FJ1100 vs FJ1200

[fintip]

Yeah, I went through your website in depth Alf, lots of interesting information and perspective.

As far as noting the contrast between those two sentiments... That's what's killing me in my research. How can the subjective difference be so huge? I really just need to try for myself. But I have my opinions, and don't like the fairing, style, colors, etc. of the last generation... Other than that I look at the first three generations at this point and consider them on their own merits, each having pros and cons. As of now, I found two in the last week that were almost worth it to me to fly out and buy, but both were sold by the time I contacted the owner. (89's, one in rough shape cosmetically but supposedly a good engine and running for $650 in FL, and another that was pretty all around in Cali for $1350, both of the 89 white/silver/red color scheme I liked). But I'm keeping my eyes peeled, and when I find the right one I'll make it happen. And then I'll slowly customize it to be my own. I even tried to convince a friend to go in with me and fly to albany and buy these and drive them back, and he takes one and I do. He was tempted, but it's not the bike he's looking for.

For everyone telling me to stop overthinking it... The answer is both I have, and I can't. I dive in and get obsessed. I'm not stressed about it, I'm enjoying it. I ended my "FJ Hunting" thread because I found what I needed to know, or at least as much as I could without riding the bikes myself (though I am still interested in what Doc has to say on the matter, though it looks like he's given me the shoulder until I pay up... And I have to say, I'm not a big fan of the break in 'open source' free sharing of information and just helping for the sake of helping, and am a little put off by that.)

Anyways, the point of this thread is to discuss the differences between the 11's and 12's, so what's wrong with having that discussion here? Sure, to each their own as to preference, but this thread is primarily concerned with the objective differences between the 2. I'd love to see Alf and slowoldguy argue that.

As to them all being worn and different, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd imagine they're all pretty much worn the same... All down to just about bottom end of their performance in terms of suspension, so if stock, probably equally bad. Shocks are just disposable equipment. (Obviously the discussion is different if we're talking about mods.) As far as engines, these are slow-wearing/long-lasting engines (anyone else see that one that is at 500k+ miles?), so I would imagine that most engines between 20-50k miles, and that's where most of the ones for sale are, are mostly the same if they had at least basic maintenance performed. In other words, we're talking about compression quality. And that's not a huge factor unless the bike was handled by an idiot. So, excepting the ones that are on their way to needing a top-end rebuild because of a bad PO, I really can't imagine they'd be so different.

And then, what else is there but cosmetics?

Frank, that is very much how I'm viewing my personal buying decision, so I'm very much in agreement with you there.

Everyone, there's no reason to keep going back to how I'm choosing to buy a bike, since that's not the point of this thread, and I'm a little uncomfortable feeling like I've become the center of attention here. I was just trying to provide some interesting information I gained in the course of my research from an interesting source; don't mind my personal stuff, talk about the 11 vs. the other generations.

In that vein, something I've been wondering lately... How different was the 2nd gen fairing (1TX) from the 3rd gen(3CV)? Are the mirrors from the FJ11 considered superior in functionality (even if generally viewed as less attractive by most, I gather?)?

[Alf]

Yeah, I went through your website in depth Alf, lots of interesting information and perspective.

Thanks mate  

For everyone telling me to stop overthinking it... The answer is both I have, and I can't. I dive in and get obsessed. I'm not stressed about it, I'm enjoying it. I ended my "FJ Hunting" thread because I found what I needed to know, or at least as much as I could without riding the bikes myself (though I am still interested in what Doc has to say on the matter, though it looks like he's given me the shoulder until I pay up... And I have to say, I'm not a big fan of the break in 'open source' free sharing of information and just helping for the sake of helping, and am a little put off by that.)

I left that forum because each time that I posted instructions to make any job or I gave my web like a reference with detailed instructions to performance the rims change my post was deleted 

Anyways, the point of this thread is to discuss the differences between the 11's and 12's, so what's wrong with having that discussion here? Sure, to each their own as to preference, but this thread is primarily concerned with the objective differences between the 2. I'd love to see Alf and slowoldguy argue that.

