have a piece to figure out how to install. My plan is to use a primary chain tensioner from a Harley, because that's what I just happened to have sitting on my shelf. Don't ask me why I even have this part, as I've never even owned a Harley, but it's a nice piece that fits the bill. Please note that what you're looking at are 630 chain and sprockets - again what I had laying about - the real engine coupler will use 530 chain and sprockets.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51115383675_9157d97732_c.jpg)
Once it's all said and done, I'll have a slot cut into the back plate where the tensioner can slide up and down to remove the slack - and I want to build a chain guide that the top of the chain will glide on simply to stop the chain from whipping up and down as well.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51114501573_2bb4da2a29_c.jpg)
Quote from: ribbert on April 11, 2021, 05:33:11 AM
Pat, you do realise you can create the same (enough anyway) amount of slack you get by disconnecting the cables at the twist grip as you suggest, by just holding or jamming the butterflies wide open.
Didn't someone here post a number of times over the years, with photos, a quick and simple technique for this? It made it so easy. :biggrin:
Rest the carbs on top of the motor roughly above where they will be fitted, wedge the throttles wide open and fit the cables with the now available slack, fit carbies to motor, job done.
Your method makes hard work of it, I'm sure Randy does it the way described above, ask him.
Noel
Noel is right on that. We hold them open. The only thing I would add is, if you are going to put something in there to hold them open make sure it is the plastic end of the screw driver or something similar. Don't ask me how but I have seen more than a few sets that had the butterflies damaged by something. Whether they were dropped or whatever the case may have been. Always better to be safe then sorry.
Quote from: RPM - Robert on April 14, 2021, 10:57:06 AM
Quote from: ribbert on April 11, 2021, 05:33:11 AM
Pat, you do realise you can create the same (enough anyway) amount of slack you get by disconnecting the cables at the twist grip as you suggest, by just holding or jamming the butterflies wide open.
Didn't someone here post a number of times over the years, with photos, a quick and simple technique for this? It made it so easy. :biggrin:
Rest the carbs on top of the motor roughly above where they will be fitted, wedge the throttles wide open and fit the cables with the now available slack, fit carbies to motor, job done.
Your method makes hard work of it, I'm sure Randy does it the way described above, ask him.
Noel
Noel is right on that. We hold them open. The only thing I would add is, if you are going to put something in there to hold them open make sure it is the plastic end of the screw driver or something similar. Don't ask me how but I have seen more than a few sets that had the butterflies damaged by something. Whether they were dropped or whatever the case may have been. Always better to be safe then sorry.
Yes, I've done it that way a few times...using a soft wood dowel to hold the throttle plate open....then futzing with the cable barrels on the linkage...I didn't like it. The bowls are full of fuel, turning the rack upside down. I too worried about bending the throttle plates.
For me, it's easier to just disconnect the cables at the throttle...
I use this time to lubricate the cables, clean and dry lube the throttle tube.
Regardless....
I think we all agree that carb removal with the splitter box is the easier softer way.....(don't we?)
I'll agree that, either way, the push cable can be a royal PITA to get hooked up.
Rode her down to the local chopper shop down the hill for a Weiner Roast last weekend.
36ºF and she started and rode pretty well. This was just on the rear engine.
Got home before it started to snow again.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51139689119_7c257c6164_h.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51138915401_6e0928bb08_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51139689074_e1c44b59d6_h.jpg)
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on April 25, 2021, 09:49:54 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51138915401_6e0928bb08_c.jpg)
Haha, and here I was thinking carrying a spare ignition unit and coil in my tool box would cover any breakdown. Man, I never thought of taking a whole spare engine....next level!!
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on April 26, 2021, 05:53:25 AM
Haha, and here I was thinking carrying a spare ignition unit and coil in my tool box would cover any breakdown. Man, I never thought of taking a whole spare engine....next level!!
Noel
As this build evolves and I come up with new & more ridiculous plans, I'm going to build it with different shift rod linkages, so I can run it on one engine -the other engine off & in neutral. If anything happens, I will just switch to the "backup motor"!
:wacko1:
I got to thinking about shift linkages on this monster last night - extended shift linkages on the drag bike caused me enough headache I did away with it and went to a lever directly on the shift shaft - and the reverse shifting pattern that goes with it
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on April 26, 2021, 11:41:11 AM
As this build evolves and I come up with new & more ridiculous plans, I'm going to build it with different shift rod linkages, so I can run it on one engine -the other engine off & in neutral. If anything happens, I will just switch to the "backup motor"!
:wacko1:
Are you running the bike with the chain connecting the two engines?
I do believe that I read something about NOT towing the FJ in neutral, or coasting long distances with the engine off.
Something about the engine needs to be "Running" to provide oil pressure to the output shaft from the transmission, or damage will result.
If you are spinning the output-shaft of the non-running engine, you may be causing harm?
Quote from: Firehawk068 on April 26, 2021, 09:10:14 PM
Are you running the bike with the chain connecting the two engines?
No sir. If you watch that last video, you'll see that the runout on both driveshafts are REALLY far out.
Trying to put power into the drivetrain now, before I get to a lathe, would only break stuff.
