Did I roast my clutch?

[aigram]

Hey all, I'm looking for some advice on some behavior I experienced recently approaching WOT.
I largely stay away from WOT, but I figured it's towards the end of the season here in Wisconsin, so I decided to let 'er eat.
On the highway in high gear, I rolled onto the throttle as far as my wrist would allow for 4-5 seconds. At some point, I heard the RPMs jump up noticeably; It certainly seemed like engine RPM was exceeding wheel speed. I glanced down and saw something between 8-9krpm.
Did I roast my clutch? Or did I have an odd transition to secondaries? Dumb related question: CV carbs do have secondaries...right? As in a secondary circuit? Something has to accommodate higher fuel demand. I don't want to get to far off in the weeds on this last part.

How can I tell if my clutch is still healthy? I am 100% certain that it is original.

[Millietant]

What you've described definitely sounds like a slipping clutch to me. It doesn't sound like anything else !

3 questions -

1) how many miles have you done on the engine/clutch

2) What oil type are you using - mineral, semi-synthetic, or synthetic?

3) How do you normally ride? - drag racing from traffic lights?. "Driving Miss Daisy" ?, or somewhere in the middle?

[aigram]

1. The bike and clutch have 32k miles
2. I use Motul synthetic 20w50, from RPM
3. I rarely if ever hammer on it. If I find myself on some empty backroads, I'll kindly roll on the throttle.

[Millietant]

I hate to say "it's as I expected"....BUT.............When I switched to using synthetic oil in my first FJ 1200 I got exactly the symptoms you described.

The clutch slip initially happened on WFO runs at the top end of the rev's, but it gradually started lower down in the rev range the longer I left it and the more WFO runs I did. My Yamaha dealer shook his head at me and chewed me out for using synthetic oil in a FJ.

A full set of new clutch plates and a return to mineral oil solved the issue permanently for me.

I know here in the UK the FJOC have until very recently only ever recommended Mineral oil in a FJ for the exact same reason (clutch slip) and have only recently started to offer specific semi-synthetic oil, alongside the traditional mineral oil.

[aigram]

Interesting, I'm curious if anyone else can speak to this behavior. I trust that RPM provides good products that work well with this bike.

[aigram]

Actually, hang on. The Motul oil I described is an Ester based lubricant. This is some of the toughest lubricant on the planet. Not saying that you didn't experience a change in behavior after switching oil, but I would venture to guess that the brand new clutch pack played the most significant role. I am not an engineer, but technology marches on, and so it is with better lubricants.

Since I'm not going to try WOT again this season and see if I experience the same behavior, I'm more interested in the best way that I can examine my oil for abnormal clutch wear once I drain it out for the season.

[RPM - Robert]

In Airgrams case it is not the oil. We sell a lot of the Motul 7100. This oil is API SN/SM/SL JASO MA2 wet clutch motorcycle specific oil. Not only to motorcycle riders but also race car guys running these engines in a 1600lb race car. My father in law runs it in his Hayabusa and none of them experience clutch issues. I even know of one particular customer, don't ask me why he does this, that alternates between the Motul 7100 and conventional oil every oil change.

If you are not the original owner of the bike I would venture to say it is going to be more the bike being ridden hard.

[Millietant]

Actually, hang on. The Motul oil I described is an Ester based lubricant. This is some of the toughest lubricant on the planet. Not saying that you didn't experience a change in behavior after switching oil, but I would venture to guess that the brand new clutch pack played the most significant role. I am not an engineer, but technology marches on, and so it is with better lubricants.

Since I'm not going to try WOT again this season and see if I experience the same behavior, I'm more interested in the best way that I can examine my oil for abnormal clutch wear once I drain it out for the season.

I think you're missing my point - the FJ in question only had 6,000 miles on it when the clutch started to slip, shortly after putting in a synthetic oil for the first time. Simply draining the synthetic oil and replacing it with mineral oil didn't solve the problem and it was with a heavy heart and an empty wallet that I had to replace the clutch plates on a 7 month old bike.

My Yamaha dealer refused to replace the plates under warranty because I had gone against the makers specific instructions regarding the use of fully synthetic oil.

With the new clutch pack and mineral oil, I covered another 18,000 miles of hard riding on that bike with no further clutch problems, before selling it and I'm now at 85,000 miles on my current (owned from new) FJ 1200 which has always been run on mineral oil, without any clutch issues at all, despite many racetrack/trackday miles as well as lots of fully loaded touring.

