Hi:
I'm prepping my '85 for an upcoming high-mileage holiday weekend. Due to my voltmeter showing 14.9V above ~4K RPM, and not wanting to fry my new battery I just purchased, I decided to do the Transpo IB301A voltage regulator upgrade. Read through the reference materials for its install, and it look straight forward. After I removed the generator cover, I found that one of the four bare leads (the one closest to the red insulated wire) has appeared to have gotten hot, and has melted/broken from its solder tab.
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_25_08_13_1_24_06.jpeg)
Has anyone seen this before? Is it a symptom of some other issue that needs to be addressed, or can the bare lead simply be re-soldered to its tab, then install the new voltage regulator, and all's good?
For information purposes, I had previously replaced the two-pin connector between the main harness and two (red and brown) generator's wires (old connector was half melted and fused together), and the OEM regulator was governing the voltage all right with the exception of the 14.9V that seemed to happen after I installed the new battery.
Thanks in advance.
Marty
Hello:
Used the Files section to install the Transpo Voltage Regulator after deeming the OEM one puked. Found a place for it under the rear fender cover/cowl, and mounted it using a crudely fashioned bracket out of 1.5" X 1.5" X 0.125" angle aluminum. \
Mounted the bracket with a couple of M6 fasteners, putting them through a couple of existing holes in the rear subframe's rear lateral brace, and used large OD flat washers and hex nuts with Loktite to secure.
Marty
Transpo Install Pic - Top View
http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_44_15.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_44_15.jpeg)
Transpo Install Pic - Side View
http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_50_08.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_50_08.jpeg)
Transpo Install Pic - Rear View
http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_45_07.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_45_07.jpeg)
Hi,
Thanks for putting this up. Could you please let us know exactly which regulator and source. I can see by boiling batteries that this is not uncommon.
Thanks again,
Jeff
Nice :good2: what do those things sell for? fixed voltage?
Hi:
Thanks. I installed it prior to my 1,100 mile weekend, and it worked fine. The voltage never went above 14.4V, even at triple digit speeds, and I never touched the adjustment on it prior to its install.
The model number that I purchased was Transpo (Bosch) IB301A, and it is adjustable. There is another that is non-adjustable (set to 14.3V), and its Transpo (Bosch) part number is IB303.
I purchased two of the one that I installed for $51. Delivered. I purchased them from Alternater and Starter Parts Wholesale.
http://www.aspwholesale.com (http://www.aspwholesale.com)
Marty
Man, that is quite a lot of work, and requires running the wiring externally of the alternator.
The adjustable regulator is also prone to failure as the adjusting dial switch is not water tight and moisture can create problems.
Here is the RPM/ES internal regulator that requires no external wiring, only the removal of the O.E regulator and bolting the new one in.
RPM/ES ND Internal Regulator (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Electrical%3ARegulator)
Randy - RPM
sold :good: next order. Jeff
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 03, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
Man, that is quite a lot of work, and requires running the wiring externally of the alternator.
Quite a lot of work, not really. I have to disagree with your statement. Quite a lot of work in my opinion is:
1. Removal and installation of the carbs with the stock airbox.
2. Checking and adjusting the valve clearances.
3. Removal, disassembly, cleaning, installation of new seals (maybe bushings too), and complete reassembly of the front forks.
4. Removal of wheels, installing and balancing your own tires, and reassembly of the wheels back onto the bike.
5. Grafting of USD forks to the bike.
6. Insertion of your favorite Rite of Passage to FJ ownership task/project, goes here.
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 03, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
The adjustable regulator is also prone to failure as the adjusting dial switch is not water tight and moisture can create problems.
What do you base this statement upon? Using Google and the search engine on this site, I could not find anyone stating a failure (who on this site, installed this particular voltage regulator), and this, going back a good number of years. It would be interesting to hear from others on this site who installed the Bosch IB301A, and had a failure, and their reasons or opinions for its failure.
I found one statement on a BMW Owners Group forum http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?68612-Gen-light-on-WTF (ftp://http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?68612-Gen-light-on-WTF) regarding one failure by a poster named "beemerPhil". However, he goes on to state: "I've installed quite a few of these, and seen only one failure over many years-". I could not find any other references online to failure where this particular voltage regulator appears to be used with success in a number of similar, but non-FJ applications.
The location where I placed my installation, and as anyone else who has been in this area already knows, is pretty much immune from water splash, and is about as dry as a popcorn fart, so I'm pretty confident of not worrying about water ingress, at least from leakage due to wash down or splashing.
If susceptibility to moisture is of major concern or worry, the non-adjustable version (Bosch IB303) could be used.
