Hagon fork springs and RPM fok valves?

[Alf]

The Hagon front springs are a BIG improvement over the OE ones, and far better than the öhlins and the Progressive springs. But only in the 1TX and 3CV models: the 3XW Hagon springs are too stiff. The bike can be settled with minimum preload (for my 82 kg with full equipment) , don´t dive in hard braking, absorb bumps and still the bike has hard rock stability at 200 plus (even with more aggressive geometry due to short dogbones)

BUT the hydraulic feeling is crude

I´m thinking about to test the Randy fork valves with my Hagon springs

Any body knows the 3CV Hagon front fork springs rate?

Randy says than you can use OE springs... well, the OE springs are so bad that even new are useless. But you can´t use them because are these too long? then you couldn´t use Hagon springs...

Another solution is travelling to the US to test the Randy fork conversion to see if there is so much gain over the Hagon fork springs... Maybe one day    In fact, my dream is travelling to the US riding a FJ. One day... 

[Mike Ramos]

Good morning Alf,

I HIGHLY recommend the fork valves from R.P.M.  I originally installed progressive rate springs and was pleased with the improvement, however, when I installed the Fork Valves from Randy, the improvement was astounding.
The valves are a shim stack, not just a blow off valve, so the oil is metered, not just restricted until the a valve is triggered.

One great advantage is that the valves permit you to run a softer rate spring spring & light weight oil for very comfortable freeway cruising (at any speed, including triple digit). However bumps, pot holes, sharp jolts & even  lane dividing reflectors are readily absorbed. The valves improved the performance to such a degree that I eventually purchased a Fork Brace as well.

I posted a video from the Gunnison Rally that really shows the front forks at work. Some time ago I posted another video of the forks in action where I am crossing a cattle guard and the front end takes a "double shot" impact HOWEVER very little is transmitted through the handle bars.

When riding on back country roads, the all around performance is enhanced to such a degree that I blew out my original rear shock and the front forks track so well that somewhere along the way I tweaked my front rim as well.

Based on my experience with the Fork Valves, the subsequent increased demands placed on the front suspension components & in anticipation of the new shock that RPM has in development, I have STRETGHENED the swing arm to handle what I expect to be another demanding increase upon the suspension. I will finish installing it today & post pictures next weekend.

All in all, with the new rear shock I expect an enhancement of the quality & comfort of the ride such as I have had the pleasure to experience with the Fork Valves over many thousands of miles under varied & [at times] extreme conditions.

Ride carefully,

Mike Ramos.

[Alf]

Hola Mike:

i´ve seen the video. Do you fit the valves alone or the Randy springs too?. sorry, but I don´t remember that detail
The Hagon springs are soft but the bike don't dive on hard brake. I like them a lot, hence my doubts

[FJmonkey]

Hola Mike:

i´ve seen the video. Do you fit the valves alone or the Randy springs too?. sorry, but I don´t remember that detail
The Hagon springs are soft but the bike don't dive on hard brake. I like them a lot, hence my doubts

Hi Alf, I have the RaceTech straight rate springs at 0.85 Lbs rate and the RPM valves that I installed myself. Randy thinks I can bump the rate down to 0.80 as he was getting good results with it during his testing. With the RPM valves the springs need to be softer that you think, the valve really does the work. The dive effect did not entirely go away but was greatly reduced. I still don't like using front brakes in corners but if I need to I have much more control. My rear shock seemed to suddenly get worse when I upgraded the front. Maybe it got pissed because it is way overdue for retirement but still has to report to work...

[nurse]

Hola Mike:

i´ve seen the video. Do you fit the valves alone or the Randy springs too?. sorry, but I don´t remember that detail
The Hagon springs are soft but the bike don't dive on hard brake. I like them a lot, hence my doubts

Hi Alf, I have the RaceTech straight rate springs at 0.85 Lbs rate and the RPM valves that I installed myself. Randy thinks I can bump the rate down to 0.80 as he was getting good results with it during his testing. With the RPM valves the springs need to be softer that you think, the valve really does the work. The dive effect did not entirely go away but was greatly reduced. I still don't like using front brakes in corners but if I need to I have much more control. My rear shock seemed to suddenly get worse when I upgraded the front. Maybe it got pissed because it is way overdue for retirement but still has to report to work...

The rpm valves are something I really want to do this winter.  I HATE the nose dive effect when I brake and was hoping this would cure it.  But having read fjmonkey's comments I'm not so sure this will give me what I'm hoping for.  I acknowledge the overwhelming opinion that is expressed by many about the handling improvements, but get a little nervous at times trying to scrub off speed and then turn in only for the nose to suddenly pop up once u let go of the brakes.