Quote
I do believe that I read something about NOT towing the FJ in neutral, or coasting long distances with the engine off.
Something about the engine needs to be "Running" to provide oil pressure to the output shaft from the transmission, or damage will result.
If you are spinning the output-shaft of the non-running engine, you may be causing harm?
Yessir. I need to figure that out first before I try to run one in neutral. Like... is the transmission, sitting in an oil bath, enough to keep everything lubed?
Or does it NEED oil pressure feeding certain parts of the trans? All good questions that I don't need the answers to right away, but I'll DEFINITELY need them at some point! :)
Quote from: fj1289 on April 26, 2021, 04:03:46 PM
I got to thinking about shift linkages on this monster last night - extended shift linkages on the drag bike caused me enough headache I did away with it and went to a lever directly on the shift shaft - and the reverse shifting pattern that goes with it
I have some small experience with building the shift linkage. I've got some ideas that I still need to work out... but hell, if ALL else fails, I can definitely build a HAND shift that I can power shift both engines, clutchless. :wacko1:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51133083687_833c65dff6_h.jpg)
Missed this one earlier!
How's the coupler coming along?
Love the plate on that one! Can't imagine trying to commute to work on it or take it for a Sunday ride!
Thread Bump
Juggernaut, how are you? It's been a while since we heard of your two engined madness. I wonder when you will be running the salt flats? It would be good to witness that.
He's posted a couple new videos on you tube.
https://youtu.be/d1pUkE585TM
https://youtu.be/4nbcXqsYUII
Kind of wondering on the progress myself.
Randy - RPM
Thread bump two.
While visiting Alan and his forum famous bar and grill, I reached out via electronic arms to Fran, but alas ......radio silence.
Fran is MIA,
Unless someone knows different.......
Yeah - I'm wondering if he's gone radio silent due to unrelated issues (sure hope not!) or build issues (hope not too!) or if the "new" 750 Suzi has some salt plans for this year(?!), or he's making great progress and is planning to do a final reveal? (hopefully!). (popcorn) :unknown: :drinks:
Sorry, it's not an intended radio silence, just life (and the opposite) tossing a few curves my way.
:dash2:
Ultimately, I have no one to blame but myself, maybe having TOO much time over COVID made me lazy. Right now, I'm still moving ahead with The Juggernaut, but -most likely- will not be running it this August, I just let too many things slide. I'm currently in a mad scramble to build/re-build one of my older Salt Race bikes for August 2021.. and then I still have to decide if I want to run in the 750cc class or the 1350cc. Instead of trying to rush to get the FJ(x2) completed, I'll push it's racing debut out to 2022... but I'd really like to roll it across the Salt this year just around the pits to see how she feels.
Just glad to know you're ok and the project is still going forward! Definitely understand delays along the way - I still need to get moving forward on mine, but that looks to be another month off still.
My two year airplane build has stretched out to about 8 years. I understand project slips! Never give up.
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on July 03, 2021, 08:58:17 PM
Sorry, it's not an intended radio silence, just life (and the opposite) tossing a few curves my way.
:dash2:
Ultimately, I have no one to blame but myself, maybe having TOO much time over COVID made me lazy. Right now, I'm still moving ahead with The Juggernaut, but -most likely- will not be running it this August, I just let too many things slide. I'm currently in a mad scramble to build/re-build one of my older Salt Race bikes for August 2021.. and then I still have to decide if I want to run in the 750cc class or the 1350cc. Instead of trying to rush to get the FJ(x2) completed, I'll push it's racing debut out to 2022... but I'd really like to roll it across the Salt this year just around the pits to see how she feels.
Fran,
Glad to hear you are still plugging away at this.
do you have a checklist of things that need to get done?
I might have some free-time within the next couple of weeks that I could come down and lend a hand, maybe help check some things off the list?
Alan
Hello all!
The current plan is to get back on The Juggernaut project the first week of the new year!
The Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials was a blast! Lots of highs, a few lows, but honestly, it was just great to see all my friends (who I consider my Salt Family) again after missing out on 2020. I've always said that records are secondary for me, it's more about dreaming up a build, then being able to run it up and down the Salt. If I happen to set a record, that just icing on the cake.
Speaking of which, I managed to set the 1350-A-CG record for almost two whole days. Then a better man on a better bike came along and stomped a mudhole into my MPH. If you know Bear from Old Bike Barn, give him a pat on the back, he's got a MONSTER of a Honda CB!
Me & Bear and his bike, about 23 minutes before he took the record from me.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51763288424_7ec577ca4f_b.jpg)
Me & Bear next to my GS1100E a couple days later.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51762881313_9e86ee6990_b.jpg)
So, after figuring out I didn't bring enough bike to compete in the 1350 class, I swapped in the GS750 engine I brought with the intent of running for the 750-A-CG record. I took one pass, ran her up to 116-ish MPH, she was running great! I went to do a back-up run and.... I tossed the master link on my chain! :-O
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51762675526_058e6ed310_z.jpg)
Of course, I have a spare. In fact, I have a bag of 10 spare master links. Except that I left right under my workbench, at home. So that ended my chase for a record for 2021. I have zero regrets. If Doc Brown showed up in his Delorean and offered to take me back to the beginning of the week, but I was not allowed to change anything, I'd do it all over again without hesitation. That's the magic of Bonneville.