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 03, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
the RPM/ES internal regulator that requires no external wiring, only the removal of the O.E regulator and bolting the new one in.
Agreed.
The needs for external wiring and the hand-fabricated bracket for the Transpo voltage regulator installation was not all that hard or complex.
I'll venture to say that anyone who has purchased old used bikes for a good price, and that are in need of much TLC to get sorted out, has the wherewithal, tools and abilities to do the Transpo installation. I have acquired the necessary skills, tools, supplies for doing wiring (like many here), and have done many of the popular electrical accessories installs, and electrical modifications on the FJ's, and other bikes. Running 30" of wiring, snipping a couple of existing wires, and applying the appropriate connectors properly, was easy peasy compared to the other electrical work that was done.
In regards to resurrecting old bikes, and to others such as myself who take some pride and satisfaction in doing so, there's is always hard work and a lot of head scratching involved, so we're used to it. Like others who suffer from this, we are also keen to our budgets for doing this, and strive to save money where we can so that we can better finance other needed repair and restore areas of our project(s). The RPM/ES internal voltage regulator is a great solution to a failed OEM one, but comes at a premium when compared to the price of a Transpo external voltage regulator ($78.99 vs. $19.86). The cost savings realized by doing the Transpo mod, allows me (and others if pursued) to purchase other items while holding a budget, such as I have done from RPM in the past, and will do so in the near future (please see my reply to my "Annoying Oil Leak post).
Regards,
Marty
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 04, 2013, 04:38:06 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 03, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
Man, that is quite a lot of work, and requires running the wiring externally of the alternator.
Quite a lot of work, not really. I have to disagree with your statement....
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 03, 2013, 06:24:47 PM
The adjustable regulator is also prone to failure as the adjusting dial switch is not water tight and moisture can create problems.
What do you base this statement upon?
Marty
Marty,
I am glad you found the upgrade easy and I understand your position and not agreeing with my statement. I am glad you found a good dry place for your regulator and I believe it will work well for you. Based on your documented skill set, you found that modification easy but there and many out there that cannot easily do what you did.
I personally would not find the job you did or any other jobs you listed difficult, but with my skill set I do all of the them regularly, with the exclusion of #6...
As far as the concern of the regulator, I have personally seen two bikes with that regulator installed and one is here at the shop now. That one works fine and the other bike that had one had failed. I will say that the one that failed was mounted with the adjustable switch pointing up and could easily hold water. The other issue is that both of the other regulators are mounted down low below the side panel towards the rear tire. One of the bikes is seldomly ridden in the rain and is mounted with the adjustment knob vertically.
Since you mounted yours upside down I can't see an issue with water ever being able to penetrate the switch. I hope there is never a time where the terminals get hot enough to lose the spring tension resulting is a loose connection with high resistance and completely falling off.
So, based on my experience that regulator you used is 50/50. Sure the mounting had much to do with the failure, but the RPM/ES regulator was installed as a replacement; it works perfectly and no maintenance/adjustment or worry of water is present.
So far to date my success rate of the RPM/ES regulators is 100% with the 57 sold or installed by RPM to date.
Randy - RPM
Over the years I have gone thru 2 internal regulators on my '84, and when the second one failed and smoked my Westco AGM :diablo: I wanted to try something different.
I decided to use the external Transpo because I have the opinion (right or wrong) that the root cause of failure of the internal regulators was due to long term exposure to engine heat and excessive vibration.
The location I chose under the right side panel, removed these stresses from the regulator.
Yes, you do want to install the Transpo is such a way that it does not pool water. The wiring is no big deal.
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 04, 2013, 10:08:40 PM
Over the years I have gone thru 2 internal regulators on my '84...
Stock regulators or RPM/ES style regulators?
(I know they aren't mine because that was before I was around or selling them)
Randy - RPM
I'm going by memory, but I dealt with my stock regulator boiling my battery dry (intermittently) for about 10 years, then in the mid 90's I retrofitted a Kawasaki (internal) regulator which worked for about another 10 years, then after the Westco incident $$ (fuck, that still pisses me off) I went with the Transpo in 2005.
The office worker shouts out his window to the guy falling....."How are you doing?"
The guy replies "So far, so good..."
Randy and Pat:
Thank you both for your feedback and observations regarding the Transpo voltage regulator. From the information that you've provided, it appears that both the Transpo and the RPM/ES voltage regulators are viable alternatives to a failed OEM VR, with the selection of either alternative governed by a number of factors, which seemed to be explored and exhausted now. The reader and potential installer just needs filter through all of the above to reach their conclusions and make their decision.
