Well, I have a new owner of the FJ that the General had for his 2018 USA adventure. I got the bike all sorted and running. I noticed the bike ran poorly which was strange because Cap'n Ron delivered after the WCR rally and was telling me he was impressed by how well it ran and pulled.
So, I dropped the bowls to check the pilot jets to find the carb bowls were full of rust. I looked at the rear of the carb throats and was shocked to see the rust colored mess coming from the fuel outlet orifices. Those carbs were built less than a 1000 miles ago and were spotless. Everything looks good from the air filter side and even inside the bowls don't look bad.
Needless to say, a quick look in the tank and all looked pretty good. I could see some tank liner that appeared to be "thick" but nothing obviously rusty other than the gas cap ring.
I drained the tank and pulled the float, petcock & cap and let it dry out overnight. I come in this morning and the sealer is now pulled away from the tank floor. I was able to reach in with my small parts grabber and start pulling out these chucks of sealer from the floor of the tank.
I am not surprised, another bad Kreem job. The coating is almost an 1/8" thick and the surface wasn't properly prepared to prevent future rust under the coating. I can also see now, the side cavities are completely full of the coating and I am concerned about what is under there.
Oh well, time to start stripping and then see what there is to work with. If anyone has any thoughts of applying a coating to their tank, please research other products other than Kreem. I used POR15 on the last tank I did for FJScott after the Kreem failed on the used bike he purchased. I am looking at the KBS Coating system this time.
One thing I do know, when I did the tank for FJScott it took me close to a week to do the job. From the stripping to make sure it was fully stripped, to the surface preparations and then finally the coating of the inside of the tank. It was a ton of work, I am not not looking forward to doing again but it is what it is.
Randy - RPM
Randy, are you going to do the electrolysis method of rust removal?
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 21, 2019, 02:28:10 PM
Randy, are you going to do the electrolysis method of rust removal?
No, the paint will be ruined. Since this bike is a custom painted green, I can't take the chance of damaging the paint. Just like the tank for FJScott, I am going to strip the Kreem out, prep the inside and then seal it properly.
The KBS cycle tank kit looks like the ticket to try this time: https://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-plus-kit.html (https://www.kbs-coatings.com/cycle-tank-sealer-plus-kit.html)
Randy - RPM
i can consider myself lucky, as the tank innards in mine are pristine, and it obvious the owner is a "money is no object" kind of FJ Lover, i like my FJ less,and if i had to deal with that type of neglect, I would call it quits.
and besides, he could have sourced a better tank , if he went through the hassle of custom painting it.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 21, 2019, 02:28:10 PM
Randy, are you going to do the electrolysis method of rust removal?
So, you got me thinking and then I remembered this thread: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17783.msg179424#msg179424 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17783.msg179424#msg179424)
I think I'll give this a try. Not sure if it will remove the Kreem from inside, but if over rust like the pieces that came out of the tank, then it should remove the poor coating job.
Experimentation will be commencing shortly.
Randy - RPM
I just used Evapo-Rust on my 87 tank....that has been babied since I bought it new. Used 4 gallons in the tank for 5 days. Mint. Absolutely mint.
otoh rescue is always commendable, they don't make 'em no more
Quote from: JMR on July 21, 2019, 08:08:56 PM
I just used Evapo-Rust on my 87 tank....that has been babied since I bought it new. Used 4 gallons in the tank for 5 days. Mint. Absolutely mint.
Rust is why you should always leave your tank full. I was taught that in school and my father's advice was, "it costs no more to run on the top half of your tank than the bottom half." Even though I know this to be true, and have passed this pearl on to my children, I have ignored it most of my life, in cars anyway. The Prado (with standard tank) costs $300 to fill, I can't bring myself to do it, even though I know if I filled it when it got to half it would be the same thing. Maybe one day if I win the lottery I'll fill it up and try keeping it in the top half.
Trivia Alert:
beep... beep... beep... beep......My second car was a V8 Monaro, I couldn't believe I could squeeze a whole $5 worth of petrol into it in one fill, even if I drove it until it was running on fumes. (this may not be surprising at US prices) My previous car when run dry would never take much over $4 worth.
