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General Category => Yamaha FJ1100 / FJ1200 Running Problems => Topic started by: aviationfred on December 28, 2020, 12:34:10 AM

Title: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 28, 2020, 12:34:10 AM
Well, my 95 left me stranded today. The starter clutch has been acting up over the last 6 months or so. Running an errand today, it failed to engage. :mad: :cray: The bike is at the garage and I will begin to pull the engine out.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: mike g on December 28, 2020, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on December 28, 2020, 12:34:10 AM
Well, my 95 left me stranded today. The starter clutch has been acting up over the last 6 months or so. Running an errand today, it failed to engage. :mad: :cray: The bike is at the garage and I will begin to pull the engine out.


Fred
what forks swing arm and wheels are you using?
shame about the starter clutch btw
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 28, 2020, 03:23:36 AM
Quote from: mike g on December 28, 2020, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on December 28, 2020, 12:34:10 AM
Well, my 95 left me stranded today. The starter clutch has been acting up over the last 6 months or so. Running an errand today, it failed to engage. :mad: :cray: The bike is at the garage and I will begin to pull the engine out.


Fred
what forks swing arm and wheels are you using?
shame about the starter clutch btw

Forks, front wheel, and calipers are from a 2008 Suzuki GSX-R1000. The swingarm is from a 2003 Yamaha FZ1/Fazer 1000. The rear wheel and caliper are from a 1998 Suzuki GSX-R1100


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: T Legg on December 28, 2020, 09:41:04 PM
Fred could it be your 95 is acting up because of all the attention you have spent on Casper?
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 29, 2020, 07:41:39 AM
Quote from: T Legg on December 28, 2020, 09:41:04 PM
Fred could it be your 95 is acting up because of all the attention you have spent on Casper?


:sarcastic: :rofl: :pardon: We got it over to the garage and on the lift. Turned on the ignition and it fired up the first time as if there was no problem.  :pardon:

I am still going to pull the engine and make repairs. I was fortunate that the failure to start was in town instead of being 100 miles out in the country.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: fj1289 on December 29, 2020, 09:46:47 AM
Figures!

Any upgrades while you are in there?!
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 29, 2020, 10:33:26 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on December 29, 2020, 09:46:47 AM
Figures!

Any upgrades while you are in there?!

As much as I would love to, I can not at this time.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: fj1289 on December 29, 2020, 01:30:25 PM
Yeah, that slippery slope can become a cliff real quick!
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 29, 2020, 08:46:28 PM
I got the engine out and parts ordered.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 29, 2020, 08:53:26 PM
I posted about this a few years ago. If you have to remove the oil pan for maintenance. Pull the Oil Pick up screen off and clean it. I am sure the oil pan has never been removed on this bike.

I have seen photos of the screen being so clogged with junk, that the suction from the oil pump actually pulls the screen away from the edges.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: T Legg on December 29, 2020, 10:13:14 PM
When I split my cases last October the gasket was stuck completely all the way around the pan. I'm guessing they must of used some kind of adhesive on it. I literally spent ten hours scraping the gasket off with a razor blade . I tried solvents and some kind of foaming gasket remover from permatex but nothing had any affect on it. Only manual scraping would do it. Removing the old gasket was by far the most difficult part of fixing my transmission.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: RPM - Robert on December 29, 2020, 10:40:21 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on December 29, 2020, 08:53:26 PM
I posted about this a few years ago. If you have to remove the oil pan for maintenance. Pull the Oil Pick up screen off and clean it. I am sure the oil pan has never been removed on this bike.

I have seen photos of the screen being so clogged with junk, that the suction from the oil pump actually pulls the screen away from the edges.


Fred

The complete starter clutch rebuild kit comes with a new screen, Fred. Just an FYI
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Alf on December 30, 2020, 02:26:28 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on December 29, 2020, 08:53:26 PM

I have seen photos of the screen being so clogged with junk, that the suction from the oil pump actually pulls the screen away from the edges.

