Seems a bit slow, so how about a bit of Harley bashing?

[Dan Filetti]

To Pat's point, what happens when Harley tries to update it's engineering (by stealing an engine platform Eric Buell had contracted Porsche to build)? They produce the V-Rod/ Street-Rod/ Night-Rod bikes with all of their splendid fuel injection, liquid cooling, overhead cam, desirable HP to displacement #'s (with mild tuning), and the Luddites within the Harley community universally pan it! They turn their noses up to it as if it's too much like "Jap Crap". Amazing. I rented a Street-Rod and road it for ~3,000 miles in 6 days. While it suffered from some of the same backwards engineering that other Harley's do, it was actually a pretty decent bike to ride. Yet this is the Harley, of all of them, it seems, that's 'not worthy'.

Here's the crazy thing. In my mind, Harley owes it's very existence to the Japanese. Harley's don't really change, 'tried and true' are the words they use. (Side note, I have a Beta-Max that is also tried and true technology....). In the dark years, immediately after Harley had been owned (and nearly destroyed) by AMF, there were serious discussions underway to retire the brand. Japanese UJM's were being imported in spades and it was becoming obvious that; 1) the Japanese bikes were orders of magnitudes less expensive, and 2) they were not the 'junk' that the Haley guys would have had you believe. (remember: you meet the nicest people on a Honda?) You may not agree with #2 there, but the sales figures, and company/ congressional reaction to these, do not lie. Harley had been steadily losing market share to the imports, mostly Japanese, for quite a while. The down-ward spiral was crystal clear.  Harley remained in business simply because motorcycle sales were up in general -why?  Because of the Japanese!

So what happened next -do you remember? In 1983 Harley successfully lobbied congress to impose displacement-based tariffs (45% for the big ones!). They had been trying to cheat the system in this way for a long time. In fact, the Brits were hurting their sales in the early 50's and Harley got in real trouble for pushing for a 40% tariff. Anyway, in 1983, not to be dissuaded from past sins, Harley lobbyists managed to successfully secure steep 600CC, 750CC, 1000CC progressive tariffs with an eye on explicitly slowing the Japanese down. (It's for THIS reason that since ~1985 through to today, 599CC, and 749CC, and 999 or 998CC are common import motorcycle displacements...) So the Japanese were not slowed down much, but it was enough. Harley did not change their bikes, but what they did change, was their IMAGE and the IMAGE of their bikes. It was at this point that it became about marketing, at the expense of motorcycle engineering and it has been ever since.

Harley had a real chance to be about the bikes again with Eric Buell, but they failed miserably, mostly because Eric stupidly trusted Harley and their shark attorneys too much.  Eric had actually assumed that Harley was about building bikes, as he was/ is, and when it became about the bean counters, and Harley had a bad couple of quarters, the Buell division was simply "unnecessary fat".  That one single decision shows you all you need to know about how much Harley values R&D.  As a company, I have little respect for them.  Their riders have largely adopted the affect of that tough/ independent/ loaner that Harley makes it's branding about (yet 82%!).  It's made the riders, in large part, dicks.  There are exceptions, but all too many Harley guys fail to see it's about BIKING and fellowship, in the context of a larger community.  Many Harley guys I know are just plain snobs, they actually believe their bikes and they, are fundamentally better.  For me that's tough to swallow.  James, you seem to me to be an exception to this.


Dan

[56 CHEVY]

Well said Dan.

[ribbert]

"Parts are always fallen off Harley's", I have had many and have never had any part fall off, 

I strongly disagree, I worked at a Honda / Harley dealership in early 80's. It is also where I fine honed my welding skills!

Noel

[Dan Filetti]

"Parts are always fallen off Harley's", I have had many and have never had any part fall off,  

I strongly disagree, I worked at a Honda / Harley dealership in early 80's. It is also where I fine honed my welding skills!

Noel

In fairness Noel, the AMF Harley's -from around that service vintage, were particularly bad incarnations of HD motorcycles.  Of all of them that may be prone to shit falling off, the AMF versions would be among the top of the list.  

Dan

[fintip]

OK! I'll Bite, The only reason I can come up with, with the Harley bashing, is?,  You cant handle bikes this size at high speeds, Plus on the investment side of this, a Harley is a better chose, Holds there value better than most, It's also a different life style, For me, Riding 80-90 MPH, swerving in and out around other vehicles is just stupid, When I was younger, I thought going fast was cool, But then I grew up and became an adult, I've heard others on this forum say, "Parts are always fallen off Harley's", I have had many and have never had any part fall off, 

The reason for the Harley bashing is, for the most part, two fold:

1. Many, though not all, Harley riders are elitist assholes.

Many of them have a lot of money to spend on image, but don't have anything behind it; they're THE quintessential posers. And then they look down on everyone else?