I always fill the FJ when I get home after a trip so it's parked up with a full tank, for just this reason.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on July 22, 2019, 05:17:56 AM
Quote from: JMR on July 21, 2019, 08:08:56 PM
I just used Evapo-Rust on my 87 tank....that has been babied since I bought it new. Used 4 gallons in the tank for 5 days. Mint. Absolutely mint.
Rust is why you should always leave your tank full. I was taught that in school and my father's advice was, "it costs no more to run on the top half of your tank than the bottom half." Even though I know this to be true, and have passed this pearl on to my children, I have ignored it most of my life, in cars anyway. The Prado (with standard tank) costs $300 to fill, I can't bring myself to do it, even though I know if I filled it when it got to half it would be the same thing. Maybe one day if I win the lottery I'll fill it up and try keeping it in the top half.
Trivia Alert: beep... beep... beep... beep......
My second car was a V8 Monaro, I couldn't believe I could squeeze a whole $5 worth of petrol into it in one fill, even if I drove it until it was running on fumes. (this may not be surprising at US prices) My previous car when run dry would never take much over $4 worth.
I always fill the FJ when I get home after a trip so it's parked up with a full tank, for just this reason.
Noel
I live by the "full tank" school of thought too. It is even more important in the climate I live in where it can be below zero F to 100+ degrees. I pull the tank off the bike and put it in the heated cellar in the winter. No matter what you do some rust forms after 30+ years especially since the introduction of ethanol (which attracts water) in fuel.
I am so particular I use VP small engine fuel in my FJ (actually all my bikes). It has no ethanol and is 94 octane. It isn't cheap but I can let the bike sit for 6 weeks .....or over the winter.....and it starts up like it was run the day before.
All of these internal tank rust issues would be eliminated if everyone followed the user instructions in the owners manual...
Randy - RPM
I have always subscribed to Noels suggestion to always leave the bike sit with the tank full. The fuel creates a barrier from the atmosphere to the metal surfaces inside the tank.
I have been doing this since 1981 and have yet to have a rust issue on any of my motorcycles
Leon
I used Bill Hirsch tank sealer 3 years ago very satisfied no flake off or particles in the carbs and it can tolearate ethanol.
RED KOTE the only real tank sealer I will not use anything else...
https://www.dimecitycycles.com/red-kote-fuel-tank-sealer-liner.html (https://www.dimecitycycles.com/red-kote-fuel-tank-sealer-liner.html)
The science experiment has begun. Plugged in a 1 amp cell phone charger and bubbles appeared immediately.
In just 15 minutes, already have scale on the anode rod.
Going to let it run for a couple if days and see if the old sealer is coming off or if I have to use the stripper.
Chiz, we got a set of carbs in today and the bowls were full of red. The owner said he hopes that is just from the red kite liner, not rust. But looking at them as we dug in further, I'm leaning to rust.
Randy - RPM
Put a 10 amp battery charger on it...send some serious current thru there.
Go ahead, in the name of science, I dare ya....
You know you want to....
Randy, what fluid are you using? Distilled water?
Joe
Tap water and sodium carbonate
Nope, had a old cell phone charger that wasn't good for anything else.
Plus, trying to go slow and not damage the paint.
Randy -RPM
I have read many good things about both POR15 and the KBS system, don't think you can go wrong with either. Kreem on the other hand...... But whatever is used, if the prep isn't done correctly, it will all come back to bite.
I'm with Noel, full tank of fuel when parked up, as my bikes don't get out as often as they should. :( but I also add around 30-40 mls of Seafoam and run it through before switching off as well. Following your progress Randy, :good2:
Quote from: Tuned forks on July 22, 2019, 09:51:27 PM
Randy, what fluid are you using? Distilled water?
Joe
Distilled water is practically an insulator so you would have no current for the electrolysis. You need ions in solution (i.e. some salt that will melt in water).
I'm with Noel and Ivan.
I try and stop at the servo to fill up after every run.
If I'm commuting, I generally forget about it till I need fuel.
Ivan is spot on, without a mild electrolye the galvanic reaction is significantly reduced.
If we go 10amps, is there a way to run a high speed camera, so when it goes we can see in slow-mo the sexy bits?
How about we rig a pizo ignitor on a servo, linked to a web cam & we can bet on the time it takes, then hit the trigger at our posted time to see if it goes off?