When it comes to the concern of the connectors getting hot on the Transpo, suffering heat stress and falling off, I'm not sure that will happen. The ones on my install showed no sign off this. And this was after the installations maiden voyage, that entailed a lot of long distance, high speed riding. My best guess would be nearly a 1,000 miles of it, broken down into intervals of +200 miles. I'm no charging system guru, nor do I have a complete unnderstanding of each component's design, but I believe that it is the rectifier and not the voltage regulator that is the charging system's component that gets hot.
When it comes to connectors and connections, I think that much of their success in usage is using the correct one and size for the job, the quality of the connector itself, proper preparation for its install, and of course, proper/correct installation of the connector with proper/correct quality tools.
In closing, I would like to thank all who contributed to this posting and have found it hopeful.
Marty
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 05, 2013, 07:59:47 AM
When it comes to connectors and connections, I think that much of their success in usage is using the correct one and size for the job, the quality of the connector itself, proper preparation for its install, and of course, proper/correct installation of the connector with proper/correct quality tools.
Marty
There are no truer words spoken; the proper quality and correct product installed correct will always win over cheap & improper applications.
Randy - RPM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 05, 2013, 07:59:47 AM
I'm no charging system guru, nor do I have a complete unnderstanding of each component's design, but I believe that it is the rectifier and not the voltage regulator that is the charging system's component that gets hot.
When it comes to connectors and connections, I think that much of their success in usage is using the correct one and size for the job, the quality of the connector itself, proper preparation for its install, and of course, proper/correct installation of the connector with proper/correct quality tools.
Marty
As an electronics Tech, for the past 30 years, I can state unequivocally that BOTH components get hot.... As far as the connectors and connections, the liberal use of dielectric grease will help prevent the connectors from becoming resistive, which is what causes them to get hot.
I'm not a big fan of soldered connections in a high vibration environment, the wires tend to break at the solder joint.... Usually not a concern with the soldered connections at the stock VR/rect.
Rich, do you have a theory on the cause of failures on our VRs?
Most likely cause is overheating.... I haven't had mine fail, yet, and haven't seen any that did fail, personally, but overheating is atypical failure mode. Without cutting one open, and looking inside with a good microscope, no way to be sure.
Well that would make sense for the reason I would test mine in my garage and it would be fine at ~14.4 volts only to get on the open road, with a thoroughly heat soaked engine, and have it jump up to 15.4 and higher, boiling the battery.
Bring the bike home. Fill up the battery. Test the output the next day and it's back at 14.4.
It's only when I put my multi tester in my tank bag did I figure it out....the symptoms were there (boiled battery) I just could not pin it down.
Quote from: RichBaker on September 05, 2013, 07:25:32 PM
As an electronics Tech, for the past 30 years, I can state unequivocally that BOTH components get hot....
For the record...
Rode the bike for hours today.
Pulled in the drive, popped the seat, shoved my hand up under the rear cowl to feel the VR, and at the ready to jerk my hand back. Surprise! Not even warm. Connectors, nor the VR's terminals either.
Ambient temp: 85F
Marty
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 05, 2013, 08:01:47 PM
Well that would make sense for the reason I would test mine in my garage and it would be fine at ~14.4 volts only to get on the open road, with a thoroughly heat soaked engine, and have it jump up to 15.4 and higher, boiling the battery.
Bring the bike home. Fill up the battery. Test the output the next day and it's back at 14.4.
It's only when I put my multi tester in my tank bag did I figure it out....the symptoms were there (boiled battery) I just could not pin it down.
Nice to mount an small digital voltmeter in the bike. http://www.ebay.com/itm/K1BO-Waterproof-DC-2-5-30V-Red-LED-Panel-Meter-DC-Digital-Voltmeter-Two-wire-/261280415232 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/K1BO-Waterproof-DC-2-5-30V-Red-LED-Panel-Meter-DC-Digital-Voltmeter-Two-wire-/261280415232). Hey for 3 bucks....
George
Yep, I agree George. I think I have solved the overcharging problem with the Transpo, but....a voltage gauge would be handy in case the charging system failed.
A quick look and it would tell me it's time to pull the headlight fuse.
Good day to all of you. Sorry for reviving this old discussion :smile: .
My fzr1000 has the same alternator as the fj. I've installed the transpo ib301a because the original voltage reg charging rate is at 15+ volts. The wiring and connectors have been checked. Not melted.
I'm stumped because with the transpo, now it's not charging at all. Do I have to ground the vr body to the frame so the it will charge?
I really appreciate any advise on this.
Yes, grounding the body/frame is REQUIRED!