As STD, FJ 11 weight less, the fairing is the easiest to put apart (good for the home mechanic) and don´t vibrate (and the lugs are not continuously cracking like 1TX or 3CV) and feel more sporty, with a brilliant high rpm acceleration. FJ 12s clearly don´t feel good above 8.000 rpm. The only really bad point is that with +20 years the rear suspension teflon bushing must be shot

A ggod intermediate point is the 1TX: FJ11 similar little fairing and as STD, the most powerful of the bunch until 8.000 rpm. After this mark, the STD FJ 11 clearly accelerates fiercely  . All the STD 1TXs that I´ve ride (and I do usually with 2 of them) are more powerful than the rest FJ 12 models, side by side on the road. Bad points: the swing arm bushings, like the FJ 11

FJ 12 3CVs are more sedate and weighted than the 1TX, but the OE suspension is 20% stronger than before. The STD rear shock is near excellent with a couple of cheap tricks only fading a bit in a closed racetrack. The fairing is more protective and the rear swigarm-dogbones assy are much bettered

The last models clearly were made saving in production costs. The geometry is different, much more sedate, the bike weights clearly more and it is the best touring model, with no vibration at all and a pleasure to ride everyday.

As to them all being worn and different, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd imagine they're all pretty much worn the same... All down to just about bottom end of their performance in terms of suspension, so if stock, probably equally bad. Shocks are just disposable equipment. (Obviously the discussion is different if we're talking about mods.) As far as engines, these are slow-wearing/long-lasting engines (anyone else see that one that is at 500k+ miles?), so I would imagine that most engines between 20-50k miles, and that's where most of the ones for sale are, are mostly the same if they had at least basic maintenance performed. In other words, we're talking about compression quality. And that's not a huge factor unless the bike was handled by an idiot. So, excepting the ones that are on their way to needing a top-end rebuild because of a bad PO, I really can't imagine they'd be so different.

The OE equipment is not bad. In fact, (and I feel that I´m heretic each time I say this) the STD FJ 11 & 1TX fork with Hagon springs are the best of the bunch. And the STD 3CV & 1TX shocks are excellent (and after 7 years of intensive using in those 2 bikes the shocks are in perfect nick, like myself and my friend Mingo can say. And I´ve tested a lot of shocks...) The last 3XW is the worst forks, with longer stroke and the only thing that seems that can solve this is the Randy valves and springs. And the shock is the most basic, without remote preload, an inconvenient when changing from solo to duo

And yes, the engine is a nuclear bomb. My actual engine has done 170.000 kms and counting and in my FJ 11 I rode 165.000 kms (and modded, so in theory less reliable)

Everyone, there's no reason to keep going back to how I'm choosing to buy a bike, since that's not the point of this thread, and I'm a little uncomfortable feeling like I've become the center of attention here. I was just trying to provide some interesting information I gained in the course of my research from an interesting source; don't mind my personal stuff, talk about the 11 vs. the other generations.

don´t worry mate. Personally I have a lot of fun. And I think the other guys too, everyone wanting help you

[andyb]

As to them all being worn and different, maybe I'm wrong, but I'd imagine they're all pretty much worn the same... All down to just about bottom end of their performance in terms of suspension, so if stock, probably equally bad. Shocks are just disposable equipment. (Obviously the discussion is different if we're talking about mods.) As far as engines, these are slow-wearing/long-lasting engines (anyone else see that one that is at 500k+ miles?), so I would imagine that most engines between 20-50k miles, and that's where most of the ones for sale are, are mostly the same if they had at least basic maintenance performed. In other words, we're talking about compression quality. And that's not a huge factor unless the bike was handled by an idiot. So, excepting the ones that are on their way to needing a top-end rebuild because of a bad PO, I really can't imagine they'd be so different.

Bought a car lately?

Compare a car that was used as a rental, then purchased by a teenager and run in total neglect mode to one that was bought by my mother, stored in a garage, properly maintained (with receipts, even), and driven carefully.  They may have the same milage, they may be the same year, but they're in nothing like the same condition.

Bikes are very much the same way.  I bought my 90 with under 10k on the clock, and it had blown fork seals, a broken HT lead, ridiculously bad jetting, air filters held in place with wire, dirty carbs, no brakes to speak of, a leaking clutch slave, a slipping clutch, an extra neutral between 4th and 5th, a torn seat, a bald rear tire of the wrong size, a front that was only worn on the right (!?), leaks from a number of places, and so on.  They're certainly not all like that.


Also, SCREW that bullshit pay-to-register forum.

