Just came in from a cold 1hr ride (+3c). Pulled into the garage and noticed a significant amount of fuel dripping out of each of the three drain hoses that are under the bike. Saw some in the wet driveway as well from where I pulled in and turned around.
This bike is new to me and I'm learning as I go but this is concerning.
Any comments or thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: Easterntide on April 28, 2014, 06:18:50 PM
Just came in from a cold 1hr ride (+3c). Pulled into the garage and noticed a significant amount of fuel dripping out of each of the three drain hoses that are under the bike. Saw some in the wet driveway as well from where I pulled in and turned around.
This bike is new to me and I'm learning as I go but this is concerning.
Any comments or thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
My bike would leak fuel at times... I replaced the needle seat o-rings, all the o-rings in the fuel delivery and vent lines in the carbs and adjusted the float height to the proper level and my bike stopped leaking. If you are going into the carbs for any reason since the bike is new to you, clean everything and replace all the o-rings and best to replace all bolts with the allen head set from RPM. Do everything right with the carbs the first time and you won't have to pull them off the bike multiple times....
Quote from: Easterntide on April 28, 2014, 06:18:50 PM
Just came in from a cold 1hr ride (+3c). Pulled into the garage and noticed a significant amount of fuel dripping out of each of the three drain hoses that are under the bike. Saw some in the wet driveway as well from where I pulled in and turned around.
This bike is new to me and I'm learning as I go but this is concerning.
Any comments or thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Easterntide,
Check that the crankcase is not overfull of oil now. See if the oil filler (inlet) smells like gasoline in there. Do NOT attempt to start the engine, if so, because you could do serious damage to the engine. Working outside in the open air, siphon most of the gasoline out of the tank, into an extra gas can. Find the fuel line from the gas tank to the fuel filter, disconnect it, and plug the fuel line. Seal the gas cap, and store the empty gas tank someplace safe outside, under a rain shelter. The fuel pump
should block fuel flow when the key is OFF, and it is
not doing that now. There is more to know, but that much is important, right now.
Yeah, the carbs will need attention, as said earlier, and you may need a new fuel pump as well. For now, the gas in the tank can cause a serious problem. Drain the tank, and plug the fuel line. Store the tank safely outside. Check back when the carbs are done. You can use an aftermarket electric fuel pump (the OEM units cost a fortune), and people here know what you will need.
Red
Quote from: red on April 28, 2014, 08:51:50 PM
Quote from: Easterntide on April 28, 2014, 06:18:50 PM
Just came in from a cold 1hr ride (+3c). Pulled into the garage and noticed a significant amount of fuel dripping out of each of the three drain hoses that are under the bike. Saw some in the wet driveway as well from where I pulled in and turned around.
This bike is new to me and I'm learning as I go but this is concerning.
Any comments or thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
Easterntide,
Check that the crankcase is not overfull of oil now. See if the oil filler (inlet) smells like gasoline in there. Do NOT attempt to start the engine, if so, because you could do serious damage to the engine. Working outside in the open air, siphon most of the gasoline out of the tank, into an extra gas can. Find the fuel line from the gas tank to the fuel filter, disconnect it, and plug the fuel line. Seal the gas cap, and store the empty gas tank someplace safe outside, under a rain shelter. The fuel pump should block fuel flow when the key is OFF, and it is not doing that now. There is more to know, but that much is important, right now.
Yeah, the carbs will need attention, as said earlier, and you may need a new fuel pump as well. For now, the gas in the tank can cause a serious problem. Drain the tank, and plug the fuel line. Store the tank safely outside. Check back when the carbs are done. You can use an aftermarket electric fuel pump (the OEM units cost a fortune), and people here know what you will need.