I am going to follow up Randy's experiment on a couple of messed up tanks I have spare.
One is old and needs a good clean and coat. I'll do that with the electroplating method.
The other has a new KBS coat and I'll do some experiments to try and ruin the coat. Lets see what we can do with them. Then I'll experiment on different ways to remove the coat.
Regarding the KBS, I've used both POR15 and KBS. Both have proven to me to be durable.
Preparation and deep rust/crud removal are the key. The metal needs to be uniform in a number of ways.
Primarily it needs to have a uniform metallic surface for the electroplating to bond to, or if painted, a compatible uniform texture for the paint to bond to.
These, depending on the damage, might be different, i.e. the inside of the tank might have rust hole repairs or other changes which could change the electrical potential of the surface and cause areas which are only superficially coated. Or for painting, they might promote an outgassing between the dissimilar surfaces which grows a small (sometimes large) blister under the coating.
The lowest points in the tank pick-up with the most crud and it can be deep. Randy mentioned the 'thick' near the bottom and I can only assume that the tank was left sitting like that by mistake during coating, or more ominously, there are either holes being blocked by the paint, or holes filled by the paint.
If it is the latter, if the paint on the outside is high quality then it might be ok. If the paint is low quality I give it another few years.
In the spirit of back yard experiments I will ensure that guns, petrol, working motorcycles and alcohol are accessible at all times :sarcastic:
Quote from: Troyskie on July 23, 2019, 05:50:58 AM
In the spirit of back yard experiments I will ensure that guns, petrol, working motorcycles and alcohol are accessible at all times :sarcastic:
If they are the essentials of a backyard experiment at your place, I've been to one.
Noel
Quote from: Troyskie on July 23, 2019, 05:50:58 AM
I'm with Noel and Ivan.
I try and stop at the servo to fill up after every run.
It would appear this is a fairly common practice. We all know that if everything is in good order, the fuel tank won't empty into the crankcase and all over the floor. We also know that FJ's don't always play by the rules in this regard. I'm sure the majority have suffered such an event at least once and of those that haven't, I suspect the possibility lurks in the back of their mind.
While this would be annoying to find in the garage, it would be a disaster in some remote location or would ruin your day if on a trip, the worst possible outcome would be if it went up in a ball of flames.
It used to worry me that the extra head pressure from a full tank increased the likelihood of such an event while I was sleeping, so for less than $30 I now have peace of mind with this:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/902/27273916918_d3cd4aa6a2_c.jpg)
The default position is closed and it has a manual over ride in the event of a failure. A solonoid valve is very simple with not much to go wrong. I've put many 10's of 1000's of km's on this, works like a beauty.
I have posted about it several times but I suspect very few have done it. You could throw that dodgy petcock over your shoulder with one of these.
Noel
If I owned one of the early bikes, I'd be all over that like white on rice.
Joe
My take: On Fuel pumpers it would be ok, but not really needed (with the proper fuel pump used)
On gravity fed, no...at least not the size Noel used....it's too small in diameter for the flow needed.
I have posted this before for gravity fed units....http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=3CCC32F0434D41F0B6C89EC32D85EB11 (http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=3CCC32F0434D41F0B6C89EC32D85EB11) . Use a 90 degree fitting straight out the tank and a filter and you never have to think about fuel flow after you turn off the engine. It will feed 170HP all day. Great on early CBX's too!
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 23, 2019, 07:35:36 PM
My take: On Fuel pumpers it would be ok, but not really needed (with the proper fuel pump used)
On gravity fed, no...at least not the size Noel used....it's too small in diameter for the flow needed.
My take on your take: Pat, we are reminded from time to time of your FJ guru status in the form of glowing praise from the membership (it must be true, I read it on the net!) but in this case, your post falls a bit short of the usual high standard we are accustomed to.
Assuming the "proper" pump you refer to is the OEM unit, they
are the ones that periodically fail to hold back the fuel.
As for the gravity feed, it is the same size ID as the rest of the system. You could run a V8 on the fuel flow through that but if you're not happy, fit bigger tails to it and if you're still not happy with that, buy the next size up!
What about JMR's vac version?
IMO: Insuranace against fuel dumps aside, fuel taps (petcocks) became redundant when bikes were fitted with fuel gauges, their primary purpose to provide an on/off feature and the reserve function. Fuel dumping and dodgy petcocks are a constant on the forum. I would not spend 5 cents fixing one, I would just get rid of it, they don't serve any real purpose.
I sometimes wonder while reading of the woes being experienced with petcocks if the owner realises doing away it, such as JMR has done, is an option. Still having one on you bike makes no more sense than having one on your car.
Noel
Quote from: JMR on July 23, 2019, 09:10:08 PM
I have posted this before for gravity fed units....http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=3CCC32F0434D41F0B6C89EC32D85EB11 (http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=3CCC32F0434D41F0B6C89EC32D85EB11) . Use a 90 degree fitting straight out the tank and a filter and you never have to think about fuel flow after you turn off the engine. It will feed 170HP all day. Great on early CBX's too!
A vacuum version of much the same thing, excellent. Like the solenoid, it's simple, I like that. Seems a bit pricey for what it is though.
Noel
Well Noel, sorry my opinion is not up to your expectations...(no, not really)
You need to know what you're talking about, and in this case, because you don't have a gravity fed FJ, you don't know what you are talking about. You have a fuel pump FJ.
You do realize that the petcock and fuel lines and float needle seats are larger on a gravity fed system...correct? They are designed that way because they need to be that size...the gravity system does not have the benefit of a fuel pump pushing the fuel to the carbs, like on your bike.
As I mentioned, my take (aka my opinion) is that the solenoid in the picture may be fine for a fuel pump system, but it appears too small in diameter for a gravity fed system feeding 4 carbs and a thirsty engine.
The solenoid idea might have merit, just not that size on a '84-87 gravity fed FJ.
For the cost of the Pringel vacuum valve, you could save some money and just buy a brand new oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock from RPM (safety wired) and be good to go for another 30 years.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01)
Quote from: ribbert on July 24, 2019, 07:53:35 AM
Quote from: JMR on July 23, 2019, 09:10:08 PM
I have posted this before for gravity fed units....http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=3CCC32F0434D41F0B6C89EC32D85EB11 (http://www.pingelonline.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=3CCC32F0434D41F0B6C89EC32D85EB11) . Use a 90 degree fitting straight out the tank and a filter and you never have to think about fuel flow after you turn off the engine. It will feed 170HP all day. Great on early CBX's too!
A vacuum version of much the same thing, excellent. Like the solenoid, it's simple, I like that. Seems a bit pricey for what it is though.
Noel
I totally agree.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 24, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
For the cost of the Pringel vacuum valve, you could save some money and just buy a brand new oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock from RPM (safety wired) and be good to go for another 30 years.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01)
Hey Pat....we are talking fuel parts....not artificial potato chips. :biggrin: If I remember correctly I was having clearance problems with the OEM petcock and aftermarket carbs forcing me to install the lower profile set up.
Quote from: JMR on July 24, 2019, 06:03:54 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 24, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
For the cost of the Pringel vacuum valve, you could save some money and just buy a brand new oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock from RPM (safety wired) and be good to go for another 30 years.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01)
Hey Pat....we are talking fuel parts....not artificial potato chips. :biggrin: If I remember correctly I was having clearance problems with the OEM petcock and aftermarket carbs forcing me to install the lower profile set up.
Hey Mike, no worries....FYI here's your post from back in 2011....yep, you had some FCR clearance issues:
Quote from: JMR on May 02, 2011, 10:13:12 AM
I installed a Pingel adaptor plate ( not sure of part#)with a 90 degree fitting (part#229-8-6). I use Pingel's inline vacuum valve (part# 9050-AV) with the vacuum hose running off of #3 carb manifold. Very simple and has no problem keeping up with 39 FCR's.
Need I remind folks, back in the old days we needed a plan on what to do when our vacuum petcocks took a dump.
1) We did not have the luxury of RPM with an inventory of $126 oem petcocks. IIRC the cheapest was ~$220
if you could get them from Japan and 2) nobody had a rebuild kit.
In that case, the Pingel vacuum valve was a solution to a malfunctioning oem vacuum petcock.
RPM has changed all that...IMHO.
Pat, what did you do for work before you retired?
