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Valve guide oil seals

Started by swiftnick, November 07, 2022, 02:16:27 PM

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RPM - Robert

Mechanically, it doesn't but if you have them numeral side up the cam lobe will wear the number off.

swiftnick

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 10:35:38 AM
Mechanically, it doesn't but if you have them numeral side up the cam lobe will wear the number off.
Yeah, that's what I figured. I always mic shims when swapping them out and never rely on the number. I have sometimes surface ground shims to get a thickness I don't have on hand. When I do that, I always make sure the ground surface is down. I've not hardness checked them to know if they are through or just case hardened.

And on a positive note, I just finished up putting everything back together and she started right up. Cloud of smoke as usual but I expected that from the oil that had leaked past the old seals as well as the oil I coated the new seals with to ease assembly. Tomorrows start should be smoke free.

Pat Conlon

Well done Nick, thanks for the write up....after all the comments are posted, would you mind if I transferred this post over to our Files section?  Saving your info. in the Files will help other folks access.

Thanks again

Pat
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

RPM - Robert

Quote from: swiftnick on November 17, 2022, 11:41:24 AM
Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 10:35:38 AM
Mechanically, it doesn't but if you have them numeral side up the cam lobe will wear the number off.
Yeah, that's what I figured. I always mic shims when swapping them out and never rely on the number. I have sometimes surface ground shims to get a thickness I don't have on hand. When I do that, I always make sure the ground surface is down. I've not hardness checked them to know if they are through or just case hardened.

And on a positive note, I just finished up putting everything back together and she started right up. Cloud of smoke as usual but I expected that from the oil that had leaked past the old seals as well as the oil I coated the new seals with to ease assembly. Tomorrows start should be smoke free.

No worries, but not everyone owns a micrometer or even vernier calipers. This can make it a royal PITA for someone if the numbers are gone or if the shim has been ground for people without such tools. If you ever sell the bike or gift it to someone; without notes to know what goes where, it could be a hassle for someone.

swiftnick

Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 17, 2022, 01:17:50 PM
Well done Nick, thanks for the write up....after all the comments are posted, would you mind if I transferred this post over to our Files section?  Saving your info. in the Files will help other folks access.

Thanks again

Pat
Certainly Pat.

FJmonkey

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 01:41:01 PM
vernier calipers

FYI, they cannot be the the standard run of the mill calipers. The need to measure the center area where the lobes contact. Otherwise you are measuring the flats across the edges and they don't wear.

Low cost Harbor Freight digital micrometers are great for this task.
The glass is not half full, it was engineered with a 2X safety factor.

'86 Ambulance - Bent frame, cracked case, due for an overhaul
'89 Stormy Blue - Suits my Dark Side

swiftnick

Quote from: FJmonkey on November 17, 2022, 03:03:29 PM
Low cost Harbor Freight digital micrometers are great for this task.

They don't even need to be particularly accurate as you only need to measure the difference between the shim you take out and the one you plan to put in.

FJmonkey

Quote from: swiftnick on November 17, 2022, 04:03:19 PM
They don't even need to be particularly accurate as you only need to measure the difference between the shim you take out and the one you plan to put in.
Yes, measuring the current gap, then checking what the proper gap should be, gets you the new shim size. And they don't have to be exact. If you need to fudge the gap, (choose between a thicker/thinner shim) go for thinner (more gap). Works just fine for most of us weekend speedsters. I was too impatient once to wait for a new shim and just dealt with a tappy valve till the next oil change.

This is a nice reference, I have mine laminated. https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16002.0
The glass is not half full, it was engineered with a 2X safety factor.

'86 Ambulance - Bent frame, cracked case, due for an overhaul
'89 Stormy Blue - Suits my Dark Side

RPM - Robert

Not arguing that it is expensive or hard to do for "most" but the leopard and his missing finger comes to mind here. Some people don't have the ability or common sense to do certain things. Let alone the ability to read in 0.00197" which is the difference in standard shim sizes, if I recall off the top of my head, unless talking about the in between genuine Yamaha sizes and the gap is even smaller.

I would, however, argue some people shouldn't be working on their motorcycle, but I digress.

Bones

Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 07:04:03 PM
Not arguing that it is expensive or hard to do for "most" but the leopard and his missing finger comes to mind here. Some people don't have the ability or common sense to do certain things. 

The leopard, :biggrin: he was a classic, wonder whatever happened to him.
A tip I used when changing shims and you don't have the appropriate size at hand to put straight in is to put a coin in its place while turning the engine over to check the other sizes. Not sure what coin would be appropriate in the country you live but in Australia a $1.00 coin is the exact same size as a shim and being soft won't hurt the cam lobes while turning the engine over. I managed to swap a few around doing it that way and only needed to buy three new shims.
93 fj1200
79 suzuki gt250x7


Too young to be old but old enough to know better.

Motofun


[/quote]
This can make it a royal PITA for someone if the numbers are gone or if the shim has been ground for people without such tools. If you ever sell the bike or gift it to someone; without notes to know what goes where, it could be a hassle for someone.
[/quote]
The first time I do shims I just bite the bullet and pull them all (2 at a time) and take note of what is where.  From that point forward it is a simple painless task to replace the 1 or 2 shims that may need to be adjusted.
NOW, for a more modern engine with shim UNDER bucket design there is no such thing as painless....... :dash2:
'69 Honda Trail 90
'75 Honda CB400F
'85 Yamaha RZ350
'85 Yamaha FJ1100
'89 Yamaha FJ1200
'09 Yamaha 125 Zuma
'09 Kawasaki KZ110 (grand kids)
'13 Suzuki GSXR 750 (track)
'14 Yamaha FZ-09
'18 Suzuki GSXR 1000R (track)
'23 Yamaha Tenere 7
SOLD: CBX,RZ500,Ninja 650,CB400F,V45 Sabre,CB700SC,R1

swiftnick

I've done shims on 50 to 60 bikes now. The vast majority being not my own and I have no history of what's what. So, I check gap, pull the shim when adjustment is needed, mic it, go to my stash and pick one from the appropriate size up/down group, mic it (often check a few in the group as they have a tolerance that ranges about 0.0005") insert new shim. To be honest I never even look at the numbers written on them even if when they are still visible and not rubbed off.
My ST1300 has shim under bucket, yes what a PITA that is.

FJmonkey

Quote from: Bones on November 17, 2022, 10:35:35 PM
Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 17, 2022, 07:04:03 PM
Not arguing that it is expensive or hard to do for "most" but the leopard and his missing finger comes to mind here. Some people don't have the ability or common sense to do certain things. 

The leopard, :biggrin: he was a classic, wonder whatever happened to him.

If natural selection is in proper working order, he might have been reunited with his missing finger tip.
The glass is not half full, it was engineered with a 2X safety factor.

'86 Ambulance - Bent frame, cracked case, due for an overhaul
'89 Stormy Blue - Suits my Dark Side