Now - onto some FJ-related posting!
:good2:
After running Bonneville, it reminded me of something I already knew. You've GOTTA have spares!
I've been running GS's for so long, I have spares on top of spares. I can build a double engine bike and still have THREE spare engines to take with me. But it got me to thinking... I don't have any spares if anything on The Juggernaut goes south.
And a month or so ago, this "beauty" showed up on FB Marketplace.
Click the pic to watch the video, seriously, it's a fun 5 minute clip.
:biggrin:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51763554115_34e1c70a59_b.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/14ofrIvZ8Ho)
He's back, bolder than ever. Bartering bikes is best. Brilliant.
Quote from: andyoutandabout on December 22, 2021, 08:28:26 PM
He's back, bolder than ever. Bartering bikes is best. Brilliant.
What an awesome array of alliteration!
Glad to be back! :yahoo:
Now, as a total aside to building the Juggernaut, I somehow(?) ended up with a 1977 Yamaha MX80. Fun little ripper, I figured I might use her as a pit bike, but then I got to thinking... how much fun would it be to have the Big FJ2400... but then a Little MX160 as a pit bike? It would give me the chance to see if I could couple the 80cc's together at the crankshaft and "setting the timing" between the two motors would be quite simple in comparison to a four-cylinder, four-stroke.
So I started with this:
(Click pic for video)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51766559027_633ce73bc5_h.jpg)
(https://youtu.be/jWmE6iAqTs8)
Got that little sucker up to 48mph with an Amazon replacement carb!
Then I went to the greatest motorcycle junkyard ever: Ty's Cycle Salvage up in Longmont, CO. While there, I filled a milk crate with the equivalent of 2 MX80 motors and when I got home, I was able to cobble together one good, running motor. So, out came the engine in the mini bike (Hey... I just bought that!) and then I built a jig to hold both motors together. Then I drug an old frame I had built for another project out of the rafters and cobbled all the bits and bobs together.
Here's where I got everything running, separate of each other:
(Click pic for video)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51766563307_27b6c573b0_z.jpg) (https://youtu.be/5Y3lRoqNqxY)
Then my new carb came in! And then my Banshee 2-into-1 throttle cable came in!
And THEN we had some fun!
:wacko1: :wacko2: :wacko1: :wacko2:
Click pic for Video:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51767641803_97d5546885_z.jpg) (https://youtu.be/g-shdZuuJ_A)
:good2: :lol: :good2: :lol:
So, next up is finally chaining these wee beasties together and crossing my fingers that parts don't go flying! Hope to put that video up this Friday!
Fran - good to see you back!
Wanting to see the Juggernaut build return with a vengeance!
Glad to be back!
I picked up a mini-lathe - which is a big deal for me. Now I have no excuses to build the transmission shafts and finally join the two FJ's together correctly! I'm going to hit the ground running once 2022 rolls around!
:bye2:
Speaking of joining two engines together!
One of the reasons I started the whole MX80 Double was so that I had something to practice on with my lathe work.
Here's video showing the fruits of my labors:
(Click pic for video)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51772770371_7e3575718c_c.jpg) (https://youtu.be/TXiMOY54khQ)
Have you discovered "free machining" steel yet? Cuts like butter in a mini lathe! Not we'll suited to welding though. It is my go-to for any bushings or spacers I need to make.
No, but now I know what to fill my Google search with for the rest of the day. LOL!
For the driveshafts I'm building, I'd have to be able to weld it together. But for other things, like you said, spacers & stuff, Free Machining seems like the way to go!
Quote from: freakhousecustoms on December 24, 2021, 02:37:42 PM
No, but now I know what to fill my Google search with for the rest of the day. LOL!
For the driveshafts I'm building, I'd have to be able to weld it together. But for other things, like you said, spacers & stuff, Free Machining seems like the way to go!
Fran....one of the most commonly available "free machining" steels goes by the name of "LEDLOY".
Since it's kinda commonly available, price is ok. As Chris said, the composition of LEDLOY is not conducive to welding. I'm not sure if it'll accept heat treating or case-hardening.....but kinda doubt it.
But it is easy to work with. You can run hi-speed cutting operations without burning or overly dulling the cutting tool.
It's also forgiving of the cutting tool geometry/grinding. It's a nice alloy steel to have on hand if you have a lathe.
Good luck....
FjLee Denver,CO
Weldable and easy to machine well, 12L14, look it up.
What ever happened to Fran?
Pat,
Alan (Firehawk) and I reached out to Fran when I was visiting Colorado. He didn't get back to us.
He remains a mystery
Andy
Quote from: andyoutandabout on April 08, 2023, 12:56:41 AM
Pat,
Alan (Firehawk) and I reached out to Fran when I was visiting Colorado. He didn't get back to us.
He remains a mystery
Andy
He's on YouTube doing double engine bikes etc but nothing with an FJ lately.
https://youtube.com/@FreakhouseCustoms
Thanks guys, good to see he's ok...