Thank you so much. I'll ground the vr body to the bike frame and recheck.
Tried grounding the voltage regulator body to the bike but it's still not charging. Tried the old vr and it's charging at 15v. Well.. I think the transpo is faulty.
After reading through all this I started worrying even though I've never had a charging problem in the ten years I've owned my 84. At 3000 rpm it showed 14.5 to 14.6 and at 4000 it showed almost 14.9. I then checked the old Clymer service manual I got with the bike when I bought it from the original owner. It says to check at 3000rpm and anything between 14.3 and 15.3 is OK.
Quote from: fjbiker84 on May 23, 2016, 07:07:13 PM
After reading through all this I started worrying even though I've never had a charging problem in the ten years I've owned my 84. At 3000 rpm it showed 14.5 to 14.6 and at 4000 it showed almost 14.9. I then checked the old Clymer service manual I got with the bike when I bought it from the original owner. It says to check at 3000rpm and anything between 14.3 and 15.3 is OK.
That's the issue. What was good then, is not so good now. Kinda like brakes and tires.
In the old days our batteries were lead acid. They can (kinda) tolerate 15+ volts (if you keep adding water)
15.3 volts will absolutely smoke an AGM. (Don't ask $$) Forget about a Lithium.
That's good to know. Was considering a lithium battery. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 05, 2013, 09:32:33 AM
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 05, 2013, 07:59:47 AM
When it comes to connectors and connections, I think that much of their success in usage is using the correct one and size for the job, the quality of the connector itself, proper preparation for its install, and of course, proper/correct installation of the connector with proper/correct quality tools.
Marty
There are no truer words spoken; the proper quality and correct product installed correct will always win over cheap & improper applications.
Randy - RPM
He said,,,, "I just put this new rectifier in but my battery is still going flat"
Simon
Hey All,
I'm new to this site. I have a '85 FJ1100 that just started giving me electrical problems. I came across this mod thread after reading through all the great info on this site. Thanks very much to all.
One question does pop into my head after reading this and "Install of Aftermarket Rectifier in Remote Location" http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10493.0. (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10493.0.) My thought is: why not just install a single unit aftermarket regulator/rectifier as seen on newer bikes? Is that not possible? I attached a pic of the type of unit I am referring to. Sorry if this was covered elsewhere and I missed it.
Thanks again,
Mike
Hey Mike, sure, if you need both a new rectifier and voltage regulator, I don't see why not...
1) If the unit is compatible with our FJ's and 2) You have the space to fit?
How much does it cost? Is it adjustable? (Transpo IB301A is $37)
Do you have any specs on the unit?
Most often, just a Voltage Regulator is all that is needed.
Marty's case is the only one I know where his rectifier also went south.
Cheers Pat
Hi Pat
Thanks for the fast reply. Good questions. My original rectifier seems to be functioning correctly after performing the resistance testing outlined in the Clymer manual. My logic in replacing the two separate rectifier and regulator units with a dual rectifier/regulator unit is due to cost and availability. Seems aftermarket motorcycle rectifier/regulator units are almost literally a dime a dozen and are therefor readily available. As far as the specs are concerned, I can't seem to find specific specs on the OEM Nippon Denso generator unit aside the stator resistance of .2 ohms, let alone the new rectifier/regulator units. However, from what I've read, the functionality of a motorcycle stator/rectifier/regulator seems to be relatively universal, which might account for the sea of cheap aftermarket parts out there, and why Marty was able to use a Volvo car regulator and a handmade universal rectifier built by a guy in Oregon.
So, I went through the yamahapartshouse.com site and viewed all the liter-class bikes from '85 on until I found a bike that used a rectifier/regulator unit instead of the Nippon Denso generator unit in the '85 FJ1100. Looks like Yamaha used the Nippon Denso generator assembly through 1997 and switched over to an external rectifier/regulator in the '98 R1. So I grabbed that part number and googled it. It appears that's a six pin unit. Then I found rectifier/regulator 5KP-81960-00-00 for '02 FZ1. Googled that and mostly ebay links came up. The prices for used and new wildly vary, which leads to the fact that the auto industry uses different part numbers for the exact same units in order to rip the customer for more money knowing that most people will think "I need that exact part number or it won't work". Ebay offers suggestions and this came up: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322819343596 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/322819343596) advertised for YAMAHA YZFR1 R1. Specs are full wave, 14.5V, and 1W power. $12.
It can be mounted anywhere. Seems newer bikes mount the unit in the front by the horn.
