Badly scored barrels

[Troyskie]

Hi All,
After a high speed trip of over 10,000km in three weeks, and using about 12 litres of oil all up, I decided to pop the head and barrels off to see what was wrong.

Before removal I did a quick compression check, dry, no oil in the chambers. The compression was absolutely fine, +160 on each. I didn't bother with the oiled check.

I pulled everything off expecting to find oil rings that had lost tension, but no.......

As I'm a relative novice, and this was my first top-end refresh (went to a 1219 Wiseco kit), I obviously assumed I'd screwed up.

The LH circlip on pistons 1, 2 & 3 had somehow allowed the gudgeon pin to work its way past the circlip and rub on the barrel.

The circlips were still in place.

I'm now looking for an engine base, or set of sleeves to re-bore to 1219.

The pistons look fine except for the huge amount of carbon build-up. There are some slight witness marks on the LH of each, but doesn't seem to be too bad so I'm going to re-use them.

Does anyone in Oz have a set of 1200 barrels I can buy?

Troyskie

[racerrad8]

Troy, we experienced the same thing way back in the early 2000's with our Legend mandated 1195 & 1202 kits. The groove was machined too big and the cir-clip embeds into the groove allowing the wrist pin to pass by. I was not aware this was an issue on the large bore kits as well.

To prevent this from occurring, we use Teflon wristpin buttons in place of the circlips. We made some custom buttons that would allow us to use the shorter & lighter Yamaha wristpin.

Wrist Pin Buttons

I'll have to have a look at the shop tomorrow to see what I have on the shelf for buttons.

As far as the damaged cylinder, you can drop in some new sleeves and then have it bored to the piston size if you cannot find a good, used donor. This also the time to measure the pistons as they have shrunk and the bore will need to be slightly smaller than when they were new.

Randy - RPM

[oldktmdude]

   Not sure if you would remember Randy but I had the same issue with my 1219 Wiseco kit. I had done around 80,000kms, with no problems
and then the wrist pin on number 4 piston went past the circlip and caused the same damage as Troy. Replaced the sleeve, rebore and a complete
set of new rings. I replaced the circlips with your teflon buttons and haven't had a problem since.
  Regards, Pete.

[Troyskie]

Thanks fellas.

I'm going to make some teflon buttons. I've ordered some 20mm teflon round bar and will have half a dozen sets made to match the 1219 Wiseco pistons.

Pete helped me out with a block and barrels that I can have bored to suit my pistons. The block has some significant fin damage at the top of 1 & 2. I'm a bit concerned that the amount of fin missing near the top of the block will create a hot spot, so I'll pop the sleeves from both blocks and swap them over.

I've not removed sleeves before. My plan is to heat the block assembly in the oven (after a good degrease and pressure clean) to around 200C/392F (whilst SWMO is up the road ), then return to heat and freeze the sleeves for reinstallation. Let me know if this is wrong.

Whilst the oil pan is off I plan to give the cases a good blast with my trusty kero gun as the oil became pretty sooty and without splitting the cases this will be my best chance to give the insides a good clean. As I type, I think I'll also pull the alternator, starter, clutch and sprocket covers to try and get into as many places as possible, even through the oil cooler and any galleys I can fit the nozzle into.

Fingers crossed this will only take a couple of weeks for parts, re-bore and machining before Yummy will be back on the road.

Troyskie

[Troyskie]

Ok, I've discovered my super power....I'm Super Impatient Man.

Without waiting for advice I popped the blocks in the oven at 200C for half an hour. The sleeves fell out.

Whilst I was at it, and as I had the replacement sleeves out at the same time, and everything was still hot as buggery, I swapped the replacements into the good block. All seems well.

This was too easy. What did I do wrong?
Yes I set the smoke alarm off in the house  . Although I'd degreased and pressure cleaned the blocks, there was engine oil up around the sleeves and it filled the kitchen when I opened the oven door.

My solution to the smell was to put a bit of garlic in the oven. Wife and daughter arrived home and said 'that smells nice. What are you cooking?'
I was thinking phew  .

[Old Rider]

Hello Troy i guess you remember that i did the oventrick when i replaced the sleeves im my engine.One thing that i remember when inserting the cooled in freezer new sleeves into
the preheated cylinderblock you have to work fast and make sure that you set some kind of pressure on top of the sleeves or else they will creap uppwards .I used a old kitchenbench plate and used long screws to fatsten the cylinderblock into the benckplate. https://fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18143.150. even after that the head surface had to be sendt to a workshop to be milled because the sleeves was a little higher that the cylhead surface ,but that was because the head had been milled berfore i think. Sorry to hear about the circlips .I used the standard pistons in my engine and had not notised any problems or abnormal oil usage so far after about 30000km .Soon i will use a borescope camera and take a look into the bores crossing fingers that there is no scoring,but as i said i used original pistons and circlips

[Troyskie]

Thanks Rolf. The scoring seems to be a production problem with the Wiseco 1219 pistons.

From what Randy and Pete have told me the rebate the circlips fit into was slightly oversize. This allowed the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) to work its way past the circlip and rub against the barrel.

As you have OEM pistons I doubt you'll have the same issue.

The replacement sleeves did not move once re-installed. I did 'chock' the re-sleeved block on timbers to ensure the sleeves fell all the way in (they literally dropped in). I then put the de-sleeved block on top to put a little pressure on the sleeves, but there was no movement at all.

If I were to do this again, I'll probably not do the freeze of the sleeve for two reasons. Firstly, from this experience there is no need. Both the barrels and sleeves were at the same temperature. It would appear that cast aluminium expands far more than cast iron at 200C. Secondly, as the frozen sleeve will have condensation forming on it almost instantly, the water will need to escape, putting pressure on the sleeve, and possibly causing it to lift as you've described (thanks for that bit Pete). Thus requiring the upper bracing to hold the sleeve in, again as you've described.

I do remember your project well, and had intended to freeze the sleeves, but as everything was loose at the same temperature it just seemed simpler to swap them at the same time.

Anyhoo, the block will still need to be bored. I've checked for warping and it seems fine, but I'll ask the machine shop to check and 'deck' as required.

I did do a web search for other Wiseco problems like this and have not found anything, so hopefully my other bikes with Wiseco kits will be fine (they're the 1100 oversize not 1200). It would seem it is limited to the 1219, and hopefully just a dodgy production run or period at the Wiseco factory that won't happen again. I did have a look through the Wiseco website and did not find any reference to ISO quality control standard. This doesn't necessarily mean anything as they reference a variety of CMM equipment and processes, but if they're exceeding the standards why not certify and promote that excellence?

Troyskie

[Pat Conlon]

From experience I can say that the Wiseco 82mm short skirt pistons have an oil ring tension that's too light.
You might even say the Wiseco's suck.......oil.

I am not a fan of Wiseco.

[RPM - Robert]

Pat, the 1219 Wiseco kits don't have the "super lite" skirts like the 1349 kits. I don't recall any oil problems with the 1219 like the the 1349 kits had. Mike's bike has the 1219 kit in it and it's probably over 100k since rebuild or maybe close to it and I don't think he has any oil consumption problems. Or at least non I have heard of.

[Pat Conlon]

Robert, yea, I hear ya....I never said the 1219 Wisecos had an oil ring problem... the disappearing circlips is bad enough.

Still not a fan of Wiseco

[Troyskie]

A small update, block off to have the barrels bored and top decked. Fingers crossed it comes back reasonably quickly.