Fork seals replaced - Now having driveability problems

[PeteGLH]

Hey all!

Title says it all.   Last fall I had the steering (fork) bearing changed and I must say,  the bike handled great!   This spring after taking it out of storage,  I noticed the fork seals to be leaking.

I normally do all the work on my bike,  but I am not equipped to do fork seals so I brought my lady to the garage (...)   

I hate bringing my stuff to the garage and this is why:

First off,  they charged me 3 hours labour for the job,  which seems to be a bit on the steep side...  They mentionned something about having to heat the seals to get them off.... I don't know,  it sounds fishy to me...  Anyhow, they charged me 300$ for the job...  Again steep,  but not too bad.  Here is the main issue:   The bike now handles awkwardly...

I thought it was a minor issue (I thought it could be due to the newer fork oil at first) and that I would get used to it,  but I am not liking it at all.    Front end seems very unstable... almost "wobbly".   In cornering at low speeds it is almost impossible to switch from a steer into a counterbalance...    If I am turning left,   the front end seems to want to steer extra left...  Anyway,  it is the most strange feeling... almost as if there is no weight on the front wheel...

Any ideas what they could have "/$%"/$ up?   I don't mind paying 300$ if they put three hours on the bike,   but I cannot accept that it runs WORSE than what it was running before.

Before I head back there,  any ideas as to what could be the culprit of my issue?!  Are there grades of fork oil??

Any feedback would be appreciated guys... I'm not liking the bike and it makes me sad.

Thanks in advance!!
Peter 

[PeteGLH]

Thought it would be in my sig,   but my ride is an 1984 FJ1100.   I'm reading around... lots of stuff about the Anti-Dive system,   perhaps I should try tinkering around with the settings??

[FJmonkey]

Hey all!

Title says it all.   Last fall I had the steering (fork) bearing changed and I must say,  the bike handled great!   This spring after taking it out of storage,  I noticed the fork seals to be leaking.

I normally do all the work on my bike,  but I am not equipped to do fork seals so I brought my lady to the garage (...)   

I hate bringing my stuff to the garage and this is why:

First off,  they charged me 3 hours labour for the job,  which seems to be a bit on the steep side...  They mentionned something about having to heat the seals to get them off.... I don't know,  it sounds fishy to me...  Anyhow, they charged me 300$ for the job...  Again steep,  but not too bad.  Here is the main issue:   The bike now handles awkwardly...

I thought it was a minor issue (I thought it could be due to the newer fork oil at first) and that I would get used to it,  but I am not liking it at all.    Front end seems very unstable... almost "wobbly".   In cornering at low speeds it is almost impossible to switch from a steer into a counterbalance...    If I am turning left,   the front end seems to want to steer extra left...  Anyway,  it is the most strange feeling... almost as if there is no weight on the front wheel...

Any ideas what they could have "/$%"/$ up?   I don't mind paying 300$ if they put three hours on the bike,   but I cannot accept that it runs WORSE than what it was running before.

Before I head back there,  any ideas as to what could be the culprit of my issue?!  Are there grades of fork oil??

Any feedback would be appreciated guys... I'm not liking the bike and it makes me sad.

Thanks in advance!!
Peter 

I recently rebuilt my forks including seals. At no point is heat needed. Once drained you slide them apart like a slide hammer and two halves of the forks separate leaving the loose seals to simply slide off. 

Check the top of the forks and make sure they are installed evenly. One fork up too high will force the pre-load and performance out of balance. Pull the wiper up and look at the seals from the top. Is the retaining ring still in? Do the seals look evenly seated? Can you see a hollow grove in the seals going all the way around (upside down seals)? Ask them what oil they used. Some oils may be too heavy and provide sluggish dampening. Check the adjustments at the top of the forks, make sure they set the same. make sure the pre-load is where you want it. Check all the easy stuff first. We will help you figure it out. 

[oldktmdude]

  Try loosening all the triple clamp pinch-bolts and front axle, then giving the forks a good shaking. Tighten it all back up, making sure, as Mark said, to keep the top of the forks the same distance above the top triple- clamp. The height above the clamp is important to the bike's steering speed, so don't have too much fork above the clamp for starters. If you want to quicken the steering, you can adjust this distance at a later date.
  Also, as Mark said, heat should not be required to change fork seals. Sounds like you have been talking  a person that had no idea of what actually happened to your bike and just made up a story to justify to price of the job. Hope you get it sorted.  Regards, Pete.

[Mark Olson]

sounds like they messed up . you get a warranty?

sounds like the d shaped rod may be in the wrong hole.

and yes there are many different fork oil weights , the most common 10w,15w,20w. 

there are several adjustments on your stock forks as well . If the shop rotated the damper out of alignment it will not work correctly.

if the oil level is off it can cause a problem as well , measure it.  ya gotta open them up anyway. try 15w

300.00 is the normal price for fork seals in my neck of the woods.