Red
My fuel pump failed and drained 3 gallons of gas into the garage... take the above advice seriously.
well crap!
ok.
i'll order a new KL fuel pump for it today (http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-L-Supply-18-4615-Universal-Fuel-Pump-Point-Switch-Kit-/331113484768?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AYamaha (http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-L-Supply-18-4615-Universal-Fuel-Pump-Point-Switch-Kit-/331113484768?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AYamaha)|Model%3AFJ1200&hash=item4d17e6d1e0&vxp=mtr).
it was leaking very very gently from the petcock but i have a replacement coming in from RPM for that.
i've already had the tank off/on a few times so tonight i'll unbutton it and leave it sit.
so. i'll verify that the crankcase is not 'overfull' and that it smells like oil instead of fuel correct?
i've contacted a local guy to see if he can sort my carbs out.
else?
and thanks again!
Quote from: Easterntide on April 29, 2014, 07:50:58 AM
well crap!
ok.
i'll order a new KL fuel pump for it today (http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-L-Supply-18-4615-Universal-Fuel-Pump-Point-Switch-Kit-/331113484768?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AYamaha (http://www.ebay.com/itm/K-L-Supply-18-4615-Universal-Fuel-Pump-Point-Switch-Kit-/331113484768?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AYamaha)|Model%3AFJ1200&hash=item4d17e6d1e0&vxp=mtr).
it was leaking very very gently from the petcock but i have a replacement coming in from RPM for that.
i've already had the tank off/on a few times so tonight i'll unbutton it and leave it sit.
so. i'll verify that the crankcase is not 'overfull' and that it smells like oil instead of fuel correct?
i've contacted a local guy to see if he can sort my carbs out.
else?
and thanks again!
If your fuel pump check valve is not working the the points kit will not resolve the problem. The check valve is a mechanical disk inside the Mitsubishi pump. That can not be repaired.
I would first pull the carbs, inspect, clean or replace the needle and seats plus the O rings and adjust the floats. If your bike was leaking right after using it even if the pump was working correctly you bowls will still be pressurized a little and can leak until the pressure is reduced.
Depending how comfortable you are with the carbs there are some other things that you could do while they are off. Have you worked on carbs before?
Randy at RPM has a good selection of carb parts. http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24 (http://www.rpmracingca.com/products.asp?cat=24).
George
George et al,
Thanks for the input.
I've no carb experience at all. i've ordered a fistful of parts from RPM but until last night carbs/fuel leaks were not part of the equation. I don't want to but may end up taking it to the local yamaha shop and pay the exorbitant prices if i can't find a local carb guy (seems tough to do up in Atlantic Canada....).
is there a specific non OEM pump that is recommended (haven't done a search of the forum yet.).
Don
Yes there are other pumps that can be installed. They sometimes require slight modifications to fit.
But I would not buy a pump yet from what you describe. Fix the carbs first. They are not hard to work on but I don't know your situation or anything about how you feel about working on them. Do you have some basic tools and a space to work on them? Are you comfortable with it? On the internet it is hard to know what these answers. Like I said it isn't hard, it just takes time, desire, a few tools and some information.. Information we got plenty of.
George
well i've got a good chunk of tools but not sure whats specifically required. my garage has a nice workbench and some good lighting.
most of my work has been on bicycles (of all types and sorts) over the last 25 years. now being back into motor power its a new world for me. I'm about to do the petcock/filter/spin on oil filter and rear bmw shock mod (as soon as the parts arrive...).
wouldn't attempt shims/valves at this point however.
i'm a 47yr old carb virgin though :-)
fwiw i do hear the pump spin up when i turn the key, and once i had drained the tank and removed it, the pump worked for a bit to pull fuel out. i THINK its working as it should.
The fuel pump will run for around 5 seconds after you turn on the ignition switch. If CDI senses no crankshaft movement from the ignition pick up the pump will turn off. If the engine is cranking or running the pump will run as required. Just for familiarization the ignition pick up coil is located on the left side under the cover plate with "YAMAHA" engraved on it. That's just for information only...
