1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher

[THXFJ1200]

Been reading a lot, and seams a way to go I check for clutch hydraulics and pushrod or lever issues.
I had the feeling before on load the bike to rev up repeatedly, But I think I was in 2nd gear how would I distinguish a second gear shifting issue from a clutch slipping in second gear?? I guess you get into third gear and throttle up again WOT.
Been serious I don't think I have the b@ll...sa to WOT this beast... That's my bad. This time it happened with more load than usual. But the next time I rode it the shifting was hard very hard.
Almost impossible to find neutral in the lights. I know some people never get back into neutral but I tell you the clutch grabbing I think it could pull me in gear any time... It was weird.
So I bought the detent kit from RPM and I am willing to go the extra mile if the clutch needs "preventive work as well.

Is it possible that the clutch slips in one circumstance and drags in others? Would that lead to some clear diagnosis?
WHat would be my first move? Change the oil? I do remember as the oil got warmer I think the shifting improved, but then the cops stopped me having no insurance... me bad I just got cut into the try out here my motorcycle is in trouble, lol... big ticket, the dude was not receptive...

So thats it I have a shifting issue and the rpm detent shifting kit a hand what should I do next?










??

[krusty]

Been reading a lot, and seams a way to go I check for clutch hydraulics and pushrod or lever issues.
I had the feeling before on load the bike to rev up repeatedly, But I think I was in 2nd gear how would I distinguish a second gear shifting issue from a clutch slipping in second gear?? I guess you get into third gear and throttle up again WOT.
Been serious I don't think I have the b@ll...sa to WOT this beast... That's my bad. This time it happened with more load than usual. But the next time I rode it the shifting was hard very hard.
Almost impossible to find neutral in the lights. I know some people never get back into neutral but I tell you the clutch grabbing I think it could pull me in gear any time... It was weird.
So I bought the detent kit from RPM and I am willing to go the extra mile if the clutch needs "preventive work as well.

Is it possible that the clutch slips in one circumstance and drags in others? Would that lead to some clear diagnosis?
WHat would be my first move? Change the oil? I do remember as the oil got warmer I think the shifting improved, but then the cops stopped me having no insurance... me bad I just got cut into the try out here my motorcycle is in trouble, lol... big ticket, the dude was not receptive...

So thats it I have a shifting issue and the rpm detent shifting kit a hand what should I do next?










??

From what you are describing I would be having a real close look at the hydraulic system. When was the system last serviced? Have you checked the fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir? Have you had to top it up lately. Check around the slave cylinder for signs of fluid leakage, same for the master cylinder.

[ryanschoebel]

+1 to Krusty.   I had similar issues to what you are describing on my 85, and it turned out to be a leaking slave. Rebuild kit from RPM, and good as new. Bleeding was a bitch though. I don't envy you that!

[red]

+1 to Krusty.   I had similar issues to what you are describing on my 85, and it turned out to be a leaking slave. Rebuild kit from RPM, and good as new. Bleeding was a bitch though. I don't envy you that!

THXFJ1200,

I would agree.  As for bleeding the clutch, you might want to try:

http://www.speedbleeder.com/

If they have the item needed for your 1200, it makes bleeding (anything) very much easier.  Get the optional tube and catch bag, too; it helps a lot.

[THXFJ1200]

Thanks for the replies guys, I have not taken a look yet to the hydraulics, I will as soon as I get time, I did order yesterday a new clutch spring and the rpm pack with 7 wide discs... just to refresh the clutch internals a little bit.
I will check the slave cylinder and rebuild if necessary. I have no idea when was the last time it got any attention, the PO didn't give me that info.

Hey Red, I do have some sort of pressure bleeder DIY equipment that could be useful. Do you have any idea what thread/size of these bleeders would be needed in order to bleed the clutch slave or master cylinder?

I think I  will need to start reading the Clymer's manual now. organizing ideas and taking in where everything is etc.

Thanks for the advice, I will get back to you once I take a look.

[FJ_Hooligan]

I think you have 2 problems.

First, a hydraulic issue either in the slave or master cylinder that is not allowing the clutch to disengage all the way.  That's causing the dragging, hard to shift and hard to find neutral.

The revving up repeatedly under load in 2nd gear is the "2nd gear issue."  That being worn engagement dogs and/or bent shift fork.

[THXFJ1200]

  session ended just when my post was complete and I was trying to review it. Damn, lost the whole thing.