What's not to hate?

2. The Harley brand is a marketing brand; they are not designing interesting machines from an engineering standpoint. They focus almost exclusively on looks and ergonomics–as in LA-Z BOY ergonomics. Their machines are passionless, and are merely a step up from being a couch potato.

The brand has no soul. It's all been sold out.

And riders that fall for that? Of course they immediately lose respect from the motorcycling community. No one likes Harley riders except for people who know nothing about bikes, and other Harley riders.

As far as smart money, if you want to 'invest' and get a return of any kind, a Harley is not the way to do it. Count in maintenance and insurance costs, and even before those you'll probably lose several thousand dollars if you sell it in 5 years.

An FJ? Buy an 'investment' FJ for under 1000, have FUN fixing it, get years of enjoyment out odfit, and sell it at a small profit. Even a total loss FJ will not lose you as much as your 'investment' Harley, you're deluding yourself.

Further, hop on your local craigslist and find some pristine 5 year old CBR's or Hayabusas, and I think you'll be surprised by how much value they hold, when well maintained.

But really, if my argument for 'why buy X bike' rests on 'well, it's a wiser choice for pragmatic reason y', then i've entirely missed the point of owning a motorcycle. Nothing could do better to underscore the lack of passion in a decision making process then to make it about 'wise investing'.

As someone on here once said (Noel?), if you don't have to turn around and look at it every time you walk away, you got the wrong one.

[andyb]

90% of Harley riders are morons.

Probably more like 98%, but anyhow.

Harleys aren't necessarily bad bikes.  That said, if anyone owns a Harley and won't ride it in the rain (excluding true classics, etc), odds are they're a 'lifestyle' biker rather than a motorcyclist.  And 'lifestyle' bikers are morons, no matter if they're on Harley iron, Ducati, GSXR, or whatever.

My usual rule, in IL, is that I'll wave to anyone who rides with a helmet (which are optional), and I'll wave to anyone who rides in the rain.  If they ride in the hail, I'll wince along with them!  I don't give a shit what you ride, I give a shit about WHY you ride it.

[Klavdy]

Here's the original rant by Christopher Shields over at American Angst
It's quite a long one.
Extract below.

What image comes to mind when you think Harley?

Power? Nope. Handling? Nope. Well educated owner? Nope. Member of society riding it? Nope. See one parked outside the Country Club? Nope. See a Harley on the race track? Nope.
These are the images that come to mind when I think of a Harley: Redneck, trailer park, cheap beer, truck stops, bad country music, pickup trucks, tattoos up one arm and down the other, leather wallet on a chain, Rottweilers as pets, German W.W.II helmet with the spike on top, murals on the tank, trailer parks, Grim Reaper, uncut beard, Hell's Angels, Nazis, smoke filled bars, knife hidden in the boot, American flag bandanna, huge belt buckle, leather saddlebags, tassels, wannabe rider. Everything that motorcycles are not supposed to stand for.

Does anything positive come to mind when I think of a Harley? Uh.... Hold on, I'm thinking. I'm really trying to be fair...

No.

The target buyer for Harley Davidson, if I read their ads correctly, are male overweight, middle aged, sexually repressed ex-cons with an abundance of tattoos, body and facial hair, and odious personal habits. They also tend to have a severe leather fetish with a passion for chains, tassels, and metal studs.

[FJ_Hooligan]

Okay, I know this has been posted several times, but I think it tells the story best. 
Bad Brad is the perfect stereotypical "new" Harley owner.

Bad Boy Brad Gets A New Bike

[Travis398]

There are cool Harley riders................


I must confess I have often thought it would be cool to own one too................

[Klavdy]

Course there are, it's uncommon though.

[FJ_Hooligan]

The flat trackers are cool bikes and I love the racing.  I sat next to Chris Carr at a supermoto race once!

However, those bikes are to a Harley what the V&H dragbike is to a VROD.  :-)

And remember back in the '80s when Ricky Graham and Bubba Shobert were kicking their asses on Hondas?  After Graham won the championship, there were suddenly a bunch of new rules that favored the Harley teams.

And let's not forget the TZ750 flat tracker that Kenny Roberts made (in)famous at Indy (and which was immediately banned from competition).

Sorry, went off topic there.

[fj johnnie]

 What kind of an organization is proud to beat Japanese 600 cc bikes with their 1000 cc bike. Really?

[Dan Filetti]

Okay, I know this has been posted several times, but I think it tells the story best. 
Bad Brad is the perfect stereotypical "new" Harley owner.

Bad Boy Brad Gets A New Bike

This one makes me laugh to the point of tears.

"I've been hiding myself...." 