I'm not disputing the quality of the oil you've used, I'm just saying that "being the toughest oil on the planet", this oil is almost "too good" for an FJ, in that what makes a synthetic oil so good for its intended piurpose, makes it bad for wet clutches, like the FJ has.

To provide long life between oil changes, modern synthetic oils have excellent lubrication properties, way in excess of what was available when the FJ's were made and these oils CAN and sometimes DO, because of their brilliant lubrication properties, wreak havoc with old technology wet clutches, such as the FJ has. Like I said, I'm not dismissing the oil you've used because it's not good quality, I'm more saying it's possibly too good quality.

I might hazard a guess that RPM sell the fully synthetic oil because the Legend race cars might use dry clutches, but I'll leave it to others to advise on that.

Suffice it to say that I've given you my own experiences and I know of many other FJ riders who have suffered exactly the same issues as you have described when switching to more modern "better quality" synthetic oil, in the hope that I might help you avoid similar issues in the future.  

[Millietant]

It is not the oil. We sell a lot of the Motul 7100 oil not only to motorcycle riders but also race car guys running these engines in a 1600lb race car. My father in law runs it in his Hayabusa and none of them experience clutch issues. I even know of one particular customer, don't ask me why he does this, that alternates between the Motul 7100 and conventional oil every oil change.

If you are not the original owner of the bike I would venture to say it is going to be more the bike being ridden hard.

That's good to hear Robert and hopefully the FJ can be run on synthetic for the future without issue - but I can't ignore my own experience and the response of the Yamaha importer when I made my warranty claim.

Regarding the Hayabusa, I too have run fully synthetic oils in my Aprilia RSV, my FZ1 and my FZS 600, all for many years, and these bikes all have wet clutches too, but the manufacturer's all recommend the use of fully synthetic oils for these bikes. I'm assuming that the clutches were designed with materials and specs to suit the synthetic oils that were around at the time of the bikes designs.

Do the race cars run the original wet clutches with the FJ engines - I would have thought they'd be using dry clutches ?

[RPM - Robert]

It is not the oil. We sell a lot of the Motul 7100 oil not only to motorcycle riders but also race car guys running these engines in a 1600lb race car. My father in law runs it in his Hayabusa and none of them experience clutch issues. I even know of one particular customer, don't ask me why he does this, that alternates between the Motul 7100 and conventional oil every oil change.

If you are not the original owner of the bike I would venture to say it is going to be more the bike being ridden hard.

That's good to hear Robert and hopefully the FJ can be run on synthetic for the future without issue - but I can't ignore my own experience and the response of the Yamaha importer when I made my warranty claim.

Regarding the Hayabusa, I too have run fully synthetic oils in my Aprilia RSV, my FZ1 and my FZS 600, all for many years, and these bikes all have wet clutches too, but the manufacturer's all recommend the use of fully synthetic oils for these bikes. I'm assuming that the clutches were designed with materials and specs to suit the synthetic oils that were around at the time of the bikes designs.

Sorry to say, most dealers are idiots. Motorcycle, automobile, or truck. They are always looking to get out of paying for something. Easy to say "well, looks like you used the wrong oil, we won't cover it." Could have been the original plates on that clutch plate run weren't thick enough, steels not thick enough. Who knows? Did they bother to measure them? Sounds like they didn't, they simply heard you ran synthetic and had a "lightbulb moment". Aha, we don't have to cover this since it doesn't specifically say "synthetic oil". Could it have been the oil that you used, sure. It also could have been any other number of things that, likely were not investigated once you told them you ran synthetic.

Two stories from within the last year. My brother has a 2016 Mustang GT, there are several thousands complaints that the chinsy tabs holding the front and rear bumpers simply break off. My brothers entire rear bumper flew off driving down the freeway. The dealer told him they wouldn't cover it because "The only reason it came off was; he was driving to fast." After opening up his phone and showing them the thousands of complaints and telling them, "He wasn't born yesterday." They went ahead and warrantied it. I have a 2018 Dodge Durango, at the time it had about 15,000 miles on it. I could smell a coolant leak, so I popped the radiator shroud off and found the radiator core where the plastic was crimped over was leaking. I put it back together and my wife took it to the dealer for a warranty claim. They had the car for the entire day and told her it wasn't leaking. So I went down there on my next Saturday off and asked for the service manager. He proceeded to tell me, "I had my best man on this." I laughed and I opened the hood in front of him took off the radiator fan shroud and showed him exactly where it was leaking. He apologized profusely and offered me free oil changes services for a year. I told him, "If your "best" man can't find a leak in a radiator, when my wife specifically told him the coolant was low and she could smell coolant. I wouldn't trust them to change my oil any more than the local high school auto shop."

