Greetings,
Time to consult with the wisdom of the collective yet again (resistance is futile). A little background: On our way back from this years Boone Rally last week Sunday my '92 FJ suddenly decided it did not want to start without either a boost or a bump-start. This was about 700 km in on our 1,000+ km ride that day. We made it to our destination and at the time I was convinced that it must be the battery - which by the way is a Yuasa YTX20HL-BS, considerably larger than the stock battery. A little more background, my '92 FJ has a 1314 big-bore kit, done by the original owner and the larger battery was put in at that time. Getting back to the more recent happenings, the following morning we were able to start the bike the bike by giving it a boost off Rob's '85 so it added to my suspicion that my battery must have lost it's cranking ability. On the way home we stopped by a Yamaha dealer near Buffalo, NY (Bob Weaver Motorsports) and they were good enough to test the battery which indicated that it was good. A few bump-starts later and we were able to make it home - to London, ON for me. Keep in mind that once the bike was actually running it ran just fine. I called the local dealer in London (Inglis Cycle) as I purchased this battery less than a year ago so I figured it should be under warranty. I was told that once a battery goes "through a winter" there is no more warranty - they must figure that I don't know how to store and maintain a battery. I contacted Yuasa and they were good enough to ship a new battery to me which I received this past Friday. I installed the electrolyte, charged it as per the instructions and put the fresh new battery in the bike...not much improvement, if any. More History: I installed a new 4-brush starter and solenoid (from RPM) a year ago as well. This FJ has always been a little finicky when it comes to starting and even more so after the top-end was redone 2 years ago which I attributed to the increased compression especially since the base gasket no longer leaks. On our epic ride to Alaska the bike would not want to start when it was hot (wait 5-10 minutes and it was fine) but there was never a problem with cold starts. Now it doesn't seem to matter one way or the other. A buddy of mine recommended that I check the wiring and specifically the grounding which I just did today - pulled the main ground wire off the engine case, sanded off the debris/oxidation from the terminal and actually relocated it to a better area on the engine case where there is a jumper wire between two bolt heads for an even better connection. And for shits and giggles I routed two (2) wires from that point to the starter mounting bolts (also sanded off around the bolt head area to ensure good connection). There still doesn't seem to be much of an improvement. So yes, I'm a bit stumped at this point. I have a brand-new battery rated at 310 cold cranking amps, a good solid ground connection (also checked positive from battery to solenoid and then to starter), a relatively new starter and solenoid. Could it be that this is just the nature of the beast when it has a big-bore kit? I was reading a post in the modifications section: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1543.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1543.0) which I may look into but I don't want to throw money at this problem if I'm not confident that it will resolve the problem. The other thing I'm contemplating is to go to a Lithium type of batter which I believe I can get with anywhere between 400 and 500 CCA.
Your thoughts, recommendations, advice, wisdom, prayers, support, condolences and anecdotes are appreciated!
Thanks,
Zwartie
Does the starter seem sluggish or does it seem to "spin" normally but just does start?
Good Question Mike!
It's sluggish, like it doesn't want to turn over for the first compression stroke but if it makes it past that then it will continue to spin. The last time I started it cold (successfully) I hit the starter with no choke then turned the choke up while it was spinning and the bike started. If I pull the choke beforehand then it really seems to struggle to spin. I hope that makes sense.
Thanks,
Zwartie
Quote from: Mike 86 in San Dimas on May 24, 2015, 06:57:35 PM
Does the starter seem sluggish or does it seem to "spin" normally but just does start?
Zwartie,
What is the voltage at the battery, when cranking the starter? What is the voltage at the starter, when cranking the starter? Have you run Seafoam in the tank lately? Do you let the fuel pump come up to pressure and quit, before cranking the starter? Is the fuel filter clean? Will it start better with some ether spray (starting fluid)? Does it start willingly on a bump start, or does it balk even then? On a cold start, do all of the exhaust pipes heat up equally fast? When was the last change of spark plugs? Are they the normal and correct spark plugs, or something "upscale"? A compression test would help the troubleshooting, here.