Fred

Mine was broken
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJ1200W on December 30, 2020, 10:21:35 AM
Sorry you have to go through this, but thrilled you're sharing the work.

I'm starting to think I should have changed or upgraded when I had the chance -

Any idea what caused the failure?
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJmonkey on December 30, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
Was the engine cold when the starter clutch failed?
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on December 31, 2020, 12:24:30 PM
Quote from: FJmonkey on December 30, 2020, 12:50:00 PM
Was the engine cold when the starter clutch failed?

I wouldn't say it was 'cold'. The engine was at normal operating temps when I stopped to pick up some groceries. Maybe 30 minutes in the store. :pardon:

I would say the engine was cold when we got it on the lift and the starter clutch engaged on the 2nd attempt to start.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJmonkey on December 31, 2020, 04:58:12 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on December 31, 2020, 12:24:30 PM
I wouldn't say it was 'cold'. The engine was at normal operating temps when I stopped to pick up some groceries. Maybe 30 minutes in the store. :pardon:

I would say the engine was cold when we got it on the lift and the starter clutch engaged on the 2nd attempt to start.


Fred
My 89 has starter clutch issues with cold and thicker oil. Just asking...
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 02, 2021, 05:19:44 PM
Today I got the cases split. One thing the Haynes manual does not tell you is, you have to remove the oil pump to have access to a lower case bolt. Something i also noticed is the the rollers in the rebuild kit are about 1/8 of an inch shorter in length versus the Old OEM rollers. Before anyone asks, I am NOT replacing the starter chain. This engine is very quiet running without the common starter chain rattle.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 02, 2021, 05:32:27 PM
Starter clutch breakdown photos.

The first photo shows the new rollers, pins and springs on the right.

The last 2 photos shows the OEM roller (upper photo) and the Rebuild kit roller (lower photo).

Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 02, 2021, 10:58:39 PM
That does not look right...Why the difference in lengths?
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that you have the last year 1995 model uses the long rollers and 1993 was the last year for imports into the US and they used short rollers?
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 02, 2021, 11:29:23 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 02, 2021, 10:58:39 PM
That does not look right...Why the difference in lengths?
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that you have the last year 1995 model uses the long rollers and 1993 was the last year for imports into the US and they used short rollers?

I dont know. The Yamaha part number for the roller is the same from 1984 to 1993 according to Partzilla. I also looked up the part on the Motorcyclespareparts.eu website in Europe. Their listing for the FJ stops at the 93 model also. Same part number as Partzilla. To the best of my knowledge the US spec 93 FJ and the UK/European/Australian spec 95 FJ are the same with the exception a few minor wiring differences.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: RPM - Robert on January 03, 2021, 05:29:52 PM
Fred. I sent those on accident. Those are for a different bike. The rebuilt kit is just the springs and the "cups" use your stock rollers. They don't go bad.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 03, 2021, 07:40:17 PM
Quote from: RPM - Robert on January 03, 2021, 05:29:52 PM
Fred. I sent those on accident. Those are for a different bike. The rebuilt kit is just the springs and the "cups" use your stock rollers. They don't go bad.


Thank you..... the starter clutch is back together and ready to install.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 03, 2021, 07:42:25 PM
Today, the plan was to put the repaired starter clutch assembly in and close the engine. I decided to check the condition of the starter chain guide.... Definitely not looking good. :shok: :negative: :nea: Not a simple removal. I did have to remove the intake camshaft to get slack on the cam chain. Rotated the crankshaft to center all of the pistons. Pulled the crankshaft out about 1/8th of an inch and removed the guide. A new one is on order.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 04, 2021, 07:22:04 PM
Having spoken to a few people, I have decided to do a complete refresh. New bearings, rings, chains and sliders.




Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Millietant on January 04, 2021, 07:54:40 PM
And...........a big bore kit......you've got plenty of time, it's winter !!  :sarcastic:
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: fj1289 on January 04, 2021, 08:38:24 PM
I see a cliff ahead ... !