[Dan Filetti]

Best South Park episode ever:

Harley Riders Are Fags SOUTH PARK

Dan

[Firehawk068]

Harleys are what they are,but it seems they are mostly used by people who cant ride very well and have no real intention of putting in the commitment to improving their skills.

This is THE best description I have ever read!
I not only agree with this, I have had  the misfortune of getting stuck behind a particular HD rider on a charity ride.
He and his wide-load ol' lady could NOT hold a line going around a curve to save their asses, and were such a menace on two wheels, I pulled out of the ridicules rolling road block and let the road clear out.
I have since given up on ANY motorcycling planned events in my area because I know it is all the same, no matter what, and have instead turned my interest in to attending our rallies! Thank God for that!
Leon

From my motorcycling experience (on street bikes), this is exactly what I see!
It doesn't apply to just Harley riders, but Jap cruiser riders as well.(although the Jap cruisers handle slightly better, and are put together better)

I ride with a couple riding groups from time to time........................I now make it a point to specifically sign up for a ride ONLY if I don't see any cruiser riders signed up.
Sorry, but it's just not my speed.
Riding 10-15mph UNDER the posted speed limit, while weaving all over the lane because you have no idea what to do with a curve in the road,  is the most unsafe riding I have ever seen.
Also, why is it that cruiser riders in general ride directly ON the back bumper of whatever vehicle they are following? What's with that?

Sorry CrazyJarmins, but for the most part, Harleys are considered "Overrated Garbage" by the majority of the motorcycling community, ridden by riders who care more about image than about actually riding a motorcycle...............That is just the way it is!
I'm not sure why you expected any different from a Japanese Sport/Touring community....................
You might be an exception? You might actually care about riding motorcycles? Your riding ability might be at a higher level than most cruiser riders?..............But this post wasn't aimed at you, it is merely poking fun at the general stereotype of the average Harley rider.
I don't frequent any Harley forums trying to justify owning a Yamaha, but if I did, maybe there would be someone posting about his adventure to Alaska, with 3 other Harley riders? (we should ask Zwartie how many he saw along the way, compared to the BMWs) It might move my image of their stereotype up a notch...........

I don't speed in traffic, I don't weave in and out of cars....................in fact, I ride WITH traffic(I will pass cars on the double yellow from time to time, but it's not unsafe) and for the most part, wether I'm on my FJ, or in one of my cages, the majority of riders I see weaving in and out of cars are Harley riders..............
Sure there are sport bike riders who do it, but it is NOT the norm, it's merely what you see because they are the ones who stand out.........and in Denver at least, I see alot more Harley riders doing this than Sport bike riders, and in my years of riding/driving experience, this is what I have observed...........

I don't have anything against Harleys, or cruisers in general.............they are just not my speed. They cater to a different crowd, one that I honestly don't care to be a part of........
It's the same thing with me and "Pickup Trucks"................There are people who go absolutely bonkers over lowered, lifted, in general, pickup trucks...............They don't do a damn thing for me! I have never owned one, and I don't care to ever own one...................they are simply not my thing!

The only Harley that even slightly interests me is the XR1200............(But only slightly) The design actually is not all that bad, and it does have a decent enough ground clearance for actually going around corners, but I would never own one....................They are just too F'ing slow for me. I actually LIKE to ride...........(I have ridden one.They suck!)
Their 1200cc is NOT comparable to the rest of the motorcycling world's 1200cc, certainly not comparable to an FJ's.
Their current technology is light-years behind even our 30-year old air-cooled technology...................More comparable to a modern 400cc motorcycle, at least for power output(not in terms of engineering)......

Keep in mind.............You don't Graduate UP to a Harley(I hear people say that from time to time) You don't grow UP and get a Harley(you might grow OLD and get one)
You simply decide "I want to step DOWN to a mortorcycle with far less capability than most, merely for the sake of my image, because this is what I like"
(and nobody better give me that crap about a more comfortable riding position!) It's NOT! You try riding for any length of time with your arms and legs stretched out in front of you........Go ahead!. I've tried it!

I do agree that they are popular however.............They seem to sell like hotcakes...In the way that pickup trucks sell like hotcakes..............
The majority of the riding groups that I see, cater to cruiser or harley riders........I have actually only found two riding groups around Denver that cater to Sport, or Sport/Touring riders............. I actually left a riding group that was mainly cruisers, not because it was mainly cruisers, but because there was way too much drama between it's members.........hard to believe  

For me, owning a Harley would be like.......................well, owning a pickup truck.........(they handle like crap, and both are used for either image, or carrying heavy loads) Sorry, couldn't resist.

PS...........CrazyJarmins, you should spy over on the Harley forum, and see what they are saying about Yamaha owners