Now back to the pump. One test is with the fuel tank at least 3/4 full, remove the fuel line on the output side of the pump, there will be some dribble. Clean it up and monitor for a hour or so to see if any fuel is leaking. With the power off of coarse..... And monitor.. Running a hose into a catch container isn't a bad idea. No smoking please :lol:
George
Quote from: Easterntide on April 29, 2014, 09:02:09 AMfwiw i do hear the pump spin up when i turn the key, and once i had drained the tank and removed it, the pump worked for a bit to pull fuel out. i THINK its working as it should.
Easterntide,
The fuel pump has
two jobs, both critical. With power applied, it should pump fuel, of course. With power off, it should stop fuel from siphoning out of the tank. You may just have some dirt in the fuel pump, which is causing the internal check valve to leak. Working outside again, have the fuel pump deliver a quart (liter) or two of gasoline from the tank into an extra gas can. Maybe this flowing gasoline will clean out the check valve, and let it seal again. If the fuel pump resumes blocking the flow of fuel when power is off (reliably), then the pump is okay again, and it just had some dirt in there. If the fuel pump dribbles gasoline constantly when the power is off, then you need a new fuel pump (even if it pumps fuel as you would expect).
The carbs are your second line of defense, here. In great condition, they can stop fuel from overfilling the float bowls, and then the engine, with gasoline. However, the first time the carbs
fail at stopping the fuel flow, you can have liquid gasoline getting into your cylinders, and into the crankcase. The gasoline in the oil will ruin the oil, of course, but that is a fairly minor matter, just needing an oil change. However, if a cylinder fills with gasoline, liquids do not compress. The starter will try to crank the engine, but the engine will be in a "hydraulic lock" and serious engine damage will result. That is why the smell of gasoline in the crankcase is bad news, there. With the tank off, you avoid this real risk, as well as the serious risk of dumping a lot of gasoline on the garage floor.
Fix the carbs, sure, and check the fuel pump for the ability to block fuel, when no power is applied. With good carbs and a good fuel pump, your bike will be golden again.
If you need a replacement fuel pump, the OEM fuel pump is expensive. The correct aftermarket automotive fuel pumps will do the job as well, for far less money.
Cheers,
Red
Don, be brave/smart & try it yourself. You'll learn a ton about how your FJ works and how to work on it too. No real exotic tools required, except perhaps an impact driver http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-reversible-impact-driver-set-93481.html (http://www.harborfreight.com/7-piece-reversible-impact-driver-set-93481.html) to get out the old shitty screws. You can also try the Acetone/ATF (50/50) penetrating oil on any stuck screws. When you order the screw kit from Randy, get some #40 pilot jets at the same time. You'll be real glad when you feel the dramatic improvement.
If you take to the local stealer,
A.) they will probably refuse to do the job 'cause your FJ is too old.
B.) They WILL charge you WAY TOO MUCH $$$.
C.) They WILL do a crappy job.
D.) They won't stand behind their work when it doesn't run as well as you expect.
IF you're gonna farm this job out, the only person I'd trust is RPM-Randy. Or someone on this list that has done the job and will help you.
My 2ยข
I am with ED on the issue. If you decide to do it then let us know. We can help you through the process. Check out the file section on carbs. There is some good reading there to get you started.
George
Don
Don't know what sort of service you receive in your part of the country but if you can afford to be without the bike for a couple of weeks I would send them to Randy he will clean them and replace all the need parts for a very modest fee and then mail them back, all you have to then is put them in and ride away no need to do a balance on them.
If you do the job yourself you will need to do a carbie balance as well as clean and replace all of the bits,
so easy drain wrap them up in something to protect them and post them simple!!!
First of all thanks to all who've replied w sincerely useful and positive comments. its nice to find a forum that actually is helpful and motivating!
Secondly, i found a local general motorcycle mechanic who came to my home the same night and tore the carbs out, reduced them one by one to bare bones, cleaned a good amount of dirt and skudge out and then rebuilt them...all w me sitting on his shoulder.