As far as your FZ1, or Hayabusa, or whatever XYZ, etc, etc. Take the clutch out and compare it to the FJ clutch on your FZ1, which "recommends" synthetic. Most of them are going to be a cork like material just like the FJ. Makes no difference if it is in a 1986 FJ1200 or a 2021 Hayabusa it's the same material and as such you can use a "motorcycle specific" synthetic in. (I know the busa is the same as the for sure because I serviced my fathers in laws busa, and we are running busas in the roadsters now as well) Heck even the new FZ09/FJ09 motor being used in the Legends car is the same material as well.

The race cars are stock motors. It is a spec series, no changes are allowed to be made to the internals, including the clutch. Buy a new motor, bolt it in, and race. Keeps the cost of having to build expensive motors down. Last time I talked to a friend of mine that races 410 sprint cars, they are spending about 30,000 USD to build a sprint car motor. The top WoO teams are leasing motors, they are getting so expensive.

[Motofun]

^^^^ he knows that of which he speaks^^^^^

Either the clutch was abused in an earlier life or perhaps there is some performance enhancements?  It is possible to overwhelm a stock FJ clutch.  The cheap fix for this is to double up the diaphragm spring.  Don't worry, if you do this you'll develop a manly left hand grip!   

Another thought, the previous owner used car spec oil that contaminated the friction discs?

[Millietant]

Agreed - I'm only just wondering why a 1600 lb race car can use (and presumably abuse) a stock FJ clutch, without it destroying itself. I'm genuinely interested, because that should mean you have to be an absolute idiot to trash a FJ clutch.

I've never been "gentle" with my FJ, but I don't believe I've ever "abused" it either (I've never done drag race style starts) and tried never to exceed the red line, but I have "used the performance available" many times on track, over 35 years on FJ's and a never had an issue except when I used fully synthetic oil in my relatively new 1TX. Chance, or bad luck/bad clutch it may be, but it's my experience.

Robert's experience is a new dimension to me. Regarding the dealer, yes I realised they are a bunch of cowboys, which is why I haven't used one since 1992, for that very reason, except for the forest services on my subsequent new bikes.

[ribbert]

Sorry to say, most dealers are idiots. Motorcycle, automobile, or truck. They are always looking to get out of paying for something......I wouldn't trust them to change my oil.

Dealers don't pay for anything on warranty claims, they are paid an hourly rate by the manufacturer, usually a lower rate than the customer pays but charge out predetermined "standard" times which are longer and the manufacturer covers the cost of parts, it's good work for them.

When a fault in a vehicle becomes widespread, the cause is officially determined by the manufacturer and the dealer just tows the company line, car makers do however have a long history of starting out by trying to blame the operator, such as with your brother's car.

As for not finding the water leak in your car Robert, it's not unusual to have difficulty replicating faults on a vehicle in the workshop that might only show up when being driven or at certain speeds or when up to temp or when trying to decipher the mechanically challenged owners description of the problem or whatever.

Admittedly, dealership workshops don't produce very good mechanics and it's been my experience that the guys who work in them are a product of that environment. It's not really their fault, it's a lack of learning opportunity.

Robert, you run an automotive repair business, it's a fact of life that there will have been dissatisfied customers over the years, that's the nature of that type of business and it's customers. Imagine if I were to express a similar opinion to yours about one of the forum experts over something similar??

Dumping on mechanics has been a staple of this forum for as long as I've been here, everyone enjoys the retelling of the time they were smarter than the mechanic.




Mercedes Benz-Toyota Dealership Service Manager (20 mechanic workshop)

Honda (motorcycle) dealership manager

Holden (Chev) - Honda motorcycle dealership apprentice/mechanic

Frustatingly, life long dealership customer (new vehicles)

[ribbert]

My restraint in not joining this discussion is holding up as well as my clutch.


Noel

[ribbert]

That's good to hear Robert and hopefully the FJ can be run on synthetic for the future without issue.

Dean, I'd be keen for you to try this on your next oil change and report back.

Noel