Back-up power

[red]

Troyskie,

I know the conversation here has wandered a bit, but I really had a point in there somewhere . . .  Back-up power is great to have, no doubt, but it may be useful to consider what that power really needs to do.  Cooling the freezer may be important for frozen foods, but what if all the food was safe, out on the pantry shelves, instead?  My earthwork berms help to keep my place warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer, no charge.  They are even decorative (my neighbors would not be happy if I covered my little place with solar cells, or had generators running constantly).  Some people have rigged a car generator and battery to a stationary bicycle, and the kids can have all the entertainment they wish, but they need to pedal to get it.  I hear it keeps them a bit more connected in reality, that way.   
     
Anyway, in years past, I have been thinking that my own power needs are not that much, and I'm always looking for new ways to cut the cords and maintain a good life.  It's not a radical, driven attitude, but I do welcome the things that I can enjoy without a power cord.  We have old coal-fired power plants here, and nobody should consider them to be "reliable."  I can see a natural gas fuel cell happening here one day, but probably not a big one, and I may have a tank for it outside, in case the gas company fails, too.

My US$.02 worth.       
.

[Troyskie]

Thanks Red, I agree with your sentiment.

As a reformed city slicker cooling out in the country it is my absolute intention to minimise my power use.

When I built my house I went all out for passive heating/cooling. I angled the house to get winter sun in the windows and to keep the sun at less than 10 degree angle in summer. We are really well insulated compared to most around me, but not to the level of those in the snow.
On average if it is 100 outside, inside will be low 80s.

My shed is insulated too, but not as well, however I'm quite comfortable in my shed, even on the hottest days. The hottest I've ever had here was 49C, which is not crazy, but you don't want to be digging a trench that day. That day the shed temp inside never passed 40C. Man a cold beer that day went down well.

We do have aircon, a ducted split system, very efficient for what it is, similar to what Pat describes. We don't use it much, probably for about 1/3 of the year, and interestingly mostly for heating when early morning temps are at their lowest. Even when we do, with the insulation we shut it down once it takes the edge off.

I'm interested in back-up power for those times I really need it. Perhaps a little like those survivalist people you see on TV with bunkers, but I'm not at that level yet. My family however, well, they need their mod cons. When I'm home alone (very rare with young kids) my power usage is insignificant.
I'm not bothered by solar panels. When done well they look ok. Not as nice as my beautiful Colorbond roof of course.

When we get our power bill it is general pretty modest for the size house it is.

Travis, mate I love cooling towers, but it would never fly here for a couple of reasons. Mainly water is bloody expensive, and the inspection/certification of a cooling tower in Oz is pretty full-on. Finally, they are poo-pood by the sustainability crowd & the local council is beset by vocal lobbyists meaning certification is certain to be tough.

On another path, I also think of back-up power for work. I've a lot of equipment (welders, CNC stuff, etc.) that can't go without power and that is a background thought. I thought I'd prove my method at home and roll-out a bigger version at work.

I really love the idea of the power cells.

Troy

[Sparky84]

Storage is essential, pointless just feeding the grid while the sun shines and nothing for you to use at night.

Until there is cheaper storage costs, solar for me is pointless unless I start working night shifts and spend more time at home in daylight hours

[Pat Conlon]

Storage is essential, pointless just feeding the grid while the sun shines and nothing for you to use at night.

Here in Calif we have "Net Metering" where the kWh you put into the grid during daylight hours from your PV or wind system gets credited against the kWh you take from the grid at night.

[FJ Flyer]

Right now, the weather say 94 degrees and a "real feel" temp of 99 due to the 32% humidity level.

Randy - RPM

In the DC area, we typically have summer days in the mid to high 90s with humidity at 60+%.  The house gets closed up in June and windows don't open until late September.  You walk outside and drip.

We went to a pellet stove last year to supplement our heat pump.  Heat pumps suck.  Pellet stove works great.  Just got 2 tons of pellets delivered, which should take us through most of the winter.

Note on power.  The FAA TRACONs and Air Traffic Control Centers have a massive bank of batteries to provide uninterrupted power until the numerous huge generators kick on.  Usually works pretty well.

[giantkiller]

We have net metering here in Wisconsin too. All of the utilities are trying to get rid of it. WE energies tried to get rid of it.  Luckily we have Renew Wisconsin. They fought them in court. And actually won for now...
So then they just tried to put a sir charge on the kw's that you produce. Thanks for again Renew Wisconsin. That didn't pass

[Pat Conlon]

We have net metering here in Wisconsin too. All of the utilities are trying to get rid of it.

Yep, same here in Calif.  We are under a constant stream of challenges from utilities.
It's like playing Wack a Mole, they pop back up every year.