Noel
Worked in city government.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 24, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
You need to know what you're talking about, and in this case, because you don't have a gravity fed FJ, you don't know what you are talking about. You have a fuel pump FJ.
You do realize that the petcock and fuel lines and float needle seats are larger on a gravity fed system...correct? They are designed that way because they need to be that size...the gravity system does not have the benefit of a fuel pump pushing the fuel to the carbs, like on your bike.
:Facepalm:: You not only got me Pat, but with repartee like that, left me nowhere to go. How embarrassing not knowing how gravity works at my age. You say I have a fuel pump model, should I ever need to find it, where is it located?
Noel
Here you go Noel, I've circled my fuel pump in the photo - it sits behind the right side panel under the tank on my 89 3CV :good2:
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/6213_30_07_19_9_48_07.jpeg)
Glad to help Noel. Even us old guys can learn something new....but you gotta be willing.
Back to the bad kreem job...
A little update. After spending a week in the electrolysis solution, it is now time for the paint stripper. The bad kreem job became even more evident after the electrolysis rust removal. Once the bubbled up portioned of the sealer were removed the valleys in each side of the tanks were found to be completely filled with tank sealer. This might have been a great thought, but no.
Here are a few photos. The allen wrench is about eaten completely away from the electrolysis.
Here are many of the big chunks I was able to dig out of the side valleys of the tank before starting with the stripper yesterday.
It is soaking in stripper right now to continued to soften the tank sealer down in the valleys. I had one run yesterday and got some more out. Going to let it soak for a couple of days all sealed up with the sealer inside. I rotate the tank a couple of times a day to coat the whole inside to ensure I get all of the old sealer out.
Randy - RPM
So after electrolysis, the tank looked rust free on the inside?
Are you using methyl chloride paint remover?
Joe
Quote from: Tuned forks on July 30, 2019, 05:56:05 PM
So after electrolysis, the tank looked rust free on the inside?
Are you using methyl chloride paint remover?
Joe
Yes and no. Where the coating was gone, the tank looks great. But under what I am digging out is major rust.
Once I get all the coating out, then back to electrolysis to get the remaining rust addressed.
I'm using jasco paint stripper from the hardware store, nothing special.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 24, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
You need to know what you're talking about, and in this case, because you don't have a gravity fed FJ, you don't know what you are talking about. You have a fuel pump FJ.
As I mentioned, my take (aka my opinion) is........ appears too small in diameter for a gravity fed system feeding 4 carbs and a thirsty engine.
Hey Pat, I'm a bit slow on the uptake here but I just had a thought. If knowledge is limited to the bike one currently owns, as you say above, how come you know about fuel pump bikes and fuel cut-off solenoid fitted bikes?
Noel
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 24, 2019, 11:08:26 AM
You do realize that the petcock and fuel lines and float needle seats are larger on a gravity fed system...correct? They are designed that way because they need to be that size...the gravity system does not have the benefit of a fuel pump pushing the fuel to the carbs, like on your bike.
As I mentioned, my take (aka my opinion) is that the solenoid in the picture may be fine for a fuel pump system, but it appears too small in diameter for a gravity fed system feeding 4 carbs and a thirsty engine.
The solenoid idea might have merit, just not that size on a '84-87 gravity fed FJ.
Hey Pat, I just had another thought. If I was recommending something, say a battery, a tyre, a chain OR a fuel cut-off solenoid etc, do you really think that if an explicit written instruction to buy the appropriate size, shape, length whatever, to suit
their particular bike was needed, should they even be doing their own work? I think not.
BTW, I didn't use those tails in the photo, the looked a bit small and were smaller than the solenoid body.
Quote from: ribbert on July 31, 2019, 09:22:28 AM
... how come you know about fuel pump bikes and fuel cut-off solenoid fitted bikes?
I've owned a '92 for 10 years. Noel, let's take this to PM.
Let Randy's thread get back on track.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 31, 2019, 12:33:51 PM
Noel, let's take this to PM.
Let Randy's thread get back on track.
I thought something a little more contrite from you would be appropriate. Anyway, you've pulled the pin now.
Noel
(popcorn)
(popcorn)
Hmmm... seems as if the seats are filling - is it acceptable in polite society to watch a nervous breakdown...?!
Gentle now, it's all in good humor...!