 

[PeteGLH]

Hey all, 

Thanks for the input.  Today is sunday,  it raining and I am working.      I will take a look at the basic adjustments tomorrow.   I was not aware of all the little adjustments that were available.  I know that the seals are installed right side up.  I'll take a look around for an adjustment topic to know how to set everything to correct specs.

As I said,  i've fooled around in cars,  but bikes are relatively new to me!   This forum is proving to be an awesome ressource.   Y'all are great.   

I will keep you posted,  and take a few pictures in the mix as well. 
___

I recently rebuilt my forks including seals. At no point is heat needed. Once drained you slide them apart like a slide hammer and two halves of the forks separate leaving the loose seals to simply slide off. 

Check the top of the forks and make sure they are installed evenly. One fork up too high will force the pre-load and performance out of balance. Pull the wiper up and look at the seals from the top. Is the retaining ring still in? Do the seals look evenly seated? Can you see a hollow grove in the seals going all the way around (upside down seals)? Ask them what oil they used. Some oils may be too heavy and provide sluggish dampening. Check the adjustments at the top of the forks, make sure they set the same. make sure the pre-load is where you want it. Check all the easy stuff first. We will help you figure it out. 

 

[andyb]

While you're checking, it's silly, but doublecheck the tire pressure as well.  Otherwise monkey gave a pretty comprehensive description of things that could cause it.

[PeteGLH]

Thanks andyb,   I will check that as well.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=764.msg5456#msg5456

This is a great topic.  I will keep you posted on my findings.

Regards!

[PeteGLH]

Returned to the garage today,  the guy took my bike for a spin.   He states it was fine,  other than a slight tendancy to steer a little left.   He stated something about my bike being crooked,  probably because it had fallen on the side or what not...

I say: 

So that's enough for that.   I've heard,  from my neighbor (and new biker friend) that that garage is probably one of the worst places in Montreal.   Go figure,  just my luck. 

I will tinker around with the settings,  I'm getting used to it slowly... slowly adapting to the new settings,  it really isn't that bad... just felt awkward at first....

[PeteGLH]

  Try loosening all the triple clamp pinch-bolts and front axle, then giving the forks a good shaking. Tighten it all back up, making sure, as Mark said, to keep the top of the forks the same distance above the top triple- clamp. The height above the clamp is important to the bike's steering speed, so don't have too much fork above the clamp for starters. If you want to quicken the steering, you can adjust this distance at a later date.
  Also, as Mark said, heat should not be required to change fork seals. Sounds like you have been talking  a person that had no idea of what actually happened to your bike and just made up a story to justify to price of the job. Hope you get it sorted.  Regards, Pete.

Just for reference,  the distance above the top triple clamp would be the distance above the black sleeve at the complete top of the steering rack/fork?   If that is the case,  the right side seems to be out by about 1/16"  whereas the left side sits pretty flush.   I do notice the bike tends to "tuck" under when turning left,  (steering seems quicker)  and if I let go of the handlebars while cruising,  bike tends to steer a little right... 

Have we found an interesting source?

[fj11.5]

as ive been taught metric from a young age, i cant remember most of the other ways to measure, but would say if they are not the same height then im sure that would be most of the problem 

[andyb]

1/16 of an inch is .0625in.  In metric, that's about 1.6mm.

Fix it, definitely.  It'll mean that one fork leg is very slightly preloaded a pinch more than the other, or that the axle is slightly cocked in relation to the ground, which would put the tire at a slight lean.  Brakes won't likely be quite right in that case either.  Once they're the same (doesn't really matter if you bring one up or the other down, it's a really tiny adjustment either direction).  Raising both forks through a bit will quicken steering at a cost of stability, lowering the forks down to flush will make the steering a bit slower.  Personally, I'd go with the latter in hopes that it helps calm a wobble as the tire cups, but ymmv there.

And once that's done, recheck the rear tire's alignment vs the front tire, then ride it again and see what you think.

[PeteGLH]

Hey guys,  you can see the difference in both on these pictures.

Andyb,  when you mean lower,  you mean having the top of the fork stick out a little bit from the top triple clamp right?

[axiom-r]

As some of you guys noticed at the WCR I have an offset at the top of my forks much like what you are dealing with here Pete GLH.  The trick to make sure you are not preloading one fork leg spring more than the other is to make sure the front axle goes in and out easily and is properly aligned.  To do this on my bike, I set a floor jack under the motor and slightly lifted the front end while the back was in a pit stand. I then removed the front wheel and loosened the fork pinch bolts.  I set the left side fork tune exactly where I wanted it and tightened all the bolts on that side- then raised and lowered the right side leg until the axle slipped easily in and out of the forks (wheel was out).  When  it was aligned correctly I tightened up the right side pinch bolts.  The forks at the top were uneven but there was no uneven loading because the front axle was aligned....  does that make sense?

tim

[fj11.5]

thanks Andy b , ,  that's a good way to check the forks, I guess being cast items they may not be 100% true ,