Good article on saving the bacon in a turn

[craigo]

Ahh, deflect and admit no wrong doing.

Typical liberal narcissist,

CraigO

To everyone else, sorry for the thread hijack

[bugboy]

I think they're both "misinformed".   If you find yourself in trouble in a turn ----- "lay'er down".  All those H-D fags can't be wrong.

[Dan Filetti]

It really is like we are on two different planets -did you read the article?  Craigo's comments summed up my feeling on the personal crap.

To the point of the thread. One simply can not refute what I said, and justified with a cogent, relevant, article that describes a test with a result that illustrates exactly what I said, if not more.  Let's review what I did say, shall we?  I said:    

"I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bigger impact than weighting the pegs.  I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs."

Notice I did not say "weighting the pegs has no impact", nor did I say  "moving your body/ weighting the pegs is not required for great turns"

Somehow Terry's response seems to be that my opinion of this would change if I got more training...

Here are some quotes from that article that I thought were relevant and to my point:

"As a proponent of counter steering, Keith finally got tired of hearing about "body steering" from his students who had attended other track schools, and built an experimental motorcycle to allow riders to prove to themselves whether body steering or counter steering was the dominant cornering input."

"But is the primary steering input through the handlebar grips, or through some other part of the bike, say foot pressure on the pegs, knee pressure against the tank, or body weight shifted in the saddle?"

Then: "If you figure out how to body steer, be sure and tell me"

and

"...all that elbow-waving, knee-slamming, shoulder-leaning body English may be good for your heart and muscles, but it doesn't do much to control the bike. Two wheeled motorcycles are balanced and steered by counter steering the front wheel, just like Wilbur Wright said."

hmmmm, wait a second, that all sounds familiar, where have I heard those thoughts before?  Hell, Code goes further on the matter and seems to suggest is has little to no input on steering.

Shall we argue whether or not the sky is blue now?




Dan

[Lotsokids]

Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. 

As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.

I hate getting into the middle of a battle. But Terry, you are the one that first threw the first personal attack out there. Like I tell my kids - "Don't poke the bear."

[terryk]

It really is like we are on two different planets -did you read the article?  Craigo's comments summed up my feeling on the personal crap.

To the point of the thread. One simply can not refute what I said, and justified with a cogent, relevant, article that describes a test with a result that illustrates exactly what I said, if not more.  Let's review what I did say, shall we?  I said:    

"I agree with this, Pushing on the bars has a much bigger impact than weighting the pegs.  I have done done both, and pushing on the bars makes a MUCH bigger difference than weighting the pegs."

Notice I did not say "weighting the pegs has no impact", nor did I say  "moving your body/ weighting the pegs is not required for great turns"

Somehow Terry's response seems to be that my opinion of this would change if I got more training...

Here are some quotes from that article that I thought were relevant and to my point:

"As a proponent of counter steering, Keith finally got tired of hearing about "body steering" from his students who had attended other track schools, and built an experimental motorcycle to allow riders to prove to themselves whether body steering or counter steering was the dominant cornering input."

"But is the primary steering input through the handlebar grips, or through some other part of the bike, say foot pressure on the pegs, knee pressure against the tank, or body weight shifted in the saddle?"

Then: "If you figure out how to body steer, be sure and tell me"

and

"...all that elbow-waving, knee-slamming, shoulder-leaning body English may be good for your heart and muscles, but it doesn't do much to control the bike. Two wheeled motorcycles are balanced and steered by counter steering the front wheel, just like Wilbur Wright said."

hmmmm, wait a second, that all sounds familiar, where have I heard those thoughts before?  Hell, Code goes further on the matter and seems to suggest is has little to no input on steering.

Shall we argue whether or not the sky is blue now?




Dan

Dan, Dan, dDn. You do not have much of a point here. Your Font manipulation is severly retarded BTW. I am not going to argue with you on this as you clearly are lucky to survive on the road as you have more rant than technique.

[terryk]

Well dan, go get some training and you will learn to ride like an experienced rider. 

As usual Dan, you like personal attacks because that is all you can muster with your abilities.

I hate getting into the middle of a battle. But Terry, you are the one that first threw the first personal attack out there. Like I tell my kids - "Don't poke the bear."

Dude....go push a bike.

[Dan Filetti]

Dan, Dan, dDn. You do not have much of a point here. Your Font manipulation is severly retarded BTW. I am not going to argue with you on this as you clearly are lucky to survive on the road as you have more rant than technique.

Whatever let's you sleep at night Terry.

I've long known that arguing with you is pointless.  You're just too smart for me.

Dan

[andyb]

Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?

What matters is if the bike leans.  Then you can turn the bars into it to maintain your balance, and that's when turning happens.  How you initiate that lean can happen in a number of ways!  Countersteering lets you move the tires under the center of gravity, which is always quicker than physically moving the entire center of gravity.  Saying that it's the only possible way to lean a bike is just showing that one has never had an unruly passenger, nor rode in a stiff, gusty crosswind.  Or had a bike tip over in the garage even, the forces don't actually change because you're not moving, but the effect does.

