Any pointers or tips for a first timer on the valve adjustment/check? Done on cars before, but never on a bike. :empathy3:
Searching didn't help. Maybe someone can point me to an old post at least? Thx
Bob G.
I found a pretty good post of how-to, on the UK XJR site. It's post #18 in the thread <http://www.xjrog.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=666.15 (http://www.xjrog.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=666.15)>. Once you get past the British, it's a pretty good description of the job. Some of the differences of the XJR vs. FJ become apparent, but they have the same motor, so how much diff can they be ...?
Agreed. That's a pretty decent write up with good photos. Thanks for the link.
I drew a map of the top of the motor, basically a row of circles drawn around a 1' socket or something. Then for each valve I wrote down clearance, the shim thickness that came out (if required), the shim that went in, and the clearance after. Handy to have a record to refer to.
I'm guessing I will need the valve shim tool? Anywhere recommended for purchase? Any other method or homemade device that can be fabricated? Or is it possible to find a used tool somewhere?
Yup, you'll need the valve tool. I don't think I'd try w/o it. Perhaps Randy has the tool available. I've seen a few on Fleabay, lately for ~$65US (OUCH!). Don't know where else to find one. Sorry.
That's what I figured. Bummer. I seen the Ebay one this morning too, for about $70. Ouch indeed.
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 07, 2010, 07:52:37 AM
I'm guessing I will need the valve shim tool? Anywhere recommended for purchase? Any other method or homemade device that can be fabricated? Or is it possible to find a used tool somewhere?
Bob,
I made my own adjusting tool about 15 years ago and have been using it since. Just bent from sheet steel with a bit of trial & error on the shape.
Stuart (Glasgow, Scotland)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2688/4500067183_7ca2ee8f30.jpg)
I'm not brave enough to fabricate one sight unseen. I can't afford for my daily driver to be sitting too long while I play with getting the right bend in it. Maybe if I have another one in hand to copy, but not just making it out of the air. I will continue to look for the tool, or a friend that might have one I can barrow.
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 08, 2010, 08:39:24 AM
I'm not brave enough to fabricate one sight unseen. I can't afford for my daily driver to be sitting too long while I play with getting the right bend in it. Maybe if I have another one in hand to copy, but not just making it out of the air. I will continue to look for the tool, or a friend that might have one I can barrow.
......there are some valeshim tools on ebay for about 70.00 bucks and i pretty sure they have the shims on there but shim can still be gotten at the dealer....if your not comfortable with doin that type of a job on your on your own pay the 175.00 bucks to have a good mechanic do it .....i wish i had done that with this transmisson.
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 07, 2010, 09:53:01 AM
That's what I figured. Bummer. I seen the Ebay one this morning too, for about $70. Ouch indeed.
That's already been gone over Dumpster. Thanks.
Quote from: dumpster on April 08, 2010, 08:51:19 AM
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 08, 2010, 08:39:24 AM
I'm not brave enough to fabricate one sight unseen. I can't afford for my daily driver to be sitting too long while I play with getting the right bend in it. Maybe if I have another one in hand to copy, but not just making it out of the air. I will continue to look for the tool, or a friend that might have one I can barrow.
......if your not comfortable with doin that type of a job on your on your own pay the 175.00 bucks to have a good mechanic do it .....i wish i had done that with this transmisson.
I want to learn how to do these things myself. I may just have to bite the bullet.
Pull the cams as you do it then, like it was shim under bucket.
Quote from: andyb on April 08, 2010, 09:35:05 AM
Pull the cams as you do it then, like it was shim under bucket.
Please explain. You lost me.
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 08, 2010, 09:41:51 AM
Please explain. You lost me.
....if you pull the cams then you don't need the valve-bucket-holder-downer-tool.
I have the tool, you can borrow it.... send me your mailing address.
...just don't make me send Ted down to Texas to pick it up :sarcastic:
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 08, 2010, 09:41:51 AM
Please explain. You lost me.
Measure the various clearances. Write them down.
Pull a cam, noting the reference marks for timing.
Remove shims. Read their numbers (and mic them up, to be sure). Work out proper shims required.
Procure shims. Insert shims in buckets in proper locations. Replace cam, again ensuring proper timing.
Repeat on other cam.
It's a little rougher but saves $70. Depends on how worried you are about things.
Okay,
Here is the deal on the valve adjusting tool (VAT). Kent-Moore who made the originals has stopped making them. Another manufacture is now making them and the price on the wholesale side more than doubled. I can sell any FJowner member a VAT for $60.11. That is barely covering the cost of the tool and the shipping & "handling" the supplier charges me to get the tool here. I currently have them with a list price of $70.00 just like everyone else.
I can probably work out some sort of shim exchange program for our members as well. I do it for my racers now, but I am the one adjusting the valves, so there is no freight involved.
