Uh, try to not do this...when things go really, really bad.

[terryk]

OK, would like expert rider opinions on this so I can learn something new.

No need to comment on how stupid this is, believe me I get and acted that part.

I was passing a Cooper S on a downhill, hilly straight section that ends in a 20 mph left hander, about 65 degree turn. 

I pushed the FJ1200 too hard, started to try to decelerate from ~ 95 mph about 40 yards from the turn. 

I had brakes on maximum front and rear both and downshifiting for all I am worth.

Then, the rear locks up due to the down shifting. I am braking hard enough so the rear is hopping off the ground between skidding in lock up mode. Left a black dotted line of skid marks for likely 25 feet.

I have now over taxed/weighted the front suspension evoking a death wobble and taking any chance of steering through the turn while going too hot completely away.

Time to see how a FJ1200 rides off road duty as I ride up a steep grassy bank, backed off the brakes upon entering the grass.

Rode about 45 feet up the steep embankment before stopping 6 or 8 feet above the road.

The front tire slides out in loose earth when almost stopped gently allowing the bike to be leaned over. I missed all obstacles like trees and big boulders, live stock, etc.

No damage to the bike, barely any damage to me.  Three young guys helped me get the bike off the hill and back onto the road so I can continue. I continued my ride at a slower pace.

Question - What should I have done differently to get out of the front end wobble and out of a gear selection induced back tire slide ?

[FJmonkey]

Lowering your ass so your knees can take the hit.....

[bcguide]

OK
you know you the problem was caused by heading into the corner to hot. Now to your questions
Pull in the clutch when you are breaking hard with the back wheel keep the revs up a bit while you down shift
I dont have much to offer on the front end weave I think it is caused by the change in fork angle from the heavy braking so move your body back, better would be to do some work on the suspention set up
You also most likely were suffering from point fixation it makes it had to get off the brakes and get on with going around the corner.
On the street it is best to set your cornering speed early then power through the corner it saves on the laundry bill

[FJmonkey]

Terry is very much into getting his body weight into turning his FJ. He commits into corners with gusto. Coming in too hot is always a pucker moment. At some point too hot means totally fucked. Other times you may be less hot and can save it. Terry already gets his body inside to lower the center of gravity, he counter steers even if he thinks he doesn't. Too much rear brake and you lose the ass end, too much front and you drop like like a rock. The faster you can ease off the front the faster you can lighten the load on the forks and get better geometry to make the sphincter slamming corner. Other than making sure your suspension is top notch for the riding you do, judging your corners as best as you can, then what else is left than the 6 inches between your ears?

Terry, you found the balance (during a panic moment) that avoided damage to you and your bike. Kudos, lesson learned.

[terryk]

Terry is very much into getting his body weight into turning his FJ. He commits into corners with gusto. Coming in too hot is always a pucker moment. At some point too hot means totally fucked. Other times you may be less hot and can save it. Terry already gets his body inside to lower the center of gravity, he counter steers even if he thinks he doesn't. Too much rear brake and you lose the ass end, too much front and you drop like like a rock. The faster you can ease off the front the faster you can lighten the load on the forks and get better geometry to make the sphincter slamming corner. Other than making sure your suspension is top notch for the riding you do, judging your corners as best as you can, then what else is left than the 6 inches between your ears?

Terry, you found the balance (during a panic moment) that avoided damage to you and your bike. Kudos, lesson learned.

Nice summary dude and you peeked when we went riding with the girls up Palomar, etc.

Yes, I was too hot and totally fucked and lived to tell the tale without bent metal or my joint s screwed together to take the day once again.

I was an hauling ass, riding like an ass,  but still kept cool and avoided the hard parts when plowing into the corner completely out of fucking control.
Reminds me of the time I had this big chested chick on the bask of my 360 T and almost killed me and her. Nother story for nother time. Saved it.......I love bikes.

[racerman_27410]

It happens to the best of us but i am going to guess you target fixated when you should have scrubbed as much speed as possible with both front and rear brakes while actively looking for the apex.. if you downshifted too far and locked up the rear wheel then upshift.... if you dont have time to upshift then pull in the clutch so the rear wheel will turn.. you get a good gyroscopic effect when the wheel is turning.... not so much when its not.... anyway get both wheels turning......still looking for the apex..... once you see the apex  let off the front brakes and turn in...  dragging on the rear brake to tighten your line (it works as long as the wheel keep turning) 

lean the bike over and immediately look for the exit of the corner..... ride on thru the corner faster than you ever have then enjoy the adrenaline pump/rush on the back side of it.

   I almost did the same thing once passing on a short straight downhill into a right hander.... i looked at the jagged rock wall for a split second but then forced myself to look thru the turn...... i was not going to crash in front of the car i just passed..... its not good form   :empathy3



I have seen motorcycles (yes FJs ) do amazing things....with a rider that trusted his machine to do amazing things.

True story....

i passed an unwilling harley on my full DOT knobbied XT600 on rt 56 (which i know very well)... we were on the upshill section coming right off the parkway back to Cal's... the pirate gunned it when i was right beside him going uphill and it took me until right before the first corner to get him.... shit i was hauling ass but i only had two options.... make the corner or crash .... i was so pissed at the  harley rider i didnt even hit the brakes at all hoping i could suck him into crashing with me....  Now i will say i hate crashing but i will occassionally take a 50/50 gamble so i banked that XT600 (on kenda trakmaster knobbies) so far over that my footpeg threw sparks behind me all the way thru the corner! (Calvin and Eric were right behind the harley so i got witnesses)

I asked them what the Harley did when i went into that corner so fast...... they said "WTF do you think... he put on the brakes!"