And I'm right there with you - my simple "pull down the race engine for bearings, rings, and a valve job" has turned into a much bigger project too.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 04, 2021, 08:57:46 PM
Quote from: Millietant on January 04, 2021, 07:54:40 PM
And...........a big bore kit......you've got plenty of time, it's winter !!  :sarcastic:


You are correct, there is plenty of time. Unfortunately there is not plenty of funds. I would love to do another 1297cc engine, but this will stay at 1188cc for awhile longer.

On a high note, when I do put in go fast pistons, I will know that the lower part of the engine is fresh.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 04, 2021, 11:04:34 PM
Fred, I think you are making the right call. I am surprised at the condition of the starter chain guide.
Good time to look at the starter chain oil jet .
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0)
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 04, 2021, 11:09:44 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on January 04, 2021, 11:04:34 PM
Fred, I think you are making the right call. I am surprised at the condition of the starter chain guide.
Good time to look at the starter chain oil jet .
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0)

The upgraded version has already been ordered


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 06, 2021, 05:20:10 PM
The rear cam chain tension guide has alot of wear.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: racerrad8 on January 06, 2021, 05:32:21 PM
What does the tip of the tensioner look like?

That's usually a sign the tip is hardened or missing and there is no cushion.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 06, 2021, 06:26:12 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 06, 2021, 05:32:21 PM
What does the tip of the tensioner look like?

That's usually a sign the tip is hardened or missing and there is no cushion.

Randy - RPM

The 1st photo is the top end of the straight forward guide.
2nd photo is the top end of the curved rear guide.

Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 10, 2021, 06:42:11 PM
The new parts were delivered yesterday. Installation of the new crankshaft and rod bearings went smoothly. Having read about the colored bearings, i always wondered what they looked like. You can see the different bearing colors. The rebuilt starter clutch dropped in with ease. The cases went together without any drama. Cross your fingers that we have no oil leaks. I highlighted 2 photos with arrows. The 1st is the location of the starter clutch oil nozzle. If you have a noisy starter chain... try installing the upgraded nozzle. This can be done by removing the alternator with the engine in the frame. The 2nd photo with an arrow shows the case bolt that is hidden by the oil pump. The oil pump has to be removed for access to the bolt.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 07:16:23 PM
Fred, what about that tensioner?

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 10, 2021, 08:38:19 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 07:16:23 PM
Fred, what about that tensioner?

Randy - RPM

The starter clutch tensioner went in without a hitch.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 10:58:44 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 06, 2021, 05:32:21 PM
What does the tip of the tensioner look like?

That's usually a sign the tip is hardened or missing and there is no cushion.

Randy - RPM

The timing chain tensioner based on the cam guide wear.

The rubber tip of the timing chain tensioner :Facepalm:

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: mike g on January 11, 2021, 07:53:14 AM
interesting pictures, what mileage had the motor done?
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 11, 2021, 12:33:39 PM
Quote from: mike g on January 11, 2021, 07:53:14 AM
interesting pictures, what mileage had the motor done?

62,000, The first 31,000 was done over 22 years. The second 31,000 was done in 3 years.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: mike g on January 12, 2021, 03:51:52 AM
wont start worrying yet, mines only done 18000, of which i've done only 7k since got it in 2006! (it's just for taking the mrs out). I had a new one in 88, which did about 50k on, with only an alternator failure, sold it after about 10 yrs, as I wasn't using it much after getting a fireblade around 96.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 12, 2021, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 10, 2021, 10:58:44 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 06, 2021, 05:32:21 PM
What does the tip of the tensioner look like?

That's usually a sign the tip is hardened or missing and there is no cushion.

Randy - RPM

The timing chain tensioner based on the cam guide wear.

The rubber tip of the timing chain tensioner :Facepalm:

Randy - RPM


On the old cam chain guides, the round nub at the bottom of the aft guide was good and the little round nubs on the upper end of the forward guide were there.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: RPM - Robert on January 12, 2021, 01:50:26 PM
This is a timing chain tensioner.......

Is the tip hardened or still pliable?
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 12, 2021, 10:22:06 PM
Quote from: RPM - Robert on January 12, 2021, 01:50:26 PM
This is a timing chain tensioner.......

