Did I roast my clutch?

[RPM - Robert]

Agreed - I'm only just wondering why a 1600 lb race car can use (and presumably abuse) a stock FJ clutch, without it destroying itself. I'm genuinely interested, because that should mean you have to be an absolute idiot to trash a FJ clutch.

We are allowed to double spring or put Barnett in them. We run double springs in our cars just like in our bikes. All other performance enhancements are illegal. The cylinder head, pistons, transmission, cams, crank, ignition timing, etc. must remain stock.

We do absolutely thrash the transmissions. We shift close to 300 times in a 40 minute race. We have around 2.5 hours of track time a weekend between usually two races, practice and qualifying. Never have had any clutch issues, unless, someone just simply doesn't know how to get the car going and or leaves their foot on the clutch while shifting and revving it up.

We have more people exploding clutch baskets by missing shifts than we do clutch problems.

[RPM - Robert]

As for not finding the water leak in your car Robert, it's not unusual to have difficulty replicating faults on a vehicle in the workshop that might only show up when being driven or at certain speeds or when up to temp or when trying to decipher the mechanically challenged owners description of the problem or whatever.
The leak on my car could have easily been found with even the slightest attempt. The joint between the aluminum and plastic on the radiator was covered, as well as the plastic radiator end cap, in dried bright pink coolant.

Admittedly, dealership workshops don't produce very good mechanics and it's been my experience that the guys who work in them are a product of that environment. It's not really their fault, it's a lack of learning opportunity.
Agreed. Especially over here, there are no mechanic apprenticeships or anything of that nature. If there are they are far and few between.

Robert, you run an automotive repair business, it's a fact of life that there will have been dissatisfied customers over the years, that's the nature of that type of business and it's customers. Imagine if I were to express a similar opinion to yours about one of the forum experts over something similar??
While I do agree, you can not please everyone. I would hope it wouldn't be from a lack of simple effort, as pointed to above. Or downright dishonesty as in the case of the Ford dealership with the Mustang.


Dumping on mechanics has been a staple of this forum for as long as I've been here, everyone enjoys the retelling of the time they were smarter than the mechanic.
Not dumping on "all" mechanics. Hell I am not even dumping on inexperienced mechanics, if they ask questions and learn. I am, more so dumping on lazy mechanics, dealers, really anyone who tries to pass the buck at the first chance without doing any leg work.

I was also not saying I was smarter than the dealer, in the case of my car. I was simply pointing out, a basic visual inspection, performed by Ray Charles, likely would have been more helpful than this particular dealer. Be it by pure laziness, lack of experience, or simply not having working eyes. Yes, things get overlooked. Buutttttt.... when someone brings a vehicle in, that smells like leaking coolant, has low coolant, and if just the smallest bit of effort was put forth you could have visually seen the coolant leak. That to me is idiocy. If you coolant, be it wet or dry, coming out of the overflow on these new sealed car systems, it didn't just disappear. It is either going into the engine or leaking somewhere.

[aigram]

Thanks for the shared wisdom and experience.
I can say with absolute confidence that this particular FJ has seen an abuse-free life, and that the clutch is original. I have been running the Motul product that RPM sells for 4 seasons.
I'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season. This was the one and only time this year that I got close to WOT, and I've never experienced the behavior that I described any other time.

[giantkiller]

Going back to the oiil thing.   I've been running Rotella t6 in all of my bikes. Mostly because I have to put 31/2 gallons in my diesel. And I always have some around.  Plus it's always available if you're away from home. And need more. That includes the 1350 114 ftlbs 167hp. (After break-in). I do have Barnett springs and plate. And double diaphragm springs on my 89 beater bike. I think good spring pressure is important for the torque of the fj motor. Gotta love that rollon power...

[RPM - Robert]

Back to the regularly scheduled program. I would pop the clutch cover off and look at the steels and frictions. The slip will need to be addressed any ways. You can do a few things to address this.
If the steels/frictions are in order still.

1) Change the spring. This should get you years of service before having to replace again.
2) Add a second spring to the original spring. This will add clutch lever pull but you should never have another clutch slippage issue unless it is self inflicted by burning up the clutch.
3) Install a Barnett coil over conversion or something similar. We have new Barnett and some used ones out of the race cars.
4) You can do this for either of the above. remove the inner most narrow disc and anti chatter springs and install a wider disc back there. This will add a bit more friction surface area which will decrease the likelihood of slippage.

[Old Rider]

To me it sounds like your clutch is worn  it can wear in many ways and then it will slip under power.Measure the fiberplates thickness and metal plates and spring for warping or if they are blacked.
Took some picks from the manual how to inspect the clutch

[fj1289]

Agreed - I'm only just wondering why a 1600 lb race car can use (and presumably abuse) a stock FJ clutch, without it destroying itself. I'm genuinely interested, because that should mean you have to be an absolute idiot to trash a FJ clutch.

We are allowed to double spring or put Barnett in them. We run double springs in our cars just like in our bikes. All other performance enhancements are illegal. The cylinder head, pistons, transmission, cams, crank, ignition timing, etc. must remain stock.

We do absolutely thrash the transmissions. We shift close to 300 times in a 40 minute race. We have around 2.5 hours of track time a weekend between usually two races, practice and qualifying. Never have had any clutch issues, unless, someone just simply doesn't know how to get the car going and or leaves their foot on the clutch while shifting and revving it up.

We have more people exploding clutch baskets by missing shifts than we do clutch problems.

Robert - are the upshifts done full throttle using the rev-limiter as a shift kill?  I can't believe the level of abuse the transmission - hell the whole engine - takes in the cars.  Seeing first gear with all the teeth sheared off was the worst thing I've seen on any "motorcycle" transmission in any use!