I agree with Red, two problems:

1- Clutch Hydraulic issues: (see attached pictures, where there is obvious leak and the oil filter cover has lost its paint ))
First, order RPM slave rebuild kit and bleed the clutch, any advice or tutorials handy? it sounds like no fun. I will try one of them sped-bleeders if I can find out the size and thread of the bleeder in the slave cylinder.

2- Infamous "second gear issue" or clutch slipping in second gear... not sure... for this I decided:
  First: Install RPM shifter detent kit and since the clutch needs to get out I will change the clutch pack for the RPM pack (removing thin disk and chatter clip and substituting it for the full-size 7th disk.)
  Second: Change oil and filter. Any suggestions here? My bike is under 70xxxkm. parts on their way here!

After this I will try to go and make second gear jump off by throttle it under load, I hope its all good, the PO did mention that the PO before him told him that "the second gear issue has been taken care off". Also, I have heard these bikes shifter forks are harder to bend. But maybe the gears are just having the problem and the fork is holding... Anyways one thing at the time!

The guy in the FJ info page says that 20-50 w mineral oil, SG rated is a good choice, for me maybe thinner since my temperatures are not hot. I am very much open to suggestions!
He also mentions "RPM Spin on oil filter conversion" as something good to have in order to change the filter easily?

So, for now, I will get the slave cylinder kit and the oil filter conversion kit, with the oil filter I guess...
By Robert in RPM suggestion maybe the clutch washers... is there anything else I would need to buy to make these changes happen?

Thanks a lot for all the replies and I really hope to see some of you in the next WCR.
2 wheels down, summertime! 

[RPM - Robert]

After this I will try to go and make second gear jump off by throttle it under load, I hope its all good, the PO did mention that the PO before him told him that "the second gear issue has been taken care off". Also, I have heard these bikes shifter forks are harder to bend. But maybe the gears are just having the problem and the fork is holding... Anyways one thing at the time!

So, for now, I will get the slave cylinder kit and the oil filter conversion kit, with the oil filter I guess...
By Robert in RPM suggestion maybe the clutch washers... is there anything else I would need to buy to make these changes happen?

By Robert in RPM suggestion maybe the clutch washers... Clutch Hub Lock Washer

As for the second gear issue. The 92 did come with stronger shift forks, however, if one of the PO missed shifts and abused the transmission. Which sounds to be the case if "the second gear issue has been taken care of" The shift fork will begin to bend ever so slightly with abuse. This in turn will begin to round the engagement point in the gear and the cog off, which in turn will cause it to pop out of gear more, which in turn bends the shift forks more. Do you see where i'm going with this? The problem only gets worse and worse until repaired. You can baby foot around it if there is an issue but you need to take it easy in second gear and make sure you have positive shift engagement (shift it hard with your foot, you do more damage trying to soft foot shift it and not engaging the gears all the way)

The forks are not harder they are actually a bit longer than the early model shift forks.

[red]

Thanks for the replies guys,
Hey Red, Do you have any idea what thread/size of these bleeders would be needed in order to bleed the clutch slave or master cylinder?
I think I  will need to start reading the Clymer's manual now. organizing ideas and taking in where everything is etc.
Thanks for the advice, I will get back to you once I take a look.

THXFJ1200,

Speedbleeders.com knew what would fit everything on my other bikes, so give them a call or email.  They are very friendly and helpful.

There are lots of tech write-ups here that can help with FJ maintenance.  If a Search does not find what you need, ask here and somebody will probably jump in with the right link for you.

HTH.
.

[THXFJ1200]

Thanks Robert, I hear you, I will make the choice for the positive shifting, I read that after the detent kit is in place this happens more naturally... still will put some load in second just to make an assessment on how it behaves with the new clutch unit and mods, I am a light rider so I will need to double someone and try to replicate what happened that last time.
If it does not jump off, and let's say there is no "second gear issue", then what? Should I still do some work in there as preventive maintenance for it not to happen in the future, or just been observant and cautious of engaging positively second gear every time should suffice? On the other hand, split the case and undercut the dogs or something like that I have read in the threads? It sounds like a big job!

Red: I already sent an email to speed bleeders, but still would like to hear from you guys here, how many bleeders would I need for the clutch job? I can see one in the slave cylinder, any other I should be aware of?
I would also buy some of them for my front brakes in order to use them in the future if I have to do some front brake improvements,

I am going down there now to take a closer look and maybe remove the slave cylinder.

Thank you all.

[red]

Red: I already sent an email to speed bleeders, but still would like to hear from you guys here, how many bleeders would I need for the clutch job? I can see one in the slave cylinder, any other I should be aware of?
I would also buy some of them for my front brakes in order to use them in the future if I have to do some front brake improvements,
I am going down there now to take a closer look and maybe remove the slave cylinder.
Thank you all.