Two hours of effort/lots of patience putting the bits back together and showed and explained to me the whole time....for 50$.
we started it after and it ran. no fuel leaked (bike didn't get warmed up though).
tonight i'll take it for a proper ride and verify that it was in fact hopefully the solution.
also i'll grab some Seafoam and run that through as i'm sure it won't hurt.
after seeing his work i know that i can do what he did in a tear down and rebuild. some learn by doing, and others learn by watching...i'm in the later.
again, thanks.
Very good price for the carb cleaning and lesson, IMO. :i_am_so_happy:
Joe
Quote from: simi_ed on April 29, 2014, 01:51:16 PM
A.) they will probably refuse to do the job 'cause your FJ is too old.
B.) They WILL charge you WAY TOO MUCH $$$.
C.) They WILL do a crappy job.
D.) They won't stand behind their work when it doesn't run as well as you expect.
I was about to come to the defence of the much maligned mechanic, I know one, but it now seems they aren't all bad.
Quote from: Easterntide on April 30, 2014, 06:15:42 AM
Secondly, i found a local general motorcycle mechanic who came to my home the same night and tore the carbs out, reduced them one by one to bare bones, cleaned a good amount of dirt and skudge out and then rebuilt them...all w me sitting on his shoulder.
Two hours of effort/lots of patience putting the bits back together and showed and explained to me the whole time....for 50$.
Quote from: simi_ed on April 29, 2014, 01:51:16 PM
IF you're gonna farm this job out, the only person I'd trust is RPM-Randy.
There is no doubt Randy's the Man, but for goodness sake, the guy's in Ireland!
FJ carbies are not some sort of black art. Like all CV carbs, they are dead simple, with few parts and few adjustments and well within the scope of the mechanically challenged to pull apart, clean and tune with a little help from the forum.
Noel
Quote from: ribbert on April 30, 2014, 07:56:10 AM
There is no doubt Randy's the Man, but for goodness sake, the guy's in Ireland!
Noel
OK, I take it back,
this guy doesn't live in Ireland, but the message remains the same.
Noel
Noel, I didn't intend to slight you, nor the remaining handful of TRUE MECHANICS that are left in the MC industry. My general experience/impression is that the profession has generally degraded to mere parts changing primates. I have sees and heard of too many occasions where parts changers missed obvious problems and otherwise refuse to work on viable older machines, and/or doing shoddy work and then refusing to stand behind the work.
I didn't mean to include you in that subset Noel. Actually I was specifically looking to exclude you from that group by adding the caveat about folks that are here on this list and have successfully done the carb repair task. I further agree that this job is not black magic. But as you & I agree, it is truly a repair job and not just parts changing.
I learned by watching my father, who was an excellent paid mechanic for over 40 years, and was a sharp troubleshooter well into his 80s. I suspect that a great deal of the present parts changers will be retired to their video games and sports fantasy teams as soon as they possibly can, long before approaching either 40 years of service or 80 years of age. I rather suspect you are much more a TRUE MECHANICS in the mold of folks like my father. I appreciate folks you and my Dad.
I took my 86 in for a tune up and the techs. would not work on it. They did not know how to balance the carbs without being able to hook up to computer. I asked them if they knew what a carb looked like and only one of the three techs had ever had a carb apart. Needless to say, I took my bike home and did it myself. Big R
Quote from: big r on April 30, 2014, 03:08:53 PM
I took my 86 in for a tune up and the techs. would not work on it. They did not know how to balance the carbs without being able to hook up to computer. I asked them if they knew what a carb looked like and only one of the three techs had ever had a carb apart. Needless to say, I took my bike home and did it myself. Big R
"took my bike home and did it myself. Big R"
:good2:
George
what are drain hoses?
I just posted a thread on leaking fuel, fuel/oil mix, and maybe you could get me up to speed relatively quickly on basic schematics?
Quote from: simi_ed on April 30, 2014, 01:59:32 PM
Noel, I didn't intend to slight you.....