[Alf]

Its a free forum. Only the payment is for get mechanical advice from Doc

[Alf]

I left that forum because each time that I posted instructions to make any job or I gave my web like a reference with detailed instructions to performance the rims change my post was deleted 

I´ve just received a personal message from Richie, the FJ UK forum moderator. I think there was a terrific misunderstanding from my part on that issue, and that the problem was only then informatics gremlins.  If he gives me permission, I publish his personal message and mine

[Alf]

I left that forum because each time that I posted instructions to make any job or I gave my web like a reference with detailed instructions to performance the rims change my post was deleted 

I´ve just received a personal message from Richie, the FJ UK forum moderator. I think there was a terrific misunderstanding from my part on that issue, and that the problem was only then informatics gremlins.  If he gives me permission, I publish his personal message and mine

Please, read this

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7561.0

[fintip]

After a LOT of searching, I was able to find the link to the UK forums. This was my second time searching, I didn't find it the first time I was there.

And then, on the front page, you see:

This forum is not run by the club. I (Pugwash) Bob, run this out of my own personal funds as a member of the club. If you wish to make a donation all are welcome to and there is no min limit required. As a bonus all those that do, get the award notice on their profile, but also if requested, a web based email address of [whatever]@fjfjrbiker.co.uk - this is a standard pop3 email that can be accessed from any web browser. Many thanks, Pugwash.

So again, no thanks to Doc for this one...

[fintip]

As STD, FJ 11 weight less, the fairing is the easiest to put apart (good for the home mechanic) and don´t vibrate (and the lugs are not continuously cracking like 1TX or 3CV) and feel more sporty, with a brilliant high rpm acceleration. FJ 12s clearly don´t feel good above 8.000 rpm. The only really bad point is that with +20 years the rear suspension teflon bushing must be shot

A ggod intermediate point is the 1TX: FJ11 similar little fairing and as STD, the most powerful of the bunch until 8.000 rpm. After this mark, the STD FJ 11 clearly accelerates fiercely  . All the STD 1TXs that I´ve ride (and I do usually with 2 of them) are more powerful than the rest FJ 12 models, side by side on the road. Bad points: the swing arm bushings, like the FJ 11

FJ 12 3CVs are more sedate and weighted than the 1TX, but the OE suspension is 20% stronger than before. The STD rear shock is near excellent with a couple of cheap tricks only fading a bit in a closed racetrack. The fairing is more protective and the rear swigarm-dogbones assy are much bettered

The last models clearly were made saving in production costs. The geometry is different, much more sedate, the bike weights clearly more and it is the best touring model, with no vibration at all and a pleasure to ride everyday.

I hadn't heard that the first generation had less vibration problems and felt a lot better above 8k--that's super interesting! And would definitely A) Make sense, as a touring machine wants to be able to pass other cars on the highway, not beat them in a straightaway, and might be the result/reason for the gearing changes between the 11 and 12, and B) explain the quarter mile times not getting better with the big bore engine and actually seeming to get a hair worse in reviews of the day.

I think you just sold me on getting an 11 instead of a 12, personally.

Teflon bushing; is that something that would be replaced with Randy's new rear shock he's working on? I haven't ever had to mess with rear shocks except to adjust their preload settings (not the most complex maneuver...), so I don't know exactly what you're talking about.

In the end, I'll still give all the first 3 generations a shot, but I think I'd prefer an FJ11 to an 1TX as I did before reading this and hearing what Doc had to say.

The OE equipment is not bad. In fact, (and I feel that I´m heretic each time I say this) the STD FJ 11 & 1TX fork with Hagon springs are the best of the bunch. And the STD 3CV & 1TX shocks are excellent (and after 7 years of intensive using in those 2 bikes the shocks are in perfect nick, like myself and my friend Mingo can say. And I´ve tested a lot of shocks...) The last 3XW is the worst forks, with longer stroke and the only thing that seems that can solve this is the Randy valves and springs. And the shock is the most basic, without remote preload, an inconvenient when changing from solo to duo

Well that's interesting. So if you could take any set of forks and put the RPM emulator in them, you'd take the FJ11 or 1TX? As far as the spring, shouldn't they all be worthless by now and need replacing? (Or are you suggesting that a Hagon spring be added to replace the stock spring?). Or are you saying that even without the emulator but with a new spring, the FJ11 forks aren't bad?

I don't know enough about internal design of forks to know any better.

Bought a car lately?