Despite my love for the FJ, it has it's problems being a 33 year old machine, and I don't want to burn through expensive parts (Rick's or Nippon Denso ESR025 internal regulators), or spend a dime more than I have to, as the issue may reoccur. One other thing I'm worried about: a statement in the description for the Rick's regulator "* Before replacing this Regulator please check the OHMs reading on your rotor; a reading of 3.5 - 4.5 OHMs is required. Without sufficient resistence, failure will result & the warranty will be void.". That statement is listed for the Nippon Denso internal unit as well. Clymer lists the resistance as 4.0 +-5% ohms. How do I test the resistance of the generator field rotor? I don't think that process is listed in the manual as I didn't see it.
I hope that logic makes sense to you as well. I am new to all of this. Please let me know what you guys think.
Thanks
Mike
Don't over complicate it, if your rectifier is ok, leave it alone. Install the Transpo, adjust the output to 14.4 volts and call it a day.
We know the Transpo works, and tucks away nicely under the FJ's side panel.
If cost is a concern, here is a China knock off of the Transpo IB301a for $23 on Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/HEAVY-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-ADJUSTABLE-FEATURE/dp/B014GN1YLK (https://www.amazon.com/HEAVY-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-ADJUSTABLE-FEATURE/dp/B014GN1YLK)
First, I'd like to say: "Do what Pat is suggesting." It has worked for him and others for MANY years.
However, I think you might be onto something. But I think you're going to have to dig a little deeper.
If there are any electrical purists out there, please forgive me as I'm probably not going to be totally correct in my description. That said:
The OEM FJ is an alternator-type charging device which regulates the voltage output using a voltage feedback signal to the field generator in the alternator.
The device you are showing is used with a 3-phase shunt-type generator. Voltage output of the rotor/stator is not regulated (although it does vary with engine speed). The regulator takes everything the rotor/stator is putting out and decides how much goes to the battery then dumps the rest of the output as heat. Consequently, these units tend to run HOT and need to be mounted in a location that provides adequate cooling (usually near the front of the bike). There is a Mosfet device which can be used in place of the shunt-type that runs MUCH cooler (see EasternBeaver.com for conversion/wiring advice, I did this conversion on my '02 FZ1).
I'm just guessing here but if you want to use a shunt or Mosfet rectifier/regulator on the output of the OEM FJ alternator you PROBABLY (again, not 100% sure) want the full output of the 3-phase and rewire those connections directly to the new R/R. This would mean disabling or bypassing the OEM FJ rectifying and regulating functions. Going directly to the 3-phase output wires SHOULD effectively bypass ANY OEM signal conditioning.
You would probably want to disconnect the alternator field sense feedback wire just in case. Doing this would make the OEM try to output the maximum voltage. I do not know if this feedback is applied to the output of the 3-phase voltages or the output of the rectified voltage.
DISCLAIMER: DOING ANY OF THE ABOVE WITHOUT CONFIRMING FIRST COULD CAUSE YOU TO FRY THE ELECTRICAL SYSTEM OF YOUR FJ!
I am simply trying to pass on knowledge that I gained from converting my FZ1.
I have had the RPM internal regulator installed in 2 FJs for several years now with no problems in the hot Texas weather.
Your best bet is to do more research before pursuing this.
Quote from: FJ1100mjk on September 03, 2013, 05:16:09 PM
Hello:
Used the Files section to install the Transpo Voltage Regulator after deeming the OEM one puked. Found a place for it under the rear fender cover/cowl, and mounted it using a crudely fashioned bracket out of 1.5" X 1.5" X 0.125" angle aluminum. \
Mounted the bracket with a couple of M6 fasteners, putting them through a couple of existing holes in the rear subframe's rear lateral brace, and used large OD flat washers and hex nuts with Loktite to secure.
Marty
Transpo Install Pic - Top View
http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_44_15.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_44_15.jpeg)
Transpo Install Pic - Side View
http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_50_08.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_50_08.jpeg)
Transpo Install Pic - Rear View
http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_45_07.jpeg (http://fjowners.com/gallery/5/1388_03_09_13_3_45_07.jpeg)
Thanks for the replies guys. I appreciate the input. I understand how a rectifier/regulator functions, which is why I asked about rewiring the bike to fit the standard/cheap aftermarket part. I also mentioned wiring the unit to the front of the bike near the horn to maximize air cooling.
Hi Marty
I searched around in the files section, but could not find the transpo installation files you mentioned. I probably just missed it. Could you please post a link?
Thanks
Mike
Here ya go:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0)
Quote from: Pat Conlon on July 06, 2018, 11:32:08 AM
Here ya go:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=661.0)
Great thanks!
The search tool: Works very well.
Thanks Pat!