Yes Ed, I realise that and the reply was not personal, more a general response to an ongoing sentiment that is often expressed here. It just happened to be your post that prompted it.
On reflection though, you are right. Mechanics is not a trade guys usually stay with (not as salaried employees anyway) Almost any job offers better money, better conditions and better prospects.
So all that "old school" knowledge has mostly gone and the current generation of young mechanics, or parts replacers as you (and I) call them are a product of the machinery they started their working lives on.
There are still great mechanics out there but they are the exception rather than the rule these days.
Modern cars and bikes, and the ancillary systems that run them, are largely sealed for life units. Major component failure is a rare thing and unlikely to occur over the entire life of the vehicle. And if one does fail, no worries, just bung in a whole new whatever. A few years back, a family member had a Camry that developed a slight rattle in the motor at about 60,000kms. No worries, new long motor under warranty, $11,500 worth. I followed up, curious to know what they found. The answer, "no idea, it's sitting out the back on a crate"
The diagnostic skills are simply not required and therefore never learnt or developed, let alone honed. They simply don't have the opportunity.
As I write, my wife's D4D turbo diesel Prado is spending it's third night at the Toyota dealer with an engine power problem. They can't find it. I had a meeting today with the head mechanic, head technician and the service manager. The ideas (or clutching at straws) they were throwing around left me shaking my head in disbelief. The service manager was older but not a mechanic and the two others in their early thirties, only having ever worked at a Toyota dealership and rarely seeing cars any older than the warranty period.
Their eyes glazed over when the conversation strayed beyond what the computerised diagnostics were telling them. They virtually said, if the computer can't lead us to a fault, we can't fix it
So Ed, I think sadly, your last post was on the money and to those critical of mechanics these days, for the most part, you are right and I will no longer come to their defence.
Ed, I appreciate the courtesy or your PM, the act of a true gentleman.
Noel
Thanks. I guess I just ruined all the good will with that last PM though ...
So as to not to start a new thread; how does a person know if their carbs are out of synch without doing an analysis of them? backfires/performance/fuel consumption?
I'm ASSUMING mine are set properly but have no way to know without removal/testing.
- also- original fuel petcock seems to have been removed and then a new one (without any kind of shutoff) installed very poorly. original owner had put a longer non standard one on, had to extend the hole in the tank since the new one was longer center to center for its screws. then had epoxied a grommet into it to set the screw into. that grommet was not flush so it obviously would leak....so he goes ahead and puts some kind of slicone or goop all around the new bastardized petcock. regardless it still gently weeps fuel.
i ordered new kit from RPM and it took a full day to remove the existing now epoxied screws.
i have a local shop that seems capable and willing (multi radiator) to help a poor sap out. they will clean up the existing mess/shape and weld a new piece of aluminum to the existing tank (of course getting fuel vapor out first) and set new threads for me to allow a proper flush mounted petcock with shutoff to be mounted high and dry.
sigh.
many things you don't know until you need to know. its just nice that people are willing to help others out :-)
Easterntide said, "So as to not to start a new thread; how does a person know if their carbs are out of synch without doing an analysis of them? backfires/performance/fuel consumption?
I'm ASSUMING mine are set properly but have no way to know without removal/testing."
No problem with starting a new thread, doesn't cost any extra. :-)
How do you know if your carbs are out of synch?
Well, the only way to KNOW, is to connect them to a mannometer. The slight degredation of performance and increase in vibration is so gradual that you probably won't feel it as it deteriorates.
I just re-balance my carbs whenever I have the tank off for any reason.
It is so quick and easy to do, that it doesn't make sense not to.