Compare a car that was used as a rental, then purchased by a teenager and run in total neglect mode to one that was bought by my mother, stored in a garage, properly maintained (with receipts, even), and driven carefully.  They may have the same milage, they may be the same year, but they're in nothing like the same condition.

Bikes are very much the same way.  I bought my 90 with under 10k on the clock, and it had blown fork seals, a broken HT lead, ridiculously bad jetting, air filters held in place with wire, dirty carbs, no brakes to speak of, a leaking clutch slave, a slipping clutch, an extra neutral between 4th and 5th, a torn seat, a bald rear tire of the wrong size, a front that was only worn on the right (!?), leaks from a number of places, and so on.  They're certainly not all like that.

You're right. I am not arguing with that. I'm saying that when you get all the maintenance items in order, the bikes from the same generation are going to have very similar feel. (Screwed up transmission puts it out of the running, of course, and counts as internal damage--also, I did say "excepting an idiot PO".

[Alf]

I hadn't heard that the first generation had less vibration problems and felt a lot better above 8k--that's super interesting! And would definitely A) Make sense, as a touring machine wants to be able to pass other cars on the highway, not beat them in a straightaway, and might be the result/reason for the gearing changes between the 11 and 12, and B) explain the quarter mile times not getting better with the big bore engine and actually seeming to get a hair worse in reviews of the day.

The gearing changes not explain the difference: it is only 1 th more at the rear than the 1TX and 2 more than the 3CV. I think the bike was more equilibrated when it was 1100. In fact, the usual collateral effect from fitting a big bore kit in any bike is vibration... just the 1200 is: a big bored 1100. Yamaha solved this problem with the last model, tweaking the chassis (and increasing weight)

Teflon bushing; is that something that would be replaced with Randy's new rear shock he's working on? I haven't ever had to mess with rear shocks except to adjust their preload settings (not the most complex maneuver...), so I don't know exactly what you're talking about.

The inner dogbones bushes are made of teflon, less durable than the bearings on the following models, 3 CV and 3XW. And you can´t tweak the geometry changing the dogbones, even although with shorter dogbones, (more weight at the front), fork tubes protruding 1 cm of the top yoke and 5,5" rear rim in fact I ´ve got that my 3CV feel exactly with the same geometry than the completely STD 1TX of my friend Mingo, a world different from the 3CV std geometry

[Alf]

The OE equipment is not bad. In fact, (and I feel that I´m heretic each time I say this) the STD FJ 11 & 1TX fork with Hagon springs are the best of the bunch. And the STD 3CV & 1TX shocks are excellent (and after 7 years of intensive using in those 2 bikes the shocks are in perfect nick, like myself and my friend Mingo can say. And I´ve tested a lot of shocks...) The last 3XW is the worst forks, with longer stroke and the only thing that seems that can solve this is the Randy valves and springs. And the shock is the most basic, without remote preload, an inconvenient when changing from solo to duo

Well that's interesting. So if you could take any set of forks and put the RPM emulator in them, you'd take the FJ11 or 1TX? As far as the spring, shouldn't they all be worthless by now and need replacing? (Or are you suggesting that a Hagon spring be added to replace the stock spring?). Or are you saying that even without the emulator but with a new spring, the FJ11 forks aren't bad?

The STD fork springs are S***, except the 3XW model... And anyway, with 20 years on, those must be shot. Let me explain

All my friends and myself have fitted Hagon fork springs in our front forks. All of us own 1TX and 3CV models. I´m really tempted about Randy emulators and springs, but our forks works so nicely...

Different way the 3XW. In my group of FJ owners there are competent home mechanics, long range biker courier and very fast FJ owners (I include a pic of my friend Paco with his wife... and he is not the fastest!). And with all our knowledgement and testing a variety of things in a lot of kms, the 3XW never could be at the same level than the rest of the bunch. Maybe with the Randy hardware it could be solved, but it is better leave this model STD. It is a great bike for touring and for everyday use. Possibly the best for this use, nice, soft, with no vibration... but the other models even in STD form can live with much modern machines

[Alf]

Take into account in your election the kind of rider that you´re. When I speak about the teflon bushes, i.e., I´m speaking from the point of view of a rider with a lot of use & abuse of the bike. If I remember well I changed 2 times the bushes in my FJ 11 for the 165.000 kms that I rode on. Now I´m changing the bearings in my 3CV after 175.000 kms for the 1st time. These were bad, but no so bad