You might want to mark the electrode side of the spark plugs, and install them with the electrode on the exhaust side of each cylinder, if possible. Not all plugs fit in each cylinder in the same location, where electrodes are concerned. New crush washers may help, there.
Your choke action makes me suspect the timing may be off.
Good hunting . . .
Red
Thanks for the advice Red. I should have been more specific about it being "hard to start" and should have said it doesn't want to turn over too easily. It's that first turnover that seems to be the hardest - slow and sluggish, but if it makes it past that then it turns over more quickly and the engine actually starts no problem. If the bike is warm it will bump-start no problem at all. I will check the voltage at the starter itself as well.
Thanks,
Zwartie
A little out there but as the engine has been modified you might consider checking your advance. Were adjustable cam shaft gears installed ? They have been known to slip.
George
I've posted a short video showing the voltage at the battery while I start the bike a number of times. If you listen to it you can hear how it gets progressively harder to turn over, or at least the starter is not turning over as quickly (attempts 1-4) until it won't turn over at all (attempts 5-7). This is after the bike had been running for about 5 minutes so it's a little warmed up, but not too much.
https://youtu.be/EsX-RhAZ8aU
Zwartie
Quote from: Zwartie on May 24, 2015, 08:48:34 PM
I've posted a short video showing the voltage at the battery while I start the bike a number of times. If you listen to it you can hear how it gets progressively harder to turn over, or at least the starter is not turning over as quickly (attempts 1-4) until it won't turn over at all (attempts 5-7). This is after the bike had been running for about 5 minutes so it's a little warmed up, but not too much.
Zwartie
Zwartie,
That battery voltage looks to be good enough, but digital voltmeters may hold a reading long enough to deceive you. If you have that same voltage at the starter each time, I'd want to look at that starter, and the ignition timing.
Just on a guess, there may be a dirty electrical connection somewhere between the battery and starter. You can get a small wire "toothbrush" from the hardware and automotive stores. You might want several. Dis-assemble and wire-brush each connection down to clean shiny metal, from the battery to the starter. Replace any corroded hardware, along the way.
Got a good way to check the timing?
Cheers,
Red
Don't forget you have a starter relay in the mix there. Just thinking about a not so good connection in the system.
George
Quote from: movenon on May 24, 2015, 10:11:50 PM
Don't forget you have a starter relay in the mix there. Just thinking about a not so good connection in the system.
George
What George said. Contacts in the relay may be worn out. Easy to check by just shorting the relay and see if the starter turns faster. Dave
You have my condolences .... and I will pray for you too.
My suggestion is to use a temporary batt cable and touch the starter cable directly from battery, bypassing the relay with the ign off. does it still spin slow? If yes you may have a problem with the cable is too small for the amps ..does the cable to the starter get hot to the touch when trying to start?
Next turn ign on and once again use the jumper cable directly to the starter bypassing the relay. engine should turn over and start running. If the engine turned over slowly because of ign being on you will need more power to turn over engine ..bigger battery .
or
I would suggest you install an ign on switch just for the coils and go "old school" where you turn key on , then push start button and after it spins up flip the switch to the coils to fire engine. This is a high compression engine trick used in race engines.
also
Have you done the coil relay modification yet.. this most definitely helps with slow starting engines.
and
On another thought , does your fuel pump shut off ? it may be leaking into cylinders and hydrolocking the engine.
Have fun with that. :drinks: I hope I did not confuse you with my crazy ways.
Zwartie, great meeting you the other week.
Does it turn over slow? How many miles / km on it again?
Mine turned over slow. Most of the time it was solved by replacing the battery, but eventually it got to the point where it was slow starting even with a good battery. The symptoms (and age of the bike) lead me to suspect the starter.
I probably could have gone with rebuilding the starter using new brushes, but for not much more money than the starter rebuild kit, I simply replaced the original 2-pole starter with a 4-pole starter. Turns over plenty fast now. (I still have starter clutch problems, but that'll get tackled another time.)