Using something like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Synchronizer-4-Cylinder-Carb-Sync-Tool-Gauge-Gauges-3804-0005-/271251462796 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Synchronizer-4-Cylinder-Carb-Sync-Tool-Gauge-Gauges-3804-0005-/271251462796)
Quote from: Easterntide on May 07, 2014, 07:34:59 AM
Using something like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Synchronizer-4-Cylinder-Carb-Sync-Tool-Gauge-Gauges-3804-0005-/271251462796 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-Synchronizer-4-Cylinder-Carb-Sync-Tool-Gauge-Gauges-3804-0005-/271251462796)
Easterntide,
Or this:
http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0411-Syncpro-Carburetor/dp/B000K7JHWA (http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Pro-08-0411-Syncpro-Carburetor/dp/B000K7JHWA)
Cheers,
Red
Or this.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/2/1651_23_07_11_9_15_38.jpeg)
Lots of options. From almost free to $$$.
George
since i've no idea how to actually balance carbs, i'm just guessing here...
for this device, the pressure from 2 of the carbs, if equal, balances the coloured fluid (water) in the tube?
if so that's silly simple.
but do you balance 2, then the next two then the final two by sliding over one carb at a time?
cool stuff.
Don
Quote from: Easterntide on May 08, 2014, 06:24:55 AM
since i've no idea how to actually balance carbs, i'm just guessing here...
for this device, the pressure from 2 of the carbs, if equal, balances the coloured fluid (water) in the tube?
if so that's silly simple.
but do you balance 2, then the next two then the final two by sliding over one carb at a time?
cool stuff.
Don
The way the carbs are connected controls how we balance them. Fist balance carbs (1 & 2) or (3 & 4) first, does not matter which set goes first, they just need to match each other. Then balance the other set. Then the middle adjustment screw will balance the two sets to eachother.
Quote from: FJmonkey on May 08, 2014, 09:33:31 AM
Quote from: Easterntide on May 08, 2014, 06:24:55 AM
since i've no idea how to actually balance carbs, i'm just guessing here...
for this device, the pressure from 2 of the carbs, if equal, balances the coloured fluid (water) in the tube?
if so that's silly simple.
but do you balance 2, then the next two then the final two by sliding over one carb at a time?
cool stuff.
Don
The way the carbs are connected controls how we balance them. Fist balance carbs (1 & 2) or (3 & 4) first, does not matter which set goes first, they just need to match each other. Then balance the other set. Then the middle adjustment screw will balance the two sets to eachother.
There was a photo here recently of a 2 carb at a time balancer. The job is much easier 4 gauges, or if home made, 4 tubes and yes, you have grasped the principle and yes, it is silly simple.
Noel
Quote from: Easterntide on May 08, 2014, 06:24:55 AM
since i've no idea how to actually balance carbs, i'm just guessing here...
for this device, the pressure from 2 of the carbs, if equal, balances the coloured fluid (water) in the tube?
if so that's silly simple.
but do you balance 2, then the next two then the final two by sliding over one carb at a time?
cool stuff.
Don
As FJmonkey explained. Carb 1 to 2 and then 3 to 4 then 1,2 bank to the 3,4 bank. Yes, all they do is measure the vacuum differential between the carbs. My home made one I use two cycle oil for fluid. Those cylinder numbers are looking down at your engine left to right. Vacuum ports are on top of your intake manifolds. In back (engine side) of your carbs down lower you will see 3 larger adjustment screws, those are you balancing screws.
If you are going to make your own then go here and read the two comments below the picture.
http://fjowners.com/gallery/2/1651_23_07_11_9_15_38.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/2/1651_23_07_11_9_15_38.jpeg)
You Tube has a bunch of video's of different methods and "how to do" the basics are the same.
George
Again, thanks for the sincerely helpful responses.
Returning to the motorized side of 2 wheel motion after 25 yrs on bicycles has been a welcome shift. You cats are horrible though, seems moditus has hit hard and now i can't stop thinking of updates. Fortunately my skills and my budget are both woefully inadequate for any where near what i'm seeing others on here doing.
So for a while it'll hold at SS lines/blue dots/new master cylinders/rpm spin ons'/and a new to me bmw shock.
for a while....