FZR Front Wheel question

[hein]

You're not supporting the load with a 1mm. bushing. Youve simply added 1mm. to the thickness of the inner bearing race. I used 8740 series chrome moly for these pieces and with an interference fit they essentially are now part of the bearing race. Using your reasoning the use of an AN washer under the head of a capscrew in a high torque application should cause failure.

Hein.

[rktmanfj]

Sorry. The thought that my life depended on a axle bushing, 1mm thick, supporting the loads incurred by the front wheel, on a fully loaded 800+lb motorcycle heeled over in a 80mph sweeper...gives me the shivers.

Oh what the hell...It's only the front wheel....

I agree with Pat.  No way I would consider that.

But hey, it's okay on your bike... just let me know before we ride together, okay?

[hein]

I'm not suggesting you make the bushing out of balsam wood because it will compress and fail. What I don't understand is what part of the described bushing will fail. Its already pressed into the race so it can't move in that direction. The flange,center spacer, ls/ spacer and speedo drive prevent any lateral movement. If you think that the bushing will fail due to compression loading from the axle rest assured that the axle will deform before the bushing will. Do a rockwell test on the axle and the bushing and you'l find the axle is much softer and weaker than the bushing.

If thinwall bushings still scare you I'd strongly suggest you avoid flying or driving a car.   Hein

[Pat Conlon]

You're not supporting the load with a 1mm. bushing. Youve simply added 1mm. to the thickness of the inner bearing race.

Bzzzzzt. Wrong answer. Follow the load path.

[hein]

I've followed the load path and the most vulnerable part is not the bushing its the actual balls in the bearing. At any point in the rotation of the wheel  the bushing carries the compression load but since the inner race , spacers and axle are not turning there is no axial load. The surface of the bushing is much greater then the surface of the balls contacting the inner and outer race at any given point of rotation and compression loading.

I doubt that I can convince you of this but I enjoy trying.

Hein

[Pat Conlon]

Ok, let me ask you this... Is it safe to say that you are introducing another "potential" failure point in the load path?
Yes or No.
If your answer is no then we just disagree.
If your answer is yes, then I gotta ask a follow up question: Why? All this for a 1/2 inch wider front rim?

1) Why not just do the job right and get a '87/88 FZR rim made for the 15mm axle or...   
2) Get a front end designed for the 17mm axle and convert.

  If you can convince yourself that there is enough redundant cast aluminum material in you lower fork legs, hog out the holes and re-tap for a 17mm axle.

Motorcycling is dangerous enough without us introducing more "potential" points of failure.

[ccsct203]

I used a 1992 FZR front wheel om 1988 FZR front forks
I believe that is 3.5"

Well, of course that would fit... it's when fitting the FZR wheel to stock FJ forks that axle size becomes an issue.

The '87-'88 are the only ones that bolt right up.  Been there, tried that.  Damned eBay!    

The other FZR wheels have a bigger axle.  Wheel bearings with the FZR o/d and FJ i/d are apparently not available.  Using bushings with the FJ axle is not a good idea.

AFAIK, all the FZR1000 front wheels were 3.5" wide.

no... the bearing ARE available
The FZR forks I used are the same basically as the newer FJ1200
I was told I could not do what I did because of the axle size for the two were not compatible and the bearings with the OD and ID i needed were not made.
i found them and the Non-compatible 1988 fork and the 1991 wheel are proudly on my bike for nearly 2 years now

here is my info from my old post

Ok... I'm updating my FJ1100's front end to a 1988 FZR1000 and what do I do.. Stupid me buys a 1991 front rim.
The problem as many of you know is the bearing size... 15mm x 40mm x 13mm and  guess what they don't make any bearings that size. I did much research and I found a "deep groove track roller bearing" which is sealed both sides and is good up to 70,000 rpm. load and impact rating is very high because of the high side impact on track bearings. The size however is 15x40x11mm. 2mm per bearing narrower then oem.
I figured I'll try them.
I'm doing a new front wheel and I bought all new collars, seals and center spacer and as stated bearings too.
I have a 18" rear rim with the modifications to the carrier bearing spacer,  construction of the center spacer and modified brake caliper bracket as I found online.

[SlowOldGuy]

Might help to post the bearing number.

Or are you saying you used '88 FZR forks and a '92 FJ front wheel? 

Sounds like you may have done something different than what's under discussion here.

DavidR.

[ccsct203]

LR202NPP Track Roller Bearing 15x40x11 Sealed Track Bearings


   
Part Number: Kit8379
Our Low Price: $4.9


Quantity:   

LR202NPP Single Row ball bearing
One Bearing





LR202NPP Track Roller Single Row Bearing, bearing is a Sealed
Item: LR202NPP Bearing
Type: Track Roller Single Row Bearing
Size: 15mmx 40mmx 11mm
Inner Diameter: 15mm
Outer Diameter: 40mm
Width : 11mm
Quantity: One bearing
Load rating Cw: 6,500 N
Load rating Cow: 3,300 N

Dimensions (mm)
d   D   B   C   Rs
15   40   11   11   0.6

[rktmanfj]

Good on ya, if you found one that will work!

I searched at two bearing supply houses a few years ago and we found nothing that would do the job.