Obviously, check electrical connections to make sure they are making good contact, there hasn't been sufficient heat to melt connectors, etc. But for me, when it turned out not to be a boiled-dry battery, it was the starter.
Best of luck.
- Bill
First of all paragraph's are good.
What is your compression ratio?
Have you done a compression test on each cylinder?
Sounds like if you let it crank for a couple more seconds it might have fired
A fellow VJMC member recently had what seems to a similar problem with his 1200. Turned out to be a fault in the ignition switch. His son took it apart and fixed it. Sorry, I can't remember exactly what he did to it. Could be worth checking.
Quote from: red on May 24, 2015, 10:02:11 PM
Quote from: Zwartie on May 24, 2015, 08:48:34 PM
I've posted a short video showing the voltage at the battery while I start the bike a number of times. If you listen to it you can hear how it gets progressively harder to turn over, or at least the starter is not turning over as quickly (attempts 1-4) until it won't turn over at all (attempts 5-7). This is after the bike had been running for about 5 minutes so it's a little warmed up, but not too much.
Zwartie
Zwartie,
That battery voltage looks to be good enough, but digital voltmeters may hold a reading long enough to deceive you. If you have that same voltage at the starter each time, I'd want to look at that starter, and the ignition timing. Expanding foam .
Quote from: Zwartie on May 24, 2015, 08:48:34 PM
I've posted a short video showing the voltage at the battery while I start the bike a number of times. If you listen to it you can hear how it gets progressively harder to turn over, or at least the starter is not turning over as quickly (attempts 1-4) until it won't turn over at all (attempts 5-7). This is after the bike had been running for about 5 minutes so it's a little warmed up, but not too much.
https://youtu.be/EsX-RhAZ8aU
Zwartie
Hey Ben,
High compression motor...cracking the throttle while cranking help any?? :unknown: Make it spin over faster??
Just a thought....
Jake....
I crack the throttle open about an 1/8 when the engine is hot. it helps. A better and more long term option is get a 4 brush starter. They crank over quickly hot or cold.
I'm not sure if this is even the issue, but recently I was having trouble with charging, battery going flat if I was using a lot of juice, harder starting -- and found the connector between the generator and the regulator to be corroded and melted. I replaced this connector and the charging issue is gone and the bike starts better than it ever has in the last 8 ? years that I've owned it. Seems to pull better from low RPMs also--no hesitation.
The connector I'm talking about is red and located on two wires just below your airbox / left side. There is a recent write up on this issue. It's an easy check and a simple fix if it is the issue.
Mark M
Do you mean this one?
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/medium_104_15_02_15_8_58_24_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/medium_104_15_02_15_8_58_30_2.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/medium_104_15_02_15_8_58_27_1.jpeg)
And the fix
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/8/104_19_03_15_3_50_12.jpeg)
Quote from: markmartin on June 04, 2015, 03:09:05 PMI'm not sure if this is even the issue, but recently I was having trouble with charging, battery going flat if I was using a lot of juice, harder starting -- and found the connector between the generator and the regulator to be corroded and melted. I replaced this connector and the charging issue is gone and the bike starts better than it ever has in the last 8 ? years that I've owned it. Seems to pull better from low RPMs also--no hesitation. The connector I'm talking about is red and located on two wires just below your airbox / left side. There is a recent write up on this issue. It's an easy check and a simple fix if it is the issue.
Mark M
This link goes with Mark's electrical repair here: if you need any old motorcycle electrical connectors, we have a few sources.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=14042.msg141775#msg141775 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=14042.msg141775#msg141775)
Cheers,
Red
Quote from: FJmonkey on June 04, 2015, 03:27:42 PM
Do you mean this one?
Yup. Looks exactly like mine did.
This evening my good buddy Rob Hersey came over to help me troubleshoot the issue. Before he arrived I took the bike for a little ride to get the engine warmed up so we could do a compression test on the cylinders. Wouldn't you know it, I stalled the bike 2 blocks from home and of course it wouldn't turn over so I had to push it - D'oh! Motorcycles are much easier to ride than they are to push.
