The Germans - Tops???

mz_rider · August 09, 2011, 11:45:42 AM

MV also made 4 cyl road bikes and the 500cc V8 was a Moto Guzzi.

Stuart

andyb · August 09, 2011, 11:49:30 AM

Honestly I don't think the germans really did anything groundbreaking.

They simply jumped ahead a bit on the curve, we all know that the OEM's tend to keep some performance up their sleeves for next year... BMW didn't have a bike on the market in that class, so they jumped in and slaughtered everyone. Wish there was a non-abs/tc/stupidelectronics version available, preferrably cheaper, but meh, there you go. It's not like they're doing it for free.

axiom-r · August 09, 2011, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: Arnie on August 09, 2011, 09:23:42 AM
BMW has been making inline 4's for many decades. In BMW bikes, maybe just since the K100s in mid '80s.
And, as for the Japanese pioneering inline 4's.... What about MV Agusta ? Yes, it was racing only but so were Honda's 4s up unitl 1969. I also seem to remember that Henderson made inline 4's way back when, too.

Arnie

No doubt their were other inline fours but, BMW's inline motors were longitudinal and MV didn't make the 350 four until around 76 if I am not mistaken... One of my favorite sounds is the MV 750 America!

"Since the advent of the Honda CB750 straight-four engine, straight-fours have dominated the non-cruiser street motorcycle segments." Wiki

It is this engine arrangement developed by Honda that revolutionized the motorcycle at the time.... My point is, BMW did "one up" the design. Their motor is said to be the smoothest most powerful motor for its displacement. That said, a TON of development, testing and base knowledge for that motor configuration was already done. They started at a higher level thanks to all the work that had come before they gave up on trying to make their other designs competitive and went to the tried and true upright inline four to achieve performance on a competitive level..

axiom-r · August 09, 2011, 02:00:40 PM

Quote from: axiom-r on August 09, 2011, 11:58:03 AMNo doubt their were other inline fours but, BMW's inline motors were longitudinal and MV didn't make the 350 four until around 76 if I am not mistaken...

I am mistaken... there were 4 cylinder MV race bikes well before the CB750 Honda and one 600cc touring bike revealed in 1966 in Milan.....

BUT...... Honda started competing at the Isle of Mann in 1959 using a 6-cylinder 125cc and a 4-cylinder 250cc. They were unable to develop their chassis to cope with these motors until 1961....(when Hailwood gave them their first championships). So, I am now unsure about who built the first upright multi-cylinder race bike as we know it today... Was it MV or Honda?

Perhaps Honda gets all the credit because they were the first to put a reliable four-cylinder production bike up for sale.. All though the clearly "imitated" design early on (as did Kawasaki) they deserve credit for development and innovation too.

You learn something new everyday.

Pat Conlon · August 09, 2011, 05:25:55 PM

Quote from: ribbert on August 08, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
It used to be said of the Japanese that they are "imitators" not "innovators" and very good they are at it.....

Imitators not innovators? Bullshit. Honda builds, and still builds, the finest engines in the world. Period. .
If it wasn't for Japanese engineering technology, we would still be stuck with 5,000 rpm pushrod engines....aka airhead Boxers...
Yea, anyone with enough money can build a fleet of prototype racing engines, but the true test is putting that design into production, and making them 200-500k mile reliable for us mortals to enjoy.

Kudos to BMW for some bitchen bikes, but my money is on the Japanese.

FJTillDeath · August 10, 2011, 12:59:05 AM

Okay I will admit the Germans definitely did well with the BMW but I dont think the Japs are innovaters as Pat has said.

Although just for some interest nobody had mentioned anything about Ducatti and buells and harleys, the likes as in anything non jap or non german....

WestOzXJR · August 10, 2011, 05:11:15 AM

Quote from: mz_rider on August 09, 2011, 11:45:42 AM
...and the 500cc V8 was a Moto Guzzi.
Stuart

Yep, you're right, my mistake...

WestOzXJR · August 10, 2011, 05:16:44 AM

Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 09, 2011, 05:25:55 PM
Bullshit. Honda builds, and still builds, the finest engines in the world. Period.

This one's for Pat... Hitler lost his motorcycle. Then got a BMW GS.

Pat Conlon · August 10, 2011, 12:22:11 PM

Haaa! Very Good Oz!

I hang with the Mazda crowd and we soup up Miata's and RX-7's with Chevy LS3 engines. A hoot to drive.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/

Here's Adolph's reaction when he found out someone installed another Wankel in his RX-7:
Hitler reacts to the Rotards

Cheers!

hein · August 10, 2011, 12:37:32 PM

Quote from: FJt!llD3@th on August 10, 2011, 12:59:05 AM
Okay I will admit the Germans definitely did well with the BMW but I dont think the Japs are innovaters as Pat has said.

The Japanese aren't innovative?? What would you call the oval piston NR series Honda engine?

rktmanfj · August 10, 2011, 01:04:55 PM

Quote from: FJt!llD3@th on August 10, 2011, 12:59:05 AM
Okay I will admit the Germans definitely did well with the BMW but I dont think the Japs are innovaters as Pat has said.

Quote from: hein on August 10, 2011, 12:37:32 PM
The Japanese aren't innovative?? What would you call the oval piston NR series Honda engine?

More or less, a failure, but at least they has the stones to try it...

terryk · August 10, 2011, 01:11:29 PM

Yup Japanese are not innovative

, then again - Japan's population is only 42 percent of that of the U.S., its ratio of patents per million population is 3.5 times higher than the United States — and indeed the highest such ratio of all the worlds country. Many of the patents are monitized, money makers.

Dan Filetti · August 10, 2011, 04:34:49 PM

Quote from: Pat Conlon on August 10, 2011, 12:22:11 PM
Haaa! Very Good Oz!

I hang with the Mazda crowd and we soup up Miata's and RX-7's with Chevy LS3 engines. A hoot to drive.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/V8/

Here's Adolph's reaction when he found out someone installed another Wankel in his RX-7:
Hitler reacts to the Rotards

Cheers!

"Off the line the Rotary does not have enough torque to pull the panties off your drunken sister!" -Excellent!

Made me laugh.

Dan

nvmike24 · August 10, 2011, 08:00:59 PM

Dang Pat, stop sugar coating your words and tell us what you really think!

hein · August 11, 2011, 01:13:32 PM

[ The Japanese aren't innovative?? What would you call the oval piston NR series Honda engine?

More or less, a failure, but at least they has the stones to try it...
Correct on both counts. From a racing and commercial perspective the NR didn't fare too well. Even though the streetlegal version sold out for big dollars in very limited numbers I doubt that they recovered any useful amount of money considering their r&d costs. I'm still curious as to were one would take the cylinders to if a rebore or even a honing job was required.

News:

The Germans - Tops???

rktmanfj