[FJmonkey]

But having read fjmonkey's comments I'm not so sure this will give me what I'm hoping for.  I acknowledge the overwhelming opinion that is expressed by many about the handling improvements, but get a little nervous at times trying to scrub off speed and then turn in only for the nose to suddenly pop up once u let go of the brakes.

The effect of reduced dive with the RPM valves over my stock set up is like 80% reduced dive. To me this is having 80% reduced stand-up effect if I apply brakes while cornering. I much prefer to get my braking done before turn-in but I miss judge on occasion. And when I let off the brakes the natural turn-in is not a radical change either. This means the front is not popping up nearly as much as before. I feel much more confident in the corners if I need to use the brakes. If you want zero dive you should weld up your forks. The nature of suspension is gonna have some dive effect. Other suspension systems might be better at reducing dive even more but I doubt it would cost less than what I paid for my FJ. Find another member near you and trade bikes for a short ride. You will then feel for yourself how much benefit you get for the price. 

[yamaha fj rider]

Many people have tried the RPM fork valves I have not heard of one complaint, plus Randy's known for quality products. Hope this helps.

Kurt

[Alf]

My fork dives when braking, but so sweet and progressive with the Hagon that is near perfect: only a bit, not too much, keeping the geometry only a touch sharper on brakes, but not too much... excellent!. I think the Hagon rates are near perfect for me. And I´ve tested öhlins, WP, Progressive, Race tech... and FJs with FZR and FZ! forks and the feeling was not so good

Same results with my friend Mingo´s 1TX, hagon equipped. Even better feeling because of the excellent anti-dive (yes!, excellent!). Not the same effect in my ex-3XW: the Hagon springs were too hard

My question is: anybody knows the Hagon spring rate? These feels very soft pushing the bike, but simply perfect when riding the bike
And could I simply fit the valves and not the springs?, Are Randy springs shorter than the 3CV OE or replacement, both same length?

[1tinindian]

I have the benefit of earlier testing and Randy supplied me with the 0.80 rate springs along with his fork valves and all I can say is that the front is very stable and I have all  the confidence in the world while under braking in turns.
I'm sure my fork brace adds to that as well.

Leon

[Mike Ramos]

Hello Alf & others,

Alf, the nice thing about the fork valves is that while actual dive is minimized, the also forks continue to cycle even under compression, which is a definite advantage over a simple "blow off" valve. In other words, it is academic if you are motoring down the road and encounter a sharp bump or you if are braking hard, the forks continue to cycle, not simply continue to compress.

As far as braking going into a turn: under braking (hard or otherwise) as you release the front brake, there is virtually no "bounce back" because the valves are controlling the rebound as well, which eleminates the chassy upset that is being questioned.

Again, I added the fork brace at a later date because I wanted to ensure the improvements were just that, an IMPROVEMENT - not just a change. As I have stated previously, I was not unhappy with the progressive rate springs, thus it took convincing to even have me try the the valves, but once I did the difference is truly n
ight & day.

As far as FJ Monkey mentioning that the dive is part of the charactristic of the design, that is absolutely correct. It is a fact that the BMW K1300 with its' different front suspension, had to be reconfigured so as to INTRODUCE front end dive.

As to the rear shock: I have (out of necessity) replaced it with a late model sport shock that has adjustable high & low speed as well as rebound dampening. While it is not a Penske or the Honda shock that has been discussed on this Forum, it is never the less a good shock, and while a drastic improvement over the stock unit, it is no match for the Fork Valves, thus I am eagerly awaiting the new shock currently beibg developed by R.P.M. If, and I believe it will, it transforms the rear end handling characteristics as much as the Fork Valves have improved the front, then it will be well worth the investment.

While I cannot attest to the competency of other motorcycles, nor to their ride qualities, I do believe that the with the suspension improvements developed by Randy at R.P.M., from an all around ride quality aspect (either spirited back road sport riding or long distance motoring), the FJ is hard to beat.

Many thanks to Randy & R.P.M.

Mike Ramos.
   

[racerrad8]

Randy says than you can't use OE springs... well, the OE springs are so bad that even new are useless. But you can´t use them because are these too long? then you couldn´t use Hagon springs...

The reason you cannot use the stock springs is that they are too soft and allow the fork valve to lift from the seat and bypass oil, it has nothing to do with the spring length.