Anyway, we started with the compression test and the results were 180, 200, 205 and 205 PSI for cylinders 1 through 4 respectively. I had called Mike Law at Raceworks Canada earlier that day and he predicted the results would be in the 200 PSI range for an FJ1200 with a 1314cc big bore kit. He was pretty much spot-on. By comparison, Rob's '85 FJ1100 cylinders are in the 140 PSI range. Obviously a big-bore engine is going to require more oomph to get going. Mike Law had recommended that I do something like the coil relay mod so that the engine can turn over for at least "One Steamboat" before it tries to fire. We put the plugs back in and tried turning it over without the plug wires connected and still no turnover. Hmmm...
The next thing we did was to connect my other Yuasa battery in parallel (they sent me a replacement under warranty) to see if that would turn it over but no such luck. We thought that would provide enough cranking amps. Rob also connected a Fluke meter to the battery to monitor the voltage and it was dropping to around 10V when the starter was attempting to turn over the engine. We also connected my Mazda CX-9 to boost and it worked the first time when the engine was running, didn't with the engine off and then didn't when we tried again with the CX-9 engine running again. Hmmm...
I told Rob that I had replaced the starter, solenoid and battery just a year ago and showed him the original (4-brush) starter which I still had on hand. For fun we opened it up to inspect it and it actually looked good - brushes in good shape and not too much residue. We decided to remove the "new" starter and reinstall the original one just to see what happens. Well, wouldn't you know it, the bike turned over like it was just off the showroom floor - no hesitation at all and it spun nice and fast! Hmmm...
We decided to open up the "new" starter to see what it looked like. I believe we found our smoking gun. It even smelled like smoke. See photos below.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/112_08_06_15_7_24_53.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/112_08_06_15_7_25_30.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/112_08_06_15_7_26_07.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/112_08_06_15_7_27_06.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/112_08_06_15_7_27_41.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/9/112_08_06_15_7_28_23.jpeg)
I believe the starter must have been set to self-destruct mode. Notice the copper bits in the last photo - remnants of a winding. I'm surprised the starter was able to turn over at all! I installed the starter on April 30, 2014 and the FJ had 121,300 km on it at the time. It's now at 133,800 so that means the starter lasted 12,500 km (about 7,800 miles) and just over a year. I guess they don't build 'em like they used to!
So now I am running with a new battery and the original starter. I'll be sure to test hot and cold starts in the next few weeks to see how she does but for the moment it looks promising.
Thanks again to everyone for your advice and support!
Zwartie
Ben, Glad you got your issue fixed! Where you get the starter that failed?
Got it from Randy at RPM. Not sure if it would be considered warranty or not. I bought it from RPM because it was the "real thing", not one of the cheap Chinese versions. I'm thinking it may have been defective. Oddly enough I thought the original starter was the problem a year ago but it must have been the battery at that time.
Quote from: markmartin on June 08, 2015, 09:21:20 PM
Ben, Glad you got your issue fixed! Where you get the starter that failed?
Update: I sent the starter back to Randy and he opened it up and pulled the armature out of the casing. He sent me a few photos and yes, she blowed up real good! It was definitely in self-destruct mode. Bottom line: Randy stands by what he sells and offered a full refund for the faulty component, including what it cost me to ship it back to him. Thanks Randy!
Zwartie
Send me the bill for the shipping costs both ways and I will cover it!
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on June 18, 2015, 10:45:36 PM
Send me the bill for the shipping costs both ways and I will cover it!
You want me to send you the shipping bills, both to him & return to me?
Randy - RPM
Hooligan,
You lost me on that one. Please explain.
Thanks,
Zwartie
Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on June 18, 2015, 10:45:36 PM
Send me the bill for the shipping costs both ways and I will cover it!
As usual, Randy is going way above and beyond in his service.
My offer is to reimburse him for extraneous costs that eat into any profit.
Just my way of trying to help out.