There has been prior conversation about having a group kit to send all over for member use. That is a great idea, but it only takes one time that the cam get turned the wrong way, the tool gets bent and will not function anymore. That is the reason I have never chimed in on the subject, because it will either end up with a damaged tool or a bunch of shims that no one can use.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 08, 2010, 01:14:20 PM
Okay,
Here is the deal on the valve adjusting tool (VAT). Kent-Moore who made the originals has stopped making them. Another manufacture is now making them and the price on the wholesale side more than doubled. I can sell any FJowner member a VAT for $60.11. That is barely covering the cost of the tool and the shipping & "handling" the supplier charges me to get the tool here. I currently have them with a list price of $70.00 just like everyone else.
I can probably work out some sort of shim exchange program for our members as well. I do it for my racers now, but I am the one adjusting the valves, so there is no freight involved.
There has been prior conversation about having a group kit to send all over for member use. That is a great idea, but it only takes one time that the cam get turned the wrong way, the tool gets bent and will not function anymore. That is the reason I have never chimed in on the subject, because it will either end up with a damaged tool or a bunch of shims that no one can use.
Randy - RPM
Ok - Of all the versions, I think I will go about it this way:
IF TRoy will lend me the tool that he has offered (that I will be very gentle with), then I will go that route.
IF I need different shims, then I will contact you (Randy) and perform the appropriate begging process for buy, swap, or appropriating.
Sound reasonable? If that doesn't work out, then I will buy the tool somehow and continue from there.
Cheers all! :drinks:
Local shop I just called wants $360 to check and adjust the valves, so that version is most definitely out of the question.
Good news is that they have boxes and boxes of the shims and they are $5.95 per shim. I can live with that.
Lastly, even though I was a skeptic about pulling the cams off (sorry andyb), two of the shops I called say that is the preferred way to do it, to prevent messing up the cups that the shims float/rotate in. I'm kind of torn how to do it now........ :unknown:
What is there to mess up? The shim over bucket design is very simple to work on and unless you use a hammer and chisel you're not going to mess anything up. That's what the bucket tool is for. It holds the bucket down while you rotate the cam lobe out of the way. Then use a small flat tip screw driver to pop the shim out. Thousands of people have done it this way for 20+ years.
The shops might be thinking of a shim under bucket setup. For this you have to take the cams out. The Hayabusa is a shim under bucket design, and the shims are about the size of a pencil eraser. Imagine how much of a PITA it is to do valve adjustments on that?
Even though the tool is $70, it's a one time purchase. It will save you money down the road. I paid over $100 for my Morgan Carbtune and it's paid for it self time and time again. Plus if someone in your area with a FJ needs to check the valves.. hey you've got the tool to do it.
Buy the tool and do the work yourself. You'll be proud of a job well done in the end. :good2:
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 08, 2010, 02:43:16 PM
Lastly, even though I was a skeptic about pulling the cams off (sorry andyb), two of the shops I called say that is the preferred way to do it, to prevent messing up the cups that the shims float/rotate in. I'm kind of torn how to do it now........ :unknown:
I call booshit on that one. The easiest and fastest way to adjust the valves is with the VAT. That is probably why they want $360.00 to adjust them instead of an hour max labor. I can check and adjust the valves on the engine in less than 20 minutes including once the valve cover is off...And I can honestly say that I have never in 16 years and probably close to 1000 adjustments, damaged a bucket. (Hell, I have done 7 this week alone)
Measure the clearance. Document your measurements. Install the tools on those that need adjustment. Use the chart to determine what shim to install once you have removed the old one. Install the replacement shim and move on the the next one. Can get much easier than that.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: Scooterbob on April 08, 2010, 02:43:16 PM
Local shop I just called wants $360 to check and adjust the valves, so that version is most definitely out of the question.
Good news is that they have boxes and boxes of the shims and they are $5.95 per shim. I can live with that.
Lastly, even though I was a skeptic about pulling the cams off (sorry andyb), two of the shops I called say that is the preferred way to do it, to prevent messing up the cups that the shims float/rotate in. I'm kind of torn how to do it now........ :unknown:
Bob,
I would advise against removing the cams to adjust the valves. Too much hassle and an unnecessary risk. The tool is expensive for what it is but I'd invest in one if you intent to keep your FJ for a while. If you haven't checked the valves do this first. Maybe adjustment isn't necessary. I generally have to swap a shim only every 2nd or 3rd time. Note that the gaps will tend to become tight rather than loose. I wouldn't worry about the "cups" (buckets) there is little you could do to damage them. FYI here's my home made in operation.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2749/4503124189_9018520744_o.jpg)
Stuart
One other thing to consider for the "remove the cams" technique.
You will need to reset the cam chain tensioner. That will require removing the cards to get to it. Plus a new gasket for the tensioner. It's worth at least $70 to not have to pull the carbs for a valve check/adjust.
You will also have to go through the hassle of re-timing the cams CORRECTLY. It may take more than once to get it right. I have degreed cams. I ONLY remove them IF the head is coming off. The tool is twice the price in the long run. However, I'm glad I bought mine 25 year ago. :-)
DavidR.
did mine a few weeks ago, no cam removal, tho the guy I use for shim swaps was a bit ott at $9 AUD per shim but as I only needed 6 it was not toooo bad.
I am thinking of starting a shim collection something I should have done years ago.
Enough said. I will buy, or barrow the tool and attempt it myself. Thanks for all the great feedback. It is/was a great help!
Don't remove the cams to much work, the tool at $60 bucks from Randy is worth it. I would measure each clearance and pull each shim out to find out what you have on each bucket. That way you can see if you can see if you can move some around and save on the number you have to purchase.
I just add a Valve work sheet to the file section use it as you do each valve At the end keep track of the final shim # installed so the next valve job will be easy.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1800.msg14266#msg14266 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1800.msg14266#msg14266)
LA Mike
Quote from: pdxfj on April 08, 2010, 03:29:12 PM
What is there to mess up? The shim over bucket design is very simple to work on and unless you use a hammer and chisel you're not going to mess anything up. That's what the bucket tool is for. It holds the bucket down while you rotate the cam lobe out of the way. Then use a small flat tip screw driver to pop the shim out. Thousands of people have done it this way for 20+ years.
The shops might be thinking of a shim under bucket setup. For this you have to take the cams out. The Hayabusa is a shim under bucket design, and the shims are about the size of a pencil eraser. Imagine how much of a PITA it is to do valve adjustments on that?
Even though the tool is $70, it's a one time purchase. It will save you money down the road. I paid over $100 for my Morgan Carbtune and it's paid for it self time and time again. Plus if someone in your area with a FJ needs to check the valves.. hey you've got the tool to do it.
Buy the tool and do the work yourself. You'll be proud of a job well done in the end. :good2:
WEll said! :good2:
there is no better confidence than knowing your FJ is running as well as it possibly can by your own hand.
KOokaloo!
One other very useful tip that I think was originally posted by Danny (and now that I've typed his first name, his last name has completely jumped from my mind, V-Strom 650, sorry Danny I'm so embarrassed).
If you're swapping shims around and don't have an extra one to help you move a few, you can use a quarter to occupy the spot until you're through.
DavidR.
Quote from: SlowOldGuy on April 08, 2010, 06:34:54 PM
originally posted by Danny (and now that I've typed his first name, his last name has completely jumped from my mind, V-Strom 650, sorry Danny I'm so embarrassed).
ah yes, Mr. Daniel D Lewis, AKA FUCK YOU DANNY :sarcastic:
Boone Is Soon!
I think there is a sheet posted in the files section that has all the valves so you can write down the clearances and figure out what shims you need.
Also, if its not here, the Yahoo FJ Owners Group has the link to the CBX web-site where you can order shims online if you can't source any locally. The Honda shim is the same.
Can't believe the shim tool doubled in price.
damn all this talk about valve adjustments! I just bought the tool off ebay and while I was on a roll I also bought a carbtune (sick of borrowing one!) So when all this stuff arrives I'll be diving into Sweet-things' innards again!
Quote from: fjrpierre on April 14, 2010, 11:19:44 AM
damn all this talk about valve adjustments! I just bought the tool off ebay and while I was on a roll I also bought a carbtune (sick of borrowing one!) So when all this stuff arrives I'll be diving into Sweet-things' innards again!
Valve Adjustment - The inevitable journey.
Valve adjustment Day 1: I have the manual, the tool, a piece of cake eh?
question #1 The manuel shows how by turning CCW, to align the T mark on the timing plate to the pointer on the stationary coil so that piston is TDC. I measure no 1 cyl ex and intake clearances of < 0.04mm for each. So now it says measure clearances for Nos 2, then 4 and then 3 cyl in sequence.
What do I align to get TDC for Cyl #2? Do I just rotate it CCW another 90 degrees so that the pointer aligns with the next tab (the top one in the picture), and another 90 degree for Cyl 4 , then a final 90 degree for cyl 3?
(http://fjrpierre.smugmug.com/Other/carb-hell/IMG3811/857976787_BKRgT-L.jpg)
I usually just rotate the crank until the cam lobes match the position for valves closed.
Kookaloo!
Frank
I don't go by those marks. I actually measure TDC with a metal rod down the spark plug hole and watch the tip of it as I SLOWLY raise it up to TDC. I use the metal rod from the FJ toolkit that goes into the sparkplug socket. Does it actually matter if you are off a touch on TDC? I don't know...but at least I KNOW that my TDC is actually TDC!
Oh, DON'T try this with a wooden pencil...DAMHIK!! :dash1:
If #1 is ~TDC, both the cam lobes will be away from the followers. After checking #1, rotate crank 180º then check #2. Rotate another 180º, check #4 then another 180º and check #3. As long as the cam lobes are off the followers, you'll be OK.
Thank you gentlemen
so I rotate 180 degrees not 90!
(that's a relief; I could not see myself willingly sticking anything in the spark plug hole :bad: )
Quote from: fjrpierre on May 05, 2010, 05:49:06 PM
Thank you gentlemen
so I rotate 180 degrees not 90!
(that's a relief; I could not see myself willingly sticking anything in the spark plug hole :bad: )
Pierre. just make sure the base circle of the cam is over the shim when taking your measurments and you will be fine... The base circle is 180 degrees from the lobe.
Eric M
Well After a rocky start, I got it together today with your help and measured all the clearances. Four exhaust valves (cyl 1 & 4) and two intake valves (cyl 2) were off. On checking the existing shims, I can reuse 3 shims and need 3. Will get on that tomorrow. (I now learned a whole new langauge of lifters, lobs, slits, cams, ...) :blum1:
Quote from: fjrpierre on May 05, 2010, 05:49:06 PM
(that's a relief; I could not see myself willingly sticking anything in the spark plug hole :bad: )
Glad you got it figured out! However - in my defense - I have been doing valves this way on 3 FJs for 7+ years now with no problems. It's not that scary once you do it once...it easily takes any guesswork out of making sure you are at TDC...FWIW...
Sorry Marsh I didn't mean to seem ungrateful for your advice, it's just that bad things seem to happen to me around such areas. It's like I have a "black hole" curse and everything gets sucked in there never to be found again. :unknown:
Just to close my little valve adjustment saga, I had six off and could swap 3 and needed 3. RubarbRay had the missing shims in his extensive collection (half sizes even), and a digital caliper and we completed the adjustment. I buttoned everything up and with the carbs reinstalled, and throttle cables lubed, let her idle for a while. Had a small leak in a corner of the valve cover which I successfully patched with gasket sealant. Did a carb syn again and took it out for a long run. :biggrin:
The combo of freeing up throttle cable, valve adjust, carb cleaning and carb syn gave some excellent results. Next step is another attempt at freeing up the motor mounts...after Boone; that should further reduce the vibration in the lower gears significantly.
these were my readings after over 100k km of no adjustments.
exhaust spec 0.16~0.20
measured 0.13 0.13 ; 0.17 0.17 ; 0.17 0.19 ; 0.11 0.09
intake spec 0.11~0.15
measured 0.12 0.12; 0.06 0.08 ;0.11 0.11 ;0.11 0.11
Quote from: fjrpierre on May 10, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
...
The combo of freeing up throttle cable, valve adjust, carb cleaning and carb syn gave some excellent results. Next step is another attempt at freeing up the motor mounts...after Boone; that should further reduce the vibration in the lower gears significantly.
...
I went through the same sequence, and freeing up my seized engine mounts made the biggest difference. I suspect you'll be really pleased with the change.
Finally!!! :dance2: I have completed my valve adjustment/check. It wasn't a bad job overall. Just the unknown of doing it the first time. I had the great company of "FJ1200X2" to assist in the task. Between the two of us, we worked out all of the questions as they came up. I am by no means an expert now, but I can confidently make future checks/adjustments without hesitation.
Thanks to all that contributed.
Quote from: Scooterbob on May 20, 2010, 05:30:06 AM
Finally!!! :dance2: I have completed my valve adjustment/check...... Thanks to all that contributed."
Yea, are these guys great or what? Gotta love this forum.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 20, 2010, 11:48:18 AM
Quote from: Scooterbob on May 20, 2010, 05:30:06 AM
Finally!!! :dance2: I have completed my valve adjustment/check...... Thanks to all that contributed."
Yea, are these guys great or what? Gotta love this forum.
I am a member of many forums for autos, but of all forums for cars, trucks, moped, or motorcycles I must admit that THIS forum has been the most helpful, hands down. :yes:
Quote from: Scooterbob on May 20, 2010, 01:10:15 PM
I am a member of many forums I must admit that THIS forum has been the most helpful, hands down. :yes:
(http://www.fjrally.com/picgallery/gallery%2F2009%5FFall%5FRally%2C%5FEast%5FCoast%2Ftellico%20016%2Ejpg)
In my limited time exploring the forum I have also been impressed with how helpful everyone is. I had a similar experience at the Royal Enfield forum (my previous bike was a 2002 Bullet 500).
A strong community makes owning a particular bike an even greater pleasure.