If you can contact Hagon and determine the spring rate, I can advise if they will work, but if they are progressive they will not work.

The rpm valves are something I really want to do this winter.  I HATE the nose dive effect when I brake and was hoping this would cure it.  But having read fjmonkey's comments I'm not so sure this will give me what I'm hoping for.  I acknowledge the overwhelming opinion that is expressed by many about the handling improvements, but get a little nervous at times trying to scrub off speed and then turn in only for the nose to suddenly pop up once u let go of the brakes.

Well, if you hate the dive you get in the stock forks, then you need a fork valves. Since the stock design of the forks are fixed orifice oil transfer to control travel, it doesn't take into consideration of rider weight & riding style or whether the fork is seeing high or low speed movement.

The RT valves are a step up from the stock fork, but they are still a fixed orifice to control oil flow with a spring loaded bypass to compensate for high speed compression actuation. They still have to use a stiff spring to control the compression of the forks and they do give the "pop up" on rebound because of the high spring rate; 80's technology.

The RPM fork valves are a true shim stack valve that modulates the fork travel that also has a patented inertia bypass valve for bumps & holes. These valves to not have "dive" as they have a controlled compression of the fork during braking.

The reason they do not "dive" is because they do not rely on the high spring rate to control the compression movement like the stock and RT valve offer. Then the RT valve presents the situation, once you get off the brakes and the spring rate is so high, the bike springs back up giving that uncomfortable "pop up" feeling of the front end.

The RPM fork valves technology allows the spring rate to be lowered for better all around ride quality and the valve controls the oil flow of the fork for the best ride possible. Since the spring is not too stiff to control the "dive" the bike does not "spring" back and the RPM fork valve again controls the rebound of the front fork for a controlled rise.

I have found the harder I ride my bike, the better I like them. During the WCR & Colorado rallies I rode my bike the hardest I have ever ridden it. There were several in attendance who commented that my 86, with the stock 16" wheels & brakes, impressed them with their mods of the bigger wheel & brakes. I find that I am actually braking into the corner now that I am learning the stability of the valves.

I have been consistently testing with different spring rates and oil levels and really have not found a better combination of the recommended springs & oil level.

My question is: anybody knows the Hagon spring rate? These feels very soft pushing the bike, but simply perfect when riding the bike
And could I simply fit the valves and not the springs?, Are Randy springs shorter than the 3CV OE or replacement, both same length?

Since we do not have access to Hagon here in the US, there is no information available. Once you determine the spring rate we can determine if the springs will work. I can say that if the Hagon spring are progressive, they will not work. The springs need to be a straight rate spring to allow the inertia valve to function throughout the fork travel. If the progressive rate spring becomes too stiff and does not allow the RPM fork valve to move and bypass properly the ride becomes very harsh.

Yes, the RT springs I sell are shorter that the stock springs and include spacer material to set the preload.

Randy - RPM

[Alf]

Randy says than you can't use OE springs... well, the OE springs are so bad that even new are useless. But you can´t use them because are these too long? then you couldn´t use Hagon springs...

I wanted to say that. My fingers played with the keyboard 

I can say that if the Hagon spring are progressive, they will not work. T
Randy - RPM

The Hagon are progressive. Thanks, Randy. I can´t use them with valves

[backstreetheros]

That's thread is a very interesting read.
With all the added weight on my chop my sump hits the floor when you bounce the forks.
I need to increase the preload and higher the bikes standard state.
Will this justwork with spacers?
And how do you compress the spring enough to get the top nut back in after adding spacers?
Also what weight oil should I run? I want them to be a bit stiffer
Cheers.

[Alf]

Hi
The OE springs are horrible even new. Fitting spacers is the poor man solution, but you always could try with different length spacers. The OE springs are so bland in the first part of the compression that it must not too difficult fit a 5 cm spacers
With OE springs use 15 w oil, or better and cheaper, 20-50 engine motor oil, in OE quantities

[Mike Ramos]

Hello everyone,

I was asked how come I did not go with the Penske rear shock.

The Penske is a "universal" shock that is modified to fit a particular motorcycle (including the mounting). By the time you purchase the basic shock & then add the particular extras, the cost is very expensive.

I decided to wait for the RPM rear shock because it will be FJ specific (as are the Fork Valves) and based on the performance of the of the front end, I am confident the rear shock under development will out perform the Penske. Plus the mounting brackets will be first class as well.

Ride safe,

Mike Ramos.