[Harvy]

I think I'd rather use a 15 x 42 x 13 bearing and take a 1mm bore cut out of the bearing housing  in the wheel than have to use a narrower bearing and either a 4mm longer inner spacer or 2 2mm longer outer spacers.?


Harvy

[hein]

Pat, I'm not suggesting another potential failure point, so we disagree. I'm just responding to a point concerning the possible use of the 17mm. FZR wheel. If I was to do it I would make an axle that would use the stock threads on the left slider and would bore the right side slider axle hole to 17mm. As you noted its only 1mm. bigger in the radius so I fail to see any safety concerns on this point. My FZ1 has much less material around the right side of the axle support area.

The other option I suggested seems to have caused the most controversy. I'm not trying to be a controversial dickhead or a know it all but I'm simply trying to grasp what the saftey issue is. For the life of me I can't see how a captive bushing of material that is both stronger and more resiliant than the axle and which is pressed into a bearing race with 100% contact and being unable to go anywhere causes a safety issue. The surface area of the bushing when subjected to a point load is greater than the surface area of the balls in the bearing when subjected to the same load. I've been in the mechanical and metal fabrication trades for 45yrs. and I have observed the same application in many uses, not just in repairs but also in original design.

I'm never too old to learn so I'm more than happy to listen. Please explain what can happen using this method that
causes you to fear failure.      Hein

[SlowOldGuy]

Somewhat related to this discussion.
I worked on a guy's FJ that had a YZF 17 inch rear wheel upgrade.  There was a noise in the rear that we couldn't isolate.  I think it was some kind of clunk, but don't reall recall now.

When I removed the rear wheel, one of the bearings fell right out.  Somehow the bearing had wallowed out it's bore and was not longer a pressed fit.

So, a few questions:
1. How did this happen?  Possibly cocked on installation and too much force used that slightly increased the diameter and lost the interference?

2. Wear and or stress caused the bearing to open up the interference diameter slightly?  Would this have continued to degrade and caused even more slop eventually?

3.  How do you fix something like this short of getting a new wheel?  Using something like the bearing  "collar" that's being dicussed?

DavidR.

[rktmanfj]

Somewhat related to this discussion.
I worked on a guy's FJ that had a YZF 17 inch rear wheel upgrade.  There was a noise in the rear that we couldn't isolate.  I think it was some kind of clunk, but don't reall recall now.

When I removed the rear wheel, one of the bearings fell right out.  Somehow the bearing had wallowed out it's bore and was not longer a pressed fit.

So, a few questions:
1. How did this happen?  Possibly cocked on installation and too much force used that slightly increased the diameter and lost the interference?

2. Wear and or stress caused the bearing to open up the interference diameter slightly?  Would this have continued to degrade and caused even more slop eventually?

3.  How do you fix something like this short of getting a new wheel?  Using something like the bearing  "collar" that's being dicussed?

DavidR.

In theory, if indeed the diameter had increased, I would consider having a welder lay a bead or two around the surface, then have the inner surface machined to the proper diameter (I don't have a lathe  ).  In practice, it'd probably be a lot cheaper to find another wheel... they're relatively cheap.

As to Hein's discussion, I would be concerned that at some point, the bushing would lose its interference fit to the bearing inner race, and spin.  Such may be completely harmless, or it may end up seizing to the axle or eventually overheating the bearing.  Being a front wheel, I'd rather not find out.  I think we all agree the the FJ loads the front end a lot more than the average sportbike.

JMO

[hein]

I'm not sure at this point how much credibility my ideas have based on the response I've received concerning my previous ideas but bare with me and perhaps I can toss out some ideas in regards to the DavidR. question and to address JMO's concern regarding the "bushing" spinning.

As to the potential of the bushing spinning consider the fact that once the axle is installed and torqued down the only thing that should spin would be the wheel, the outer race of the bearing which is a press fit in the bore of the wheel,the actual balls in the bearing and the bearing seperation cage of the bearing. The axle can't spin and this is the component that locks the r/s spacer to the inner race of the bearing and to the center spacer then to the l/s  bearing and then to the inner part of the speedo drive. So as your bike rolls down the road none of the components locked to the axle are turning. A bushing pressed into the inner race is also static so I fail to see how it could possibly spin or brake loose. Grab a ball bearing with your thumb and index finger by the inner race and spin the outer race. This is your wheel in motion.

The feasability of repairing a damaged bearing bore in the wheel is a question of economics. Repair costs versus replacement. If replacement wheels are cheap that would be the route to take. If replacement wheels are expensive or hard to find it can be repaired. Both welding the bore or sleeving the bore will work but either way machining of the wheel will be required. The choises for machining  require either a lathe that can swing a 17" wheel or a milling machine with an indexable boring head. The hardest part of the job would be indexing or "clocking" the wheel to pick up the bore centreline, without seeing the wheel and the damage I can't say how easy this would be. Using the undamged other side as a reference might be possible or if the OD of the damaged bore is not damaged this could be used. If you elect to build up the damaged area by welding any refence points will warp and be useless for the purpose of maching. Machining and sleeving can work provided there is enough meat to work with.

Hopefully this makes sense to both questions but I would certainly get another informed opinion before attempting a repair.

Hein.