The thought of wide spread adoption of roof top solar frightens utilities. It turns their business model upside down. For an investor owned utility, who in their right mind is going to buy stock in a company that is losing customers?
So the old concept of charging customers based on the amount of kWh use is gone.
Now it's about the amount and time of use.
[rant on] Remember in old days the utilities worried about "on peak" hours of electrical use which was 11am to 6pm?
Oh wait, now the "on peak" times are 2pm to 8pm. This was done to negate any credits from PV solar production.
Utilities realize that very little PV production occurs after 3pm or 4pm at the latest. They structured their time of use rates to get the maximum money out of the customer at the time when the roof top PV system is not producing, or producing very little. [rant off]

In fairness to utilities, folks who stay connected to the electrical grid with grid tied PV systems should not get a free ride. With Net Metering, even if their PV solar output evens out with their night time use, the customers should still pay the utility a small charge to maintain the grid.

The devil's in the details.

[giantkiller]

I have a monthly maintenance charge. And a monthly charge to pay for the low income people. But they say that they don't make any money off me to add to the. Monthly maintenance charges. Because they don't sell enough to me. Well I have to over produce. To break even. Because  I get paid less for what I produce than what they charge me when I have buy from them. And they're making a profit selling the electricity I overproduce to my neighbors.

Oh yeah maintenance on the lines that are already there weather I had built my house or not.

[Pat Conlon]

How about this....there are spots in the nation where the property owner is required to pay to the electric utility an annual assessment on their property taxes, even if they are totally off grid.

If you have utility lines by your property, you pay the assessment, even though you are not connected.

I'm telling you, it's Wack a Mole.....

[Tuned forks]

I have a friend in Danville that has rooftop solar but must pay over $500/year for a "connectivity fee".

Yes Pat, I would imagine that the utility companies are concerned about their old business model and are looking for other ways to charge us.  I would also imagine they will get the states to mandate utility connection for new home construction.

That's why we call them Pigs Greed & Extortion up here (PG&E).

Joe

[Troyskie]

Just to stir the pot a little. When it comes to natural gas supply, I'm told we in Australia pay some of the highest rates in the world, and we are soon to become the worlds biggest gas exporter  .

Another 'utility' I pay for, but don't use, is sewer. All my sewer is processed and kept on-site. In 13 years I've never had a pump-out. Once processed the 'clear' water is sprayed on designated parts of the garden (damn handy during this drought).
But, just like Pat's connectivity fee, I have to pay an annual sewer 'contribution' to the local council. The nearest sewer line is a couple of miles away (yep miles, not kilometres).

At least if I go totally off grid for electricity at home I won't pay a brass razoo (although they'll find a way I'm sure).

[Motofun]

Just something to consider.....Since electricity has no shelf life it is a pure on-demand commodity.  Flip the switch and you expect (even demand) that it be available.  That requires the utility to do a monumental job of juggling to meet expectations.  On a rainy day demand soars and on a sunny day it collapses.  Guess which day they have to design for?  More so, what do you do on a sunny day with your excess capacity.  Since there is no viable way to store the excess you have to shut it down.  True, the grid helps by allowing shunting of power between areas but that is only a partial solution.
If Pat wants to be paid what the utility charges all he needs to do is create a utility with an obligation to serve to find out why there is such a disparity in rates.   
OOPS, sorry Pat...it wasn't your comment....
Just thought of a swell alternative.  Get rid of the Utilitity's obligation to serve!  Just like Walmart isn't required to sell guns and ammo.  If the Utility runs out of capacity they just say "sorry we're sold out today...maybe tomorrow?"

[giantkiller]

That. Obligation to serve is there wether or not. I'm producing free electricity. For them to sell and make a profit from. So why do they keep lying and saying that I'm costing everyone else. I guarantee I'M making more for the utilities than any of my neighbors. At no additional cost to the utilities. Other than the initial hook up. Wich I paid a charge for the hook up. And like I said I also pay a monthly maintenance charge. And a monthly charge for low income people ...ect

[Pat Conlon]

Utilities try hard to provide power when needed, but what started this discussion was the need for back up power when the utility fails to serve. As our local utility defers maintenance, more and more power outages occur and folks are getting tired of them.

So Jack,  an obligation to serve mandates an obligation to pay?
Even if the property owner is off grid, they still have an obligation to pay? Nope, not buying it.

I accept the need for a service charge for grid tied PV systems. That's fair, they should not get a free ride. Those folks should pay their fair share for keeping the grid maintained, after all they use it at night and on rainy days.

[Motofun]

I agree, if you are totally off the grid, with no wires, you should not be liable as long as you can be denied service should you change your mind.  The current fee structures are more a political debacle than anything else.  Since public utilities are regulated they play the political game.  Competition is the best solution to this.  In PA we have that with the exception that transmission and distribution are still regulated so there is a fee for that. Not sure how the fees work for those that pump power back into the system.  When the utilities don't get what they think they need from the PUC what options do they have but to cut costs.  Tree trimming is wildly expensive and suburban folks really hate it.  They're the first ones to complain when the power goes out though.  Underground is a good choice for new developments but can you imagine the infrastructure costs to existing distribution?