My point of all this rambling being.... dont ever give up on going around a corner regardless of how fast you're going.


enjoy the Kookaloo!

[Dan Filetti]

dont ever give up on going around a corner regardless of how fast you're going.

I like this.

Dan

[andyb]

1 - Go practice braking a bit.  Sounds like you overdid things a bit while at the limit.
2 - The rear tire shouldn't lock from downshifting, even with weight transferred forwards from braking hard.  Geeeennnntly release the clutch.  Hard to do when you're panicky, but if you've made it your habit, you can manage it.
3 - Look where you want to go.  Very likely, the bike would have been fine leaning over and going through things at warp speed, it was you that wasn't!  A trackday would be a huge help here, for learning what you're really capable of (and fun as shit to boot!)
4 - The wobble... I'm assuming that you've checked tire pressure, tire condition, steering bearings, etc; and that you're not using a very aggressive triangular profile tire, and that you haven't done ridiculous adjustments to the suspension... NFI.  Worn tires or suspension is the only reason I've ever had a bike do that to me under braking.  Wouldn't have mattered if you were gentler with the clutch though, y'think?

Just practicing letting the clutch out at ridiculous speeds into semi-low gears (not in danger of overrevving the motor accidentally) smoothly would be a good start, most likely, but if you were going really hot, why were you worrying about the downshifting at all?  It's an FJ!  Jam the brakes on like you mean it, and assume you've got plenty of torque to go through the corner no matter what gear you're in.  If you want more braking force from the rear wheel, use the brake, not the motor!

[Klavdy]

Go get some lessons.
There's heaps of classes online for all levels of ability.
Better than spending money on bike mods,the skills stay with you, the mods stay on the bike and they are no good if you don't know how to best make use of them.

[terryk]

Go get some lessons.
There's heaps of classes online for all levels of ability.
Better than spending money on bike mods,the skills stay with you, the mods stay on the bike and they are no good if you don't know how to best make use of them.

Agreed, time to go back to the track for some additional tips in a structured class setting.

[SlowOldGuy]

... but if you were going really hot, why were you worrying about the downshifting at all?  It's an FJ!  Jam the brakes on like you mean it, and assume you've got plenty of torque to go through the corner no matter what gear you're in.  If you want more braking force from the rear wheel, use the brake, not the motor!

YES!!!!!  Excellent answer Andy!  Don't waste time, effort and brain power trying to downshift.  Engine braking is a poor substitute for rear braking.  Engine braking is much more difficult to control and modulate than the brake.  

Frank also had very good points.  Lots of important information here.

Thank you Terry for having the guts to post this and ask for opinions.  Glad the outcome was positive.

DavidR.

[ddlewis]

dont ever give up on going around a corner regardless of how fast you're going.

I like this.

Dan

Yep.  At the crucial sphincter clinching moments if you give so much as a split second to glance for a soft landing spot.. well..  you better hope there is one.

[Tom Renda]

Reminds me of the time I was sitting parked at the wheel of a UTS bus in Charlotteville VA in 1979 at layover at the bottom of a hill on a beautiful spring day. 

Here comes some guy around the curve too hot on a Triumph 650 or 750 twin.  Bump bump frumpity bump bump bump.  He flips the bike over right in front of the bus and onto the grass to my right.  He was OK.  Bike not so much.

Glad you lived to tell about it. 

Yeah, I'd go do some track time WITH THAT BIKE.

(Or else get a Mini Cooper S!)

[baldy3853]

Terry
Know how you feel I wasn't so lucky I was on day 2 of a 10 day Assault on Tassie last yr on my FJR when this dumb m8 (Mein Fuhrer) us acting like 20yr olds full of cum and bad manners going to fast on a wet clay rd when uh oh he started to fish tail, then high sided his bike, in trying to take evasive measures I went down like a bag of shyte a 95 kilometer ride in the back of an ambulance and 8 more  days on a bike round Tassie covered in gaffer tape was enough to suggest to me that it was time to grow up and slow down so not as many sphincter clutching moments but still have fun but boy I sure do miss those moments maybe this yr @ the WCR might be able to enjoy a few of them again
Lord Baldy

[ApriliaBill]

I'm going to say some things here that may not be too popular, but it's not out of a "better than you attitude". But we are the guardians of special bikes and the ambasadors of a mistunderstood hobby. By the way, I love the info these guys are giving and hope I listen well for any future issues. But as you already stated... maybe a little fast? One of my bikes is a modern Aprilia, they have a slipper clutch and won't let the tire skip, but I would have been in the same position, because my riding skills are definately not what most on this site have.

Guys, keep one thing in mind, the roads we ride, no matter how good, are not track conditions. Even if you made it through that corner, what if some putz had left something on the road, or road carnage was present.
I was recently on the way to work, and there is a reduced radius on ramp I hit every morning, usually at a brisk pace, this a.m. somebody had spread  rabbit intrails clear across the on ramp with no way to scrub speed, slid way wide and was lucky not to lose it.

All I'm saying is, gather skills, but always remember, these are not prepped tracks, and people way less intelligent than you, leave all kinds of crap on the road, be safe...

On anther note, you guys have bikes that were way over engineered for the time, and along with the great advice given by several of these guys, add something a friend once told me, Trust your bike, a lot of times when in a situation, we try to man handle the issue, when all we have to do is relax and let the bike do what it was designed to do. Even my slow ass has been too hot in a corner, I get down low, relax my elbows and let the bike do it's thing, and try to keep my dumbass from fixating, just ride it out.

I have so much to learn form you guys, so dial it back a hair, so we can continue to learn from your expierences...