Is the tip hardened or still pliable?

It wasn't until I was putting the top end together today that I realized what part was being referenced. The rubber tip is shot and almost non existent. I have another one that is nearly new... I just have to find it.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 12, 2021, 10:30:54 PM
Progress for the day. Gapped and installed the new rings on the pistons, installation of the cylinder block, the head and clutch basket. Torqued the head and called it a day. Cleaning and painting tomorrow.

Plans are Blacked out engine and bare aluminum Head.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: RPM - Robert on January 13, 2021, 10:16:56 AM
A couple things for your next removal/install of the tensioner.

Make sure to remove the center bolt BEFORE you remove the tensioner. If you remove it you can see just how far it is extended and sort of gauge timing chain wear. If you do not remove it, the tensioner fully extends and you can gauge nothing.

When installing, make sure to remove the center bolt and retract the tensioner all the way. If you do not do this the tensioner will be all the way out and will have too much chain tension. Wearing everything out way faster than need be. Once the tensioner is installed the proper side up. Then install the springs and center bolt.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 13, 2021, 11:06:53 PM
Robert,
Thank you for reminding about the cam chain tensioner.


Today's work. Carb cleaner and some brush work to care of any loose paint and old road grime.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 14, 2021, 09:07:03 PM
I have decided that the is too much black.....



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 15, 2021, 03:44:25 PM
Yep, some break up of the black looks good!  :good:

Also do your the edges on lower cooling fins.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Timing is set and valve clearances are good.

Here is a handy tool. Nobody in the Mouse and Toad Garage could remember ever using it. Definitely came in handy for doing the torque on the cam sprocket bolts.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Flynt on January 17, 2021, 05:33:40 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Here is a handy tool. Nobody in the Mouse and Toad Garage could remember ever using it. Definitely came in handy for doing the torque on the cam sprocket bolts.

How do you compensate for the wrench length when setting the torque wrench?  I've seen fixed length versions, but never a slide/variable length version.  Do they have a conversion table or something?

Frank
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:41:42 PM
Quote from: Flynt on January 17, 2021, 05:33:40 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Here is a handy tool. Nobody in the Mouse and Toad Garage could remember ever using it. Definitely came in handy for doing the torque on the cam sprocket bolts.

How do you compensate for the wrench length when setting the torque wrench?  I've seen fixed length versions, but never a slide/variable length version.  Do they have a conversion table or something?

Frank

As long as the added wrench is 90° too the torque wrench, no conversion is necessary.

https://www.motionpro.com/a/adjustable-torque-wrench-adapter-08-0380/ (https://www.motionpro.com/a/adjustable-torque-wrench-adapter-08-0380/)



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJ1200W on January 18, 2021, 06:38:24 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:41:42 PM
Quote from: Flynt on January 17, 2021, 05:33:40 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Here is a handy tool. Nobody in the Mouse and Toad Garage could remember ever using it. Definitely came in handy for doing the torque on the cam sprocket bolts.

How do you compensate for the wrench length when setting the torque wrench?  I've seen fixed length versions, but never a slide/variable length version.  Do they have a conversion table or something?

Frank

As long as the added wrench is 90° too the torque wrench, no conversion is necessary.

https://www.motionpro.com/a/adjustable-torque-wrench-adapter-08-0380/ (https://www.motionpro.com/a/adjustable-torque-wrench-adapter-08-0380/)



Fred

I've got to add one of those to the list!

Motion Pro is always coming out with cool stuff.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Flynt on January 19, 2021, 09:39:13 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:41:42 PM
Quote from: Flynt on January 17, 2021, 05:33:40 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 17, 2021, 05:15:23 PM
Here is a handy tool. Nobody in the Mouse and Toad Garage could remember ever using it. Definitely came in handy for doing the torque on the cam sprocket bolts.

How do you compensate for the wrench length when setting the torque wrench?  I've seen fixed length versions, but never a slide/variable length version.  Do they have a conversion table or something?