[RPM - Robert]

If we are side by side with someone and actually trying to save thousands of a second. Yea, we never breath the throttle and blip the clutch to the rev limiter on upshift. If we have some space, we lift off the throttle and shift. The fast guys never use the clutch on downshift, they blip the throttle.

[Pat Conlon]

I think good spring pressure is important for the torque of the fj motor.

Yep, Dan nailed it.....

If you are using an oil that's safe for wet clutches, it doesn't matter if it's full or semi synthetic or mineral.

It's not the fiber plates, it's not the steels......it's the spring.

I have a big engine, lots of torque, on Red Line ester stock synthetic (wet clutch safe) and it works fine.
Reason?  I have a Barnett spring clutch plate with 82lb green springs.

On our FJ's....it's all about those weak ass diaphragm clutch springs....

BTW Where is Leon?
If he were here, he would remind us, "You will never find your kookaloo with a shitty clutch".

[ribbert]

I'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season.

A forensic inspection of the engine oil won't reveal anything of value nor help the diagnostic process in this case. Many things can be identified from used oil but clutch issues aren't one of them.

Noel

[red]

I'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season.

A forensic inspection of the engine oil won't reveal anything of value nor help the diagnostic process in this case. Many things can be identified from used oil but clutch issues aren't one of them.
Noel

Ribbert,

I agree.  Unless you find bits of clutch fibers in the drain oil, you won't learn much from the old oil. 
I'd say change the oil with the right motorcycle-specific oil, and see how that goes.

I would not go this far yet, but if you were to dis-assemble the clutch plates from the housing, there is a spec in the FSM for the plate thicknesses, and a total thickness spec for the entire pack.  I do not have a copy of the FSM, but somebody here will know these specs.

If the problem was mine, I go with the right oil (maybe twice), and maybe a second clutch spring added, to help the old one.

As the previous owner of a very strong clutch, I angled the clutch lever out enough that I could put my straight arm and hand onto the hand grip and clutch lever.  When the clutch hand got too tired, I would pull the clutch by hooking fingers around the lever, and leaning back with a straight arm/hand to pull the clutch.  I only did that to get home, after the clutch hand was done for the day.

[RPM - Robert]

I'm definitely just looking to see what I can look for as far as some forensics when I drain my oil at the end of the season.

A forensic inspection of the engine oil won't reveal anything of value nor help the diagnostic process in this case. Many things can be identified from used oil but clutch issues aren't one of them.
Noel

Ribbert,

I agree.  Unless you find bits of clutch fibers in the drain oil, you won't learn much from the old oil.  
I'd say change the oil with the right motorcycle-specific oil, and see how that goes.

I would not go this far yet, but if you were to dis-assemble the clutch plates from the housing, there is a spec in the FSM for the plate thicknesses, and a total thickness spec for the entire pack.  I do not have a copy of the FSM, but somebody here will know these specs.

If the problem was mine, I go with the right oil (maybe twice), and maybe a second clutch spring added, to help the old one.

As the previous owner of a very strong clutch, I angled the clutch lever out enough that I could put my straight arm and hand onto the hand grip and clutch lever.  When the clutch hand got too tired, I would pull the clutch by hooking fingers around the lever, and leaning back with a straight arm/hand to pull the clutch.  I only did that to get home, after the clutch hand was done for the day.

I'm still going with, not the oil. He said, "I have been running the Motul product that RPM sells for 4 seasons." So he has ran the oil for four years, if, I am reading that correctly. (could be using the actual amount of climate seasons in a year) Either way, one year of riding or four, all with the same oil. Abracadabra, all of a sudden it's the oil.  

If you are going to install a second clutch spring you are already 85% of the way to having the the clutch plates out.... there is literally no more bolts to remove at this point. Inspect your steels and fibers, they are simple to check as Rolf posted.

He might try to catch himself on fire so he has a working low fuel level light but he is thorough in what he does.

[Old Rider]

Robert wrote
He might try to catch himself on fire so he has a working low fuel level light but he is thorough in what he does.
[/quote]

If i catch on fire i think i can put the flames out with increased kookalaao speed ,but that has to tested  

When im out riding i always carry a flat surface plate and tools in my backpack so that if i notise a tiny sign of  clutchslip i stop and inspect the clutch

[ribbert]

As the previous owner of a very strong clutch, I angled the clutch lever out enough that I could put my straight arm and hand onto the hand grip and clutch lever.  When the clutch hand got too tired, I would pull the clutch by hooking fingers around the lever, and leaning back with a straight arm/hand to pull the clutch.  I only did that to get home, after the clutch hand was done for the day.

Haha, you made me laugh and brought back some wonderful memories with that Red. I grew up on big British bikes with cable operated coil spring clutches and poorly designed leverage, I can remember doing that very thing with the pull using the entire upper body. I can also remember sitting by the fire at night making my own fibre plates, cutting out cork inserts and sticking them on, and making keys for the tapered clutch hub (if a big single backfired when starting it would shear the key off)

These days, a big ride in the twisties might see somewhere around 7000 two finger gear changes in a day without a hint of fatigue. Because of the ease of doing so, I use the gearbox more than the rev range in those conditions.

Now, when technology has blessed us with bikes with wonderful light controls, people are going out of their way and spending money to make them heavy again. Plenty of members who have even fitted a second clutch spring or Barnett coil unit just for the hell of it, go figure!

Noel

[ribbert]

.....Agreed. Especially over here, there are no mechanic apprenticeships or anything of that nature.....

Wow Robert, you may not realise the significance of what you said. A difference in requirements for trade qualifications between the two countries had occurred to me many times over the years and would explain (but not excuse) a lot.

Noel