Good article on saving the bacon in a turn

[SlowOldGuy]

Then what are we doin the other 10% of the time??   -don`t say leaning unless ya hands are off tha handlebars - hmmmm.....how come I can steer my bike around some curves (no hands)  just by weighting the footrests?  counterweighting?

No, you're actually getting the bike to counter steer on its own.  You can get it to lean with your body, but if you're at speed, the lean will force the bars to a counter steering position automatically.  If you're going slow enough, the bars will just flop over, but you'll be headed for the ground by that time.

DavidR.

[terryk]

Then what are we doin the other 10% of the time??   -don`t say leaning unless ya hands are off tha handlebars - hmmmm.....how come I can steer my bike around some curves (no hands)  just by weighting the footrests?  counterweighting?

No, you're actually getting the bike to counter steer on its own.  You can get it to lean with your body, but if you're at speed, the lean will force the bars to a counter steering position automatically.  If you're going slow enough, the bars will just flop over, but you'll be headed for the ground by that time.

DavidR.

Well stated David R. And correct. Yesterday to prove this to myself, again, I consciously initiated my turns using lean and lower body. This force the tire to offset inducing the counter steer. Not intuitive but it is the physics.

[The General]

Well stated David R. And correct. Yesterday to prove this to myself, again, I consciously initiated my turns using lean and lower body. This force the tire to offset inducing the counter steer. Not intuitive but it is the physics.
[/quote]

Of course, you are correct. (I luv this site) However, from this whole enjoyable thread i particularly wish to bring attention to item 6 from zwartie for a true "two cents" worth - but I`ll reply correctly cause that fluffy is a mean lookin bastard.

[andyb]

You can initiate a turn without any countersteering effect at all.  All that has to happen is the center of gravity has to move to the inside of the contact patches.  Countersteering just accomplishes this very efficently, by moving the contact patches, rather than trying to shove a few hundred pounds around.

[fj11.5]

The word physics has been thrown around a bit , try this, take the front wheel out of a decent sized push bike, hold the wheel verticle by the axle, have someone spin it, now try and lean the wheel, bet you find it difficult, now counter steer the wheel, leans over much easier , basic physics

[1tinindian]

We can't talk about this stuff too much. It's a good reminder.

I totally agree.
My son and I have some very good talks about "HOW" to ride a bike.
With a better understanding of how your bike will respond to YOUR inputs, can only have a positive affect on your overall riding ability.

Topics like this are the reason that makes this site great!
I can't imagine that on any H-D site, that they would be discussing the merits of a bikes handling and how to put it to practice.

I'd suspect that they would be more concerned about hanging the latest and greatest chrome do-dad off their HOGs, or how to make that tractor sound even louder, for no particular reason.

Leon

[The General]

6. Did I mention to look where you want to go? We could get into rolling on the throttle .......

Yeah totally agree, but as a bloke said ta me once "when is a communication a `communication` - when it`s given? or when it`s received? - Got me arm twisted ta do a safety course from a good mate once. (done more since) He said even though I`m a smart arse and think I`m shit hot, he guaranteed I`d get somethin, even if it`s ever so small - out of it.
...........Well I (reluctantly) did the full Mick Doohan day (On the Gold Coast - cheaper than the great EMBROIDERED Polo shirt ya get) It involved videos, lectures, pract demos & everyone got a turn at leadin the pack thru some awesome twisties with coaches judging your every move. They couldn`t find any fault with me, and they hadn`t noticed my poor vision. (When I`m so far up meself I have trouble seeing) - I had earlier dragged a coach aside to discuss personally this 'lookin where ya goin' instruction. (Cause shit, what dickhead doesn`t?) As a result of the conversation he bought the subject up in more detail (though only with me ??) - and here is the communication I heard, then during a bored moment on tha road, I thought I`d give it a go.
"Focus on the point where the left hand side of tha road meets tha right hand side on every bend"
It`s a little pinpoint of bitumen that i thought I already watched, naturally when ridin. Nope.. on some bends I had to look up unnaturally and really needed to adjust me helmet cause on some it got in tha way. The diference it majically made to my line was incredible and surprising. (kinda like countersteering cause it pushed my bike more ta the centre of the lane without me thinkin) I was able ta go a hell of a lot faster (suspect that wasn`t tha intention of the safety course) and when me mate grilled me next day about the course, I naturally told im I got nuthin out of it! - but I did buy a new helmet that month!!

[glfredrick]

the part in the article that is most important is no abrupt inputs , don't chop throttle or grab a handful of brake, keep the bike settled thru corners .

I think most of us already know this.

That's right. Also not too much acceleration (if any) in the corners. That brings a lot of people down, including myself. As a former sportbike instructor, the most important things we taught were:

1. Suspension setup (half the day!)
2. C.G. (Center of Gravity) - Prep for the corners and GET OFF THE SEAT and get that C.G down and inside the corner.
3. Looking through the corner
4. Throttle control

We can't talk about this stuff too much. It's a good reminder.

Here's an on-bike video of my instructor:
http://www.dskuhn.com/oleben.wmv

That's waht I was talking about...  Great video...  Love the feeling when you come hard out of a corner, especially when you sky the front wheel while still sideways.  of course, about the time the rear tire slides is when most guys are ready to bail...  And, if you panic, you get to, whether or not you want to!

[glfredrick]

Leaning the body really doesnt steer the bike much at all... but what body positioning does is changes the physics of the downward and sideward forces of the bike (tyres) onto the road, by moving the combined centre of gravity of the bike and rider; this is why the superbike racers body shift (to corner faster, not to steer). However just getting into the knee down position on the bike wont steer it very efficiently around a corner (if at all) - if you think it does then you might need to realise that moving sideways will pull your opposing hand back on the handle bars (which is counter steering!).
The only way to get the bike into a position where the knee down body position makes a difference is by using the counter steer method to turn in.

Just to clarify one thing: leaning/hanging off the bike - knee down, etc. accomplishes one thing only - it allows you to keep the bike further upright than if you didn't - allowing you to take the corner faster before you run out of tire/grip.  It is about speed.  That is all. 

And, this is not a "basic" conversation about tip-in steering, which is what "countersteering" is.  Like downhill skiing, one must initiate a "fall" before counter forces take effect and the physics of a turn work in the rider's favor.  That is what countersteering does -- initiate a fall by "tipping" the bike so as to begin lean.  the more it is countersteered the more it tips, the faster it generates lean, the faster the corner can be handled.

BUT...

In "emergency cornering," coming in too hot, etc., one needs to be able to handle the maxium level of speed, which requires the maximum level of lowering center of gravity, which is why one shifts weight, steers with the body, etc.