Frank

As long as the added wrench is 90° too the torque wrench, no conversion is necessary.

https://www.motionpro.com/a/adjustable-torque-wrench-adapter-08-0380/ (https://www.motionpro.com/a/adjustable-torque-wrench-adapter-08-0380/)



Fred

Boy that's counter intuitive...  I'd think it would be more like your torque arm becomes the length of the Hypotenuse of the triangle you made with the extension...  For example, if your wrench is 4ft, your extension is 3ft, your new effective torque arm would be 5ft (3,4,5 right triangle).  It would be a good approximation to say the extension is effectively zero as long as it's much shorter than the torque wrench, but imagine you have a 10 foot extension and a 1 foot torque wrench...  I don't believe you could ignore the extension in that case.

Anyway...  cool tool agreed and I'm going to get one.

Frank
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Motofun on January 19, 2021, 12:33:39 PM


[/quote]

Boy that's counter intuitive...  I'd think it would be more like your torque arm becomes the length of the Hypotenuse of the triangle you made with the extension...  For example, if your wrench is 4ft, your extension is 3ft, your new effective torque arm would be 5ft (3,4,5 right triangle).  It would be a good approximation to say the extension is effectively zero as long as it's much shorter than the torque wrench, but imagine you have a 10 foot extension and a 1 foot torque wrench...  I don't believe you could ignore the extension in that case.

Anyway...  cool tool agreed and I'm going to get one.

Frank
[/quote]
Draw a force diagram showing the applied torques. 
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Waiex191 on January 19, 2021, 01:07:30 PM
For the hypotenuse to be the lever arm, the applied force would need to be perpendicular to the hypotenuse.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 19, 2021, 03:23:35 PM
A little help please...... I don't know if I am having a case of the Dumbass or what. For the life of me, I can't remember what gets mounted too these holes.

This is on a 91 and later engine. The holes are just aft of the oil pan. They have a machined surface and the threads are clean.



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: jono on January 19, 2021, 03:37:34 PM
on my 91 3xw the standard 4 into 2 collector mounting bracket bolts to those 2 threaded holes
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Flynt on January 19, 2021, 03:49:23 PM
 (popcorn)
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Flynt on January 19, 2021, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Motofun on January 19, 2021, 12:33:39 PM
Draw a force diagram showing the applied torques. 

Maybe you can do that, but I contend you will not put discrete perpendicular force as modeled by such a diagram...  I do agree that is the extension is shorter than about 1/4 of the torque wrench length, the difference will be negligible.  Imagine a 1 foot torque wrench and a 10 foot extension however, and the diagram will not reflect how you actually turn the bolt...

Frank
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 19, 2021, 06:48:32 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 19, 2021, 03:23:35 PM
A little help please...... I don't know if I am having a case of the Dumbass or what. For the life of me, I can't remember what gets mounted too these holes.

This is on a 91 and later engine. The holes are just aft of the oil pan. They have a machined surface and the threads are clean.



Fred


I figured out what goes there. :Facepalm: Those are the bolt holes for the OEM collector box mount bracket that I dont need.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: fj1289 on January 20, 2021, 12:09:37 AM
Quote from: Flynt on January 19, 2021, 03:53:57 PM
Quote from: Motofun on January 19, 2021, 12:33:39 PM
Draw a force diagram showing the applied torques. 

Maybe you can do that, but I contend you will not put discrete perpendicular force as modeled by such a diagram...  I do agree that is the extension is shorter than about 1/4 of the torque wrench length, the difference will be negligible.  Imagine a 1 foot torque wrench and a 10 foot extension however, and the diagram will not reflect how you actually turn the bolt...

Frank

Frank - if you have one of the older style torque wrenches that had the "pivoted" handle for lack of a better term, it would be much easier to keep a true perpendicular pull on the torque wrench without adding a lateral component.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails? The Haynes manual does not list specific torque figures. This is for the 1991 and later rubber engine mounts and the single upper rear engine mount.