Countersteer HARD at no speed, and very little happens.  The front might move a pinch, just due to trail.  Now have someone kick the bike from the side, and you'll fall over.  That's a leaning effect, the center of gravity is being directly moved.  Park the same bike on a mild slope with some sand on it, and have someone kick the tires near the ground, sideways.  The bike will fall over (and hopefully break the prick's legs!), but that's an example of moving the contact patch so that it's not under the center of gravity, just as countersteering does.  If you want the same effect while moving, give it a great big fistful of gas on cold tires, and the contact patch in the back will jump sideways a good bit... same effect, just at the other end.

It's the same with using the front vs the rear brake, or using engine braking, or using the clutch to slip the tire (either direction), or using various types of oil.  Different tools for different situations.  They're all viable, but some are much better than others depending on the situation.

In a panic, when you've come in too hot or have a midcorner obstruction, the best thing is usually just controlling your vision, and looking at the line you want.  Do that, and probably 90% of the rest falls into place.

[rktmanfj]

     

[Dan Filetti]

Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?

It is not binary, I get this.  I simply said that the bulk of the steering comes from counter steering.

[pdxfj]

Yup.. it's winter.. people stuck in the house.. can't get out and ride.. so the flame wars begin..

[terryk]

Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?

It is not binary, I get this.  I simply said that the bulk of the steering comes from counter steering.

The bulk of the steering comes from counter steering. Sure Dan, that is why every qualified racer never uses any of his body to steer the bike through a turn, it is simply a waste of time and energy. Brilliant theory. Bravo.

No Dan, every one knows that steering a motorcycle requires multiple inputs of which counter steering is one. If you are wrenching on the bars to get turned you are not doing this steering thing very well. And, being tight on the bars in a turn with over reliance on counter steering is a sign of someone who does not get it and will never be smooth.

[terryk]

Why is everyone so convinced that it's just one or the other?

What matters is if the bike leans.  Then you can turn the bars into it to maintain your balance, and that's when turning happens.  How you initiate that lean can happen in a number of ways!  Countersteering lets you move the tires under the center of gravity, which is always quicker than physically moving the entire center of gravity.  Saying that it's the only possible way to lean a bike is just showing that one has never had an unruly passenger, nor rode in a stiff, gusty crosswind.  Or had a bike tip over in the garage even, the forces don't actually change because you're not moving, but the effect does.

Countersteer HARD at no speed, and very little happens.  The front might move a pinch, just due to trail.  Now have someone kick the bike from the side, and you'll fall over.  That's a leaning effect, the center of gravity is being directly moved.  Park the same bike on a mild slope with some sand on it, and have someone kick the tires near the ground, sideways.  The bike will fall over (and hopefully break the prick's legs!), but that's an example of moving the contact patch so that it's not under the center of gravity, just as countersteering does.  If you want the same effect while moving, give it a great big fistful of gas on cold tires, and the contact patch in the back will jump sideways a good bit... same effect, just at the other end.

It's the same with using the front vs the rear brake, or using engine braking, or using the clutch to slip the tire (either direction), or using various types of oil.  Different tools for different situations.  They're all viable, but some are much better than others depending on the situation.

In a panic, when you've come in too hot or have a midcorner obstruction, the best thing is usually just controlling your vision, and looking at the line you want.  Do that, and probably 90% of the rest falls into place.

+1 on this analysis

[winddancer]

I know i am new and only have been riding since July but in training class that was taught by CHP instructors was counter steering is the best way for cornering this link i think explains it the best. even the veterans in the course said they did it and did not realize that this is what they were doing. hope this helps if not sorry for my 2 cents

How To Ride A Motorcycle - Countersteering And Turning
 

[Dan Filetti]

I know i am new and only have been riding since July but in training class that was taught by CHP instructors was counter steering is the best way for cornering this link i think explains it the best. even the veterans in the course said they did it and did not realize that this is what they were doing. hope this helps if not sorry for my 2 cents

Don't apologize, your input is every bit as welcome and valuable as others.  Your CHP instructors, and the the folks in the link I posted, and most rational people in the civilized word are all in agreement; counter steering contributes principally, -but not exclusively, (best olive branch I can offer Terry) to changing the direction of a motorcycle at speeds in excess of +/- 20mph.

I believe the link I posted talks about at length, if not proves, fairly conclusively that the dominant input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering.

If it were not, then everyone who rode that No BS motorcycle, or at least someone, would have been able to steer it with the fixed bars.  Fact is no one could, not even an ex racer/ current instructor or a motorcycle magazine editor.  The conclusion to draw from this is clear: the dominant input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering. 

For clarity, I do believe that to turn smoothly, and especially at race speeds, the rider's body must move around on the bike through the corners.  weighting the inside peg, dropping the inside shoulder, and dropping a but cheek off the seat seems to add stability, and yes, smoothness to turns.  In fact I regularly do these things (never said I didn't).   

However I am under no illusions, my original, unwavering point remains, doing all of these so called, "body steering techniques" without counter steering, will categorically NOT be effective at turning a motorcycle.  Whereas doing none of them and only counter steering, WILL change the direction of the motorcycle, if not smoothly, effectively. 

The conclusion to draw from this is clear: the dominant (but not only!) input on changing the direction of a motorcycle is counter steering. 

I know Terry will not be able to leave this alone, it's personal for him it seems, but I'm going to do my best to leave this alone from here.  My point has been made many times, and I believe most folks, would agree with me.  That is enough.

Dan