THXFJ1200,

You should have one for the slave cylinder, and a Speedbleeder to replace each one on the calipers. 

In addition, now they make replacement banjo bolts with bleed fittings in the head, so now you can bleed each master cylinder at the TOP of the hydraulic line.  What an idea!  I do not know what Speedbleeder those banjo bolts would need, but if they do not know, I would send one to Speedbleeders and let them find out.  You may not need Speedbleeders there, just do a normal bleed with the new banjo bolt.  They cost maybe US$15.00 and up ('way up!) so check prices before you buy.

Another bleeding trick is to tie the lever back with a bungee cord, and let it sit that way overnight.  Why I can't say, but it helps to get the air out.
.

[Tuned forks]

Another bleeding trick is to tie the lever back with a bungee cord, and let it sit that way overnight.  Why I can't say, but it helps to get the air out.

Robert passed along that trick to me.  I can attest that it really works!

Joe

[THXFJ1200]

OK, I tried to open the clutch reservoir in order to remove as much dot 4 as possible from the top and, as you can see in the picture attached, the second bolt to open the reservoir was really stuck in there and the head stripped

So that's pretty much it, I couldn't do much more... what do you guys suggest to do with this bolt? drill the head off and deal with the rest once the cover is off?

One more silly question, for bleeding the system cant I just leave the top reservoir cover open and start adding fluid from the bottom bleeder and flickering the hose until the reservoir fills up and loses the air in a natural way? bubbles go up etc... then just screw the cover in and that's it? Leave the lever tight with the bunjy during all this process and lose it the next night.

Otherwise, I would rather fit the banjo bolts with bleeders, sounds more natural to bleed through the top, I found in another post that the banjo bolts for our master cylinders are M10 x 1.25 pitch and about 18mm long from the shoulders of the bolt downwards.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7916.0

Even furthermore, cant I just drill the banjo that is there now and thread it to take a bleeder? speed or regular one?... I do have a bench drill and am not foreign to create thread... any takers? lol.

OK I will think about what to do about my cover bolt, in the meanwhile, I will start reading the Clymer manual.

Thanks for the good advice guys.

[Old Rider]

To get the screw out you have several options.First you can try to very gently turn  the reservoir lid back and fort but be careful there is a ridge on the underside .
you can drill out the head on the screw or take a dremeltool with a mini cuttingdisk making a cut so you can use a flat screwdriver or a chisel .Or you can drill a little hole in the middle of the screw and use
a screw extractor tool like the one in the picture .working on the FJ it is really handy with a screw extractor set dont ask me how i know 

For getting air out as mentioned earlier pull in the lever and tie it to the handle over night and at the same time do it with your brake lever also .The reservoir cap dos not need to be taken off.
i have sometime a spongy brakehandle and even if tryed to bleed the the brake/clutch i have not always got  100% good result.Then tying the lever into handle over night all the supersmall airbubbles get out and  the handle gets rock hard and stays that way for many weeks before need to tie the lever overnight again.It is best to place the bike on centerstand when doing it on the clutch side

[THXFJ1200]

Thanks, Old Rider for the advice, I went down before reading your post thou and drilled the head off the screw, I will source out a new one with Yamaha... see pics attached.
I will need to get me a set of extractors for sure... the bleeder in the slave cylinder is not coming off and it is pretty much rounded... I will get a speed one and put it there once this comes out once it meets the vice.

To be honest, basing my experience in pictures I expected to see some worst scenario there, there is obvious drip from the slave so it is dripping but the outer seal looks pretty intact. The inner seal does look kinda old and dry.
Is there any chance that by taking everything apart and cleaning the rust and putting it back together with some lube it might work again? Then I can still buy the rebuilding kit for spare in the future? Has someone done this before?

I cleaned everything in there pulled the pushrod out and gave it a wipe as well. There is a lot of grime and weird stuff in that area just to the left/ lower side... I mean chain appears at 3 o clock, then at 6 and 7 there is some sort of I don't know maybe an old gasket It cant be just dirt and grease, it looks like something else. Could anyone give me a hint of what that may be based on the attached photos?
I just realized the photos are turned in the forum post so the chain in the photo is at 12 o'clock, then I wonder of hats happening at 3 - 6 in the pictures...
It really looks like just grime in the picture but in the real, it felt way more solid and I rather don't poke it too much... in the case is something that might break even further.

Again thanks for the advice and I will keep you guys posted.