Thanks

Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: ribbert on January 20, 2021, 03:52:15 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails? The Haynes manual does not list specific torque figures. This is for the 1991 and later rubber engine mounts and the single upper rear engine mount.


Thanks

Fred

Fred, a bloke with your experience shouldn't need to torque any of those bolts.
However, in the absence of actual values, I  believe there is a general guide to torque settings by bolt size in the front of the manual.

Noel
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJ1200W on January 20, 2021, 07:32:26 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails? The Haynes manual does not list specific torque figures. This is for the 1991 and later rubber engine mounts and the single upper rear engine mount.


Thanks

Fred

I have the factory manual in pdf if you want a copy let me know
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJ1200W on January 20, 2021, 07:37:34 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails? The Haynes manual does not list specific torque figures. This is for the 1991 and later rubber engine mounts and the single upper rear engine mount.


Thanks

Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 21, 2021, 06:54:17 PM
The lower frames rails and engine mounts torqued. Slowly getting the rest together. Closed up the engine and filled with 4 Liters of break-in oil.

The engine passed it's first test. Using the starter, I spun the engine long enough to prime the head with oil. Every stab of the start button gave an immediate engine engagement. No abnormal sounds and strong puffs of air out of the spark plug holes.  :yahoo: :dance2: :dance:

This may be road ready by the end of the Weekend.

Playing with my camera filters. I did a few in Black and White.

Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on January 21, 2021, 07:39:39 PM
Back to the torque wrench adaptor.  The torque along the wrench is constant over the length of the adaptor wrench. 

If you were to push or pull along the axis of the torque wrench, then the length of the adaptor wrench would matter.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Millietant on January 21, 2021, 09:59:58 PM
I think I've got this.......... looking at the way the force is applied to the torque wrench handle, with the extension in place, the rotational force applied to the end of the wrench is not perpendicular to the line directly from the nut - and its perpendicular component is therefore less than if the force was applied to the end to the torque wrench when it's attached directly to the nut/bolt. That lower perpendicular component is however, applied slightly further away from the nut/bolt.

That reduction in perpendicular force is proportional to increase in distance of the application of the force, from the nut/bolt - so the torque (force x distance) applied by either method is the same (it will just take less effort at the handle to achieve the same twisting force at the nut, with the extension being used).

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/6213_21_01_21_9_54_50.jpeg)
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: T Legg on January 22, 2021, 04:38:54 AM
Quote from: Millietant on January 21, 2021, 09:59:58 PM
I think I've got this.......... looking at the way the force is applied to the torque wrench handle, with the extension in place, the rotational force applied to the end of the wrench is not perpendicular to the line directly from the nut - and its perpendicular component is therefore less than if the force was applied to the end to the torque wrench when it's attached directly to the nut/bolt. That lower perpendicular component is however, applied slightly further away from the nut/bolt.

That reduction in perpendicular force is proportional to increase in distance of the application of the force, from the nut/bolt - so the torque (force x distance) applied by either method is the same (it will just take less effort at the handle to achieve the same twisting force at the nut, with the extension being used).

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/6213_21_01_21_9_54_50.jpeg)

               I think your right.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Cat Cracker on January 22, 2021, 11:45:56 AM
ADDING AN ADAPTER TO A TORQUE WRENCH


(TA x L) / (L + A)  = TW

Length (L) = length of the wrench
Dial Wrenches = The measured distance from the center of the square drive to the center ring or notch on the handle.
Micrometer Wrenches = The measured length from the center of the square drive to the center of the handle, with the wrench set at the desired torque reading.
Desired Torque (TA) = The torque value designated for the fastener with or without an adapter.
Added Length of Adapter (A) = The measured length from the center of the adapter drive to the center of the wrench square drive.
New Setting (TW) = The torque setting on the wrench allowing for the added length of the adapter. This reading will be lower than the desired torque.


Example:
250 ft. lb. Dial Wrench using a 2" long adapter

L = Effective Length: 18.75"
Desired Torque = 250 ft. lb.
Length of Adapter = 2"
Result:
18.75" x 250 ft. lb.
18.75" + 2"
= Pull Wrench to 226 ft. lb.


