Bleeding the ABS system (front)

[Capn Ron]

Okay...so, I've been through heaps of messages about ditching the ABS system, but mine works like new and I'm stubbornly keeping it.  This is a ground-up rebuild so everything is dry...and the full stainless 9-hose Galfer setup.  I thought the clutch was supposed to be the tough bleed...Nothing to it!  Moved on to the rear brakes...nailed that with the best pedal feel I've ever had.  Now onto the front...

Admittedly, this has a LOT of line between the master and the calipers...After a day of frustration and almost NO lever feel, I'm humbly asking for those that have been there before me...  What's the trick?  I can put in as much time as needed, but it seems I'm getting nowhere so far.  Well, that's not exactly true.  I have clear hoses and fluid pumping out of both calipers with little to no bubbles...even so, the best I get is a 5-pump on the lever to get ANY feel. ...and that's after running 1/2 a quart through it!

I have a mega-fluid extractor at my disposal and I've just ordered speed bleeders...What's the method?  How does the dealer do this?  Can the air ever be pumped out using just the lever?  The vacuum extractor *seems* like a good thought, but I'm drawing from the lowest part in the system...air wants to rise to the highest point.

What gives?

Cap'n Ron. . .

[rktmanfj]

Okay...so, I've been through heaps of messages about ditching the ABS system, but mine works like new and I'm stubbornly keeping it.  This is a ground-up rebuild so everything is dry...and the full stainless 9-hose Galfer setup.  I thought the clutch was supposed to be the tough bleed...Nothing to it!  Moved on to the rear brakes...nailed that with the best pedal feel I've ever had.  Now onto the front...

Admittedly, this has a LOT of line between the master and the calipers...After a day of frustration and almost NO lever feel, I'm humbly asking for those that have been there before me...  What's the trick?  I can put in as much time as needed, but it seems I'm getting nowhere so far.  Well, that's not exactly true.  I have clear hoses and fluid pumping out of both calipers with little to no bubbles...even so, the best I get is a 5-pump on the lever to get ANY feel. ...and that's after running 1/2 a quart through it!

I have a mega-fluid extractor at my disposal and I've just ordered speed bleeders...What's the method?  How does the dealer do this?  Can the air ever be pumped out using just the lever?  The vacuum extractor *seems* like a good thought, but I'm drawing from the lowest part in the system...air wants to rise to the highest point.

What gives?

Cap'n Ron. . .

Does the ABS model have the splitter right by the horn?       

Easy to get an air bubble trapped in there, I hear.

[ally]

I used to suffer with poor front brake feel on an old fzr100exup I used to have

a work mate of mine helped with with the task, my job was to keep tapping on the brake lines to help shift the bubbles, 10 minutes later proper job

never needed to do it again.............

[RichBaker]

Have you tried reverse bleeding, pushing the fluid up from the caliper? That works pretty well.....

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Pump the lever until you get a lot of resistance then put a zip tie or something similar to hold the brake lever all the way against the grip (needs to be something strong as I've had zip ties break). Remove the zip tie the following morning and the lever should be stiff as a sailor in a

[Capn Ron]

Okay...so, I got this solved!  I just finished bleeding the front brakes...with ABS, with six Galfer stainless lines and two hard lines...There are seven banjo bolts, four compression fittings and one splitter "tee" in this system...holy smokes that's a LOT of places to trap tiny air bubbles!  I want to thank those that chimed in with advice...all of it helped.  For those that may endeavor upon this task in the future, I'll give a detailed run-down as to what it took to get a rock-hard brake lever feel.

So, the big issue was having SO much air in the system (started dry) that it was hard to tell if any of my efforts were working.  After initially mucking around with stock bleeder screws and trying to pump fluid through, it took 13 fast lever pulls to feel any pressure at all.  Note to self:  13 is where we're starting from.  I then attached a vacuum fluid extractor to one of the brake bleeder screws with some clear 1/4" tubing I picked up at OSH.  This didn't have much effect because when I drew a vacuum, there were a thousand tiny bubbles coming off the bleeder screw area.  Hmmm...  Okay, so I figured the hose wasn't air tight to the bleeder screw.  Added a fuel hose clamp and check!  No more air bubbles!  Until I opened the bleeder screw.  Ug.  Stop...step back and re-think this all.  Third pass... I replaced the bleeder screw with a speed bleeder...this did two things: 1.  I wouldn't have to operate the wrench in coordination with the pumping of the lever...cool.  2. It's a longer bleeder screw so the hose fits on more securely.  Now, I smeared a good blob of grease around the base of the speed bleeder...this keeps air from entering my extractor hose through the threads when the screw is cracked.  I then put the little wrench over the screw and then attached the hose with the fuel line clamp.  I pumped up the extractor and not a single bubble.  A perfect air-tight seal!  I then opened up the screw slightly (1/8 of a turn) and pumped the lever non-stop at about a 1-second/stroke pace with my right hand...and topped off the master cylinder with fluid using my left hand.  Enormous amounts of air bubbles came out!  It was like I was moving the fluid through the system so quickly that the air was all forced to the bottom bleed-out point.  Testing pressure I was down to six strokes...much better than the initial 13!  I took another pass...this time, I tapped on every fitting with a tack hammer to jog trapped bubbles loose.  I kept repeating this process watching endless bubbles until I was down to two strokes for full pressure...then one...then 1/2...then finally about 1/8 lever stroke for full brake pressure.  All in all, it was about two hours. two glasses of wine and four quarts of brake fluid.

Out of all the years I've ridden this bike...always having the brakes serviced at dealers...I've never had this good of a brake feel.  There were several keys:

Having a large vacuum fluid extractor to manage all the outbound fluid.
Clamping the hose so the only bubbles I saw were coming out of the brake lines.
Blob of grease on the bleeder threads for a good seal there.
Tapping the lines and the fittings to loosen up trapped air bubbles.
Having a few glasses of wine to increase operator patience
Repeating all of the above around ten times...
Speed bleeders to free up at least one of the tasks.
Having nearly a gallon of brake fluid on hand to run through the system.

i can now take this out for a test drive in the morning!!!

Tanks again for the tips!

Cap'n Ron. . .

[RichBaker]

Glad you got it, Ron.... A couple questions:

Does it matter what kind of wine???

Could beer work??

How about whiskey?

[Tor-King]

Maybe some Cap'n Morgan did the trick?

Thanks for the insight, Cap'n Ron!  I am just about to embark on the exact same project on my '93.  The information you provided will help I am sure.

Thanks!

[Capn Ron]

Glad you got it, Ron.... A couple questions:

Does it matter what kind of wine???

Could beer work??

How about whiskey?

Good wine, good beer or old whiskey...are all equally effective...to a point I suppose. 

Cap'n. . .

[Capn Ron]

Maybe some Cap'n Morgan did the trick?

Thanks for the insight, Cap'n Ron!  I am just about to embark on the exact same project on my '93.  The information you provided will help I am sure.

Thanks!

Just be systematic about all your connections...have at least a gallon of brake fluid on hand and be patient and persistant.  When you you think you have all the air out, take another pass at it.  After that...another one.

By the way, I have this 6.5 liter fluid extractor for my diesel sailboat engine...worked a treat for brake bleeding!

http://www.moellermarine.com/aftermarket/maintenance/fluid_extractors/

Cap'n Ron. . .

[simi_ed]

Ron,  I think you've stumbled onto what I have always suspected (and noticed to some degree), that No one^* really gives a shit about our stuff as much as the owner does, and the work done reflects that.  Your mention about never having had a firm brake lever until today is example #1.  Hence my "hands off^*" policy with my vehicles, and particularly MY FJ!

As to using grease on the brake bleeders, I would worry about contamination of the brake fluid.  I've seen others mention using Teflon tape to make a better seal on the bleeder threads.  I think that will be my plan in the future, starting with the slave cylinder this weekend.  

Congrats on a complete & thorough bleeding!  Now, where's the pix???  

^*Except our own RPM Randy!!!

[Capn Ron]

Ron,  I think you've stumbled onto what I have always suspected (and noticed to some degree), that No one^* really gives a shit about our stuff as much as the owner does, and the work done reflects that.  Your mention about never having had a firm brake lever until today is example #1.  Hence my "hands off^*" policy with my vehicles, and particularly MY FJ!

As to using grease on the brake bleeders, I would worry about contamination of the brake fluid.  I've seen others mention using Teflon tape to make a better seal on the bleeder threads.  I think that will be my plan in the future, starting with the slave cylinder this weekend.  

Congrats on a complete & thorough bleeding!  Now, where's the pix???  

^*Except our own RPM Randy!!!

I couldn't agree more...  I could argue that doing things right on the sailboat has huge safety implications, but on the next day, I'd argue that it's more important on the motorcycle.  Either way, no one cares more about my personal safety, enjoyment or piece of mind than I do!

Those speed bleeders are pre gooped up with a gummy thread locker...to the point where air *shouldn't* get past them...I felt okay with the grease blob on the outside.  On a wobbly stock bleeder, you have a good point!

I'm so involved with all the things involved in this trip (just applied for a passport today (may come back through Canada!!)) that if posting pictures isn't dead-simple, I've got to pass and get back in the garage.  I'm up to at least 3:00am every night working on something!  I created a gallery...browsed for a test picture...clicked the little "add picture" button and the form just clears.  Don't know if it's admin rights...file size too large...dunno.

I'm off to put the new engine through it's 4th heat cycle.  Cheers! 

Cap'n Ron. . .

[Mike 86 in San Dimas]

Pump the lever until you get a lot of resistance then put a zip tie or something similar to hold the brake lever all the way against the grip (needs to be something strong as I've had zip ties break). Remove the zip tie the following morning and the lever should be stiff as a sailor in a

I assume most wanna be mechanics like me go bananas trying to bleed the FJ bake lines the first time. I have it down pretty good now, my weapon of choice is a MityVac brake bleeding kit. It happened that I just finished installing brake and clutch lines when this thread was running. I thought had "good enough feel on the lever. But after reading this post... what the fuck, lets see what happens. I used a large zip to clamp the lever down. Forgot about it for a couple of days. Hmm lets see. Cut the tie and was shocked at how stiff the feel was. I thought I read a lot of posts on this subject but do not recall this advice. Thank you! Why does this work? Does the pressure cause the air to slowly trickle up and out the reservoir "air hole"?
Mike

[FJmonkey]

Pump the lever until you get a lot of resistance then put a zip tie or something similar to hold the brake lever all the way against the grip (needs to be something strong as I've had zip ties break). Remove the zip tie the following morning and the lever should be stiff as a sailor in a

I assume most wanna be mechanics like me go bananas trying to bleed the FJ bake lines the first time. I have it down pretty good now, my weapon of choice is a MityVac brake bleeding kit. It happened that I just finished installing brake and clutch lines when this thread was running. I thought had "good enough feel on the lever. But after reading this post... what the fuck, lets see what happens. I used a large zip to clamp the lever down. Forgot about it for a couple of days. Hmm lets see. Cut the tie and was shocked at how stiff the feel was. I thought I read a lot of posts on this subject but do not recall this advice. Thank you! Why does this work? Does the pressure cause the air to slowly trickle up and out the reservoir "air hole"?
Mike

Sometimes out the "air hole" is a good thing......

[Mike 86 in San Dimas]

Hey this is serious busness