Or plug in the variables here
https://www.mountztorque.com/calculations-for-torque-wrench-extension-adapters-and-spanners (https://www.mountztorque.com/calculations-for-torque-wrench-extension-adapters-and-spanners)
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: FJ1200W on January 22, 2021, 09:00:07 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 21, 2021, 06:54:17 PM
The lower frames rails and engine mounts torqued. Slowly getting the rest together. Closed up the engine and filled with 4 Liters of break-in oil.

The engine passed it's first test. Using the starter, I spun the engine long enough to prime the head with oil. Every stab of the start button gave an immediate engine engagement. No abnormal sounds and strong puffs of air out of the spark plug holes.  :yahoo: :dance2: :dance:

This may be road ready by the end of the Weekend.

Fred

Well done - biting my nails waiting to hear how it's going
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 22, 2021, 09:30:42 PM
Finished prepping the bike, carbs and exhaust. Installed the new RPM logo UNI filters. I don't know how long ago UNI changed from Red foam to Black foam. The UNI filters that I removed were the Red ones and the outer layer was beginning to breakdown. Primed the carbs and the old FJ fired right off.




Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: racerrad8 on January 22, 2021, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails?
Fred

GAT or RFT...

Randy - RPM

Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 22, 2021, 10:33:15 PM
Video of the Refreshed engine starting.


https://youtu.be/pG0Z5oLcOEo



Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 22, 2021, 10:35:13 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 22, 2021, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails?
Fred

GAT or RFT...

Randy - RPM



What is GAT or RFT??
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 23, 2021, 01:28:02 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 22, 2021, 10:35:13 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 22, 2021, 09:51:29 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 20, 2021, 12:17:15 PM
Does anyone have a GYSM that shows the torque for all of the engine mount bolts and the lower frame rails?
Fred

GAT or RFT...

Randy - RPM



What is GAT or RFT??

Good And Tight....or.......Real Fucking Tight
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: Bill_Rockoff on January 23, 2021, 02:02:29 PM
Pat beat me to it by half an hour....

I've also seen "grey-tight" and "black-tight" (you tighten it until your vision greys out, or goes completely black.)

I've also seen someone tighten something to 88 ft-lbs by grunting "eighty-EIGHT."
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 23, 2021, 09:30:53 PM
First ride with the rebuilt engine. Got almost 12 miles.... Stopped at the Kansas Masonic Home for a photo op. I have to do an engine Break-in as if it was a brand new engine. Keeping the RPM's below 5000 is mentally difficult. I want to hear it sing.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: racerrad8 on January 24, 2021, 01:05:17 AM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 23, 2021, 09:30:53 PM
I have to do an engine Break-in as if it was a brand new engine.

Fred

Ummmm, why?

You installed new pistons rings and bearings. The bearing require zero break in and the rings will seat under normal riding.

I would not be running redline, but normal riding is what you need to do.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: giantkiller on January 24, 2021, 12:11:00 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on January 23, 2021, 09:30:53 PM
First ride with the rebuilt engine. Got almost 12 miles.... Stopped at the Kansas Masonic Home for a photo op. I have to do an engine Break-in as if it was a brand new engine. Keeping the RPM's below 5000 is mentally difficult. I want to hear it sing.


Fred
Nice house you got there Fred.  Lol.
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: ribbert on January 25, 2021, 08:16:08 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 24, 2021, 01:05:17 AM

.....You installed new pistons rings and bearings......

Randy - RPM

Fred, did you put new pistons in as well?

Noel
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: aviationfred on January 25, 2021, 08:23:21 AM
Quote from: ribbert on January 25, 2021, 08:16:08 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on January 24, 2021, 01:05:17 AM

.....You installed new pistons rings and bearings......

Randy - RPM

Fred, did you put new pistons in as well?

Noel

No, the original pistons were used with new rings installed.


Fred
Title: Re: Starter Clutch Failure
Post by: ribbert on January 25, 2021, 08:35:40 AM


:good: