Is motorcycling in general in trouble?

[racerrad8]

I was putting around the internet today and came across these articles:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/nation-now/2018/02/18/harley-davidson-stands-plans-close-kansas-city-plant/349928002/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2018/01/30/harley-davidson-kansas-city-plant-motorcycle-sales-fall/1078008001/

I this what is being noted industry wide or is it as the article mentions, the younger generation just is not as keen about the "hog" as the "Baby Boomers".

Randy - RPM

[TexasDave]

I don't think the younger generation is not appreciative of Hardley. I think this is indicative of a lack of interest in motorcycles in general. They would like to stay inside and play video games and text on their phones. Times are changing.

Dave

[Pat Conlon]

Think HD has trouble now, wait until the EU and the rest of the world retaliates with their tariff.
Oh, wait...that's right, "trade wars are easy to win..."

Interesting to see HD's recent investment in electrics....they must have something in mind.

[aviationfred]

From what I have seen reported in the news. The millenials are like Dave said.... much more interested in staying indoors, playing video games, texting and skyping. Many of the young adults in the major coastal cities of the US do not even have a driver's license. Takes too much effort and is too bothersome. Why do all that and own a car when mass transit can take me where I need to go?
The problem I see with Harley is.... they relied on the baby boomer and generation X, basically everyone over 35 to have sufficient income to afford $15,000-$20,000 motorcycles. They are late to dinner in bringing the two small entry level models into play. Yamaha has a homerun in the FZ07 and the Bolt series. Honda has their entry level redesigned Rebel models. Great bikes in the $4000-$5000 range. Harley can not compete with that.


Fred

[FJ1100mjk]

I don't think the younger generation is not appreciative of Hardley. I think this is indicative of a lack of interest in motorcycles in general.

Dave

Gen Y, and now Gen Z with even less disposable income, have many other, less-expensive, fun things competing for their hard earned dollars. May as well forget about them carrying on the motorcycling torch here.

It's not just the HD sales in this country that are down.

Scooter and small motorcycles sales are thriving in other markets around the world.

Interesting Article About It With Royal Enfield Slant

HD is betting some of their farm on the forecasted electric motorcycle market.

Electric Motorcycles and Scooter Sales Forecast

[Zwartie]

I think there are a number of factors currently at play.

- Back in "our day" that first car or motorcycle provided us with that first taste of freedom and autonomy. It was how we got around to meet up with our friends and get in trouble. Kids today have so many other options to stay in contact with their friends without leaving the house.
- Insurance rates (at least in Ontario) can be astronomical for new drivers and riders. It's not uncommon for a new rider to be quoted $6K per year for motorcycle insurance. That's a show stopper.
- Post secondary education rates keep going up and up well beyond the rate of inflation.
- When I got my first bike (1983) it really was a cheap mode of transportation. Add up the costs to keep a bike on the road today and include decent riding gear and again it becomes too expensive. Up here a motorcycle is not a year round mode of transportation. A small car us way cheaper. We just picked up a little Mazda 3 hatchback as a second vehicle and I'm guessing it gets as good or better mileage than my FJ.
- a young person on their own these days likely pays at least $50 per month for a phone,  close to that for Internet plus a Netflix account, all of this over and above housing and food and there's not much left over for a motorcycle.

As far as HD goes,  we have 6 of the Street 500's at the College and thought that they might be a great bike for the students to practice on. The short answer is nope. They're heavy and clumsy. And that's HD's "small" bike! I remember the first time I rode one I kept thinking that the engine had a familiar sound to it. Then it struck me - it sounds like a 1985 Honda Shadow! Way to catch up Harley! Oh, and now fuel gauge either. Over all, a very disappointing bike.

Zwartie

[mr blackstock]

Despite the economic doom and gloom, and the volumes of accurate reasoning about generations and expenses, and education and employment and tariffs, all motorcycling needs is a bloody good movie, a great actor, a few "one liners" an awesome soundtrack and a good dose of rebellious counter culture!

Most biking groups these days ride lounge chairs or simply drive, all are followed by the back up car and trailer, sadly most kids get their kicks from riding bikes in video games, at least they can go fast!

All over the world kids are getting bikes to save money, screw over their parents, impress their girl, and irritate grandma.  Little has changed.  All over the world 40 somethings are getting a bike to relive a period in their life that didn't involve a mortgage, income insurance, and some kid being their boss.  Little has changed.

The industry will change, riders will buy bikes accordingly, India is knocking out Royal Enfields by the thousand, China makes millions of bikes every year, South East Asia could almost put the scooter on a flag they are that popular!  I think many economists use specific industry's based in America or Europe as key economic indicators, largely ignoring industry's elsewhere that are growing, simply because they are not based in the Northern Hemisphere.  Harley not selling a few thousand bikes compared to last year is a mere drop in the bucket of global bike production, Harley is a niche company that relies on a small slice of the market, succeeding in that slice takes huge skill, good machinery, awesome paint jobs, and merchandising miracles.

Get Brad Pitt or Chris Hemsworth on a bike and watch the sales rocket!   

[PaulG]

...despite a plea by Missouri congressional leaders who reminded the iconic motorcycle maker of the millions of dollars in incentives the state gave to it over the past two decades.

The Ontario gov't said the same thing to GM after they were given 10's of millions, then they moved production out of province, months after "guaranteeing" they wouldn't. Corporate welfare deadbeats, and politicians too stupid to craft an agreement with no penalties for forfeiture.

If this bigly winnable trade war escalates you will see HD lobby the feds like they did in the 80's and tariff the shit out of everything or limit engine ccs on foreign built bikes until they can get their shit together. Again.

If they are entering the ebike market there will be massive subsidies just like with cars.

Maybe they'll end up being the Kodak of the m/c industry.

If you live in the USA and plan on buying a new bike not built there, better make it sooner than later.

Of course only MHO grasshopper.   

[ribbert]

Lots of valid points in there Gareth.

[ribbert]

They all do it but none more so than Harley, they sell an image and it's the image that's tired. They're still pitching to the same demographic they were decades ago and increasingly people do not aspire to that image.

There is nothing a Harley does well yet they remain like a plague over the countryside. If you de badged a Harley (remove the image), can anyone give me a one solitary reason why you would buy one.

Average annual mileage by make in the USA puts Harleys at 1100 miles per year.

Noel

[JPaganel]

Harley is in trouble because for years they sold "lifestyle" rather than motorcycles. They sold nostalgia and feels, and people who bought them are getting older, quitting bikes, dying off.

Motorcycling in general is in trouble, too. At least in US. A huge part of why this is so is the dumbass laws we have. We had them for years.

US is just about the only country that doesn't allow filtering or lane splitting in some form. Everywhere else bikes have an advantage in traffic. In many cities parking rules are similarly stupid - you can't just park the bike where it fits. I've actually been ticketed for "not parking in a parking space".  So, from a practical standpoint,  if you have to drive and park like a car, why not just get a car?

In most (maybe all? ) US states you can't get just a motorcycle license. It's an endorsement on a car license, so even if you don't intend to ever own a car, you have to get two licenses.  So, you're not saving any time or money.

The main problem, though, is that it's ridiculously hard to get a kid on two wheels.  Mopeds need a car license, over-50cc motorcycles need a bike license, which is a pain to get under 18. Over 18, see above - need two licenses. A farm kid can bomb around on a dirt bike, but if you live in the city, you're pretty much screwed. I tried to get my kid a moped permit at 16, but it's a huge pain the ass, and even the DMV doesn't know how that's supposed to work. Plus, the only mopeds we have these days are scooters. There isn't anything that would look like a bike.

Harley is making some motions to appeal to the younger crowd. They aren't going far (or young) enough.

Manufacturers need to look at getting teenagers interested. Make small-engined bikes that look like bikes, and aren't sized for 5-year olds. Put some money in riding schools and tracks. Help them get permits so that a small bike can be a ride to school transport.

Some lobbying to change laws to make motorcycles more appealing would be nice, but there doesn't seem to be anyone to do it. AMA only cares about dirt trails and resisting helmet laws, and I haven't heard of any other organizations.

[PaulG]

A huge part of why this is so is the dumbass laws we have. We had them for years.

Not to go off on a tangent... but I will anyhow...

Back in the early 90's I was in downtown Toronto working at a job site. It was inside the Royal York Hotel and in the lane behind there were a bunch of bikes parked up on a wide walkway next to a waist high concrete wall. Great, I'll park there. When I came out later after midnight there was a m/c cop giving me a ticket for parking there. WTF I bitched. He said if I put my cover over the bike he couldn't give me a ticket. Lifting the cover would be the same as opening a car door to leave it on the dash - he said as he tucked the ticket into my seat and rode off.  Gee thanks.

It was also illegal to park more than one bike in a parking spot on the street. Well they got rid of that a while ago. Congestion was so bad they then allowed free street parking for m/c's about 10 yrs ago. That was great until they reneged and cancelled that perk over a year ago.

So in the future when self driving cars become a reality, what happens to motorcycles?

Sorry it's 3am at work and I'm bored. 

[Sabre093]

I also believe here in Ontario it's getting to a point where you need a good income to even afford to ride.I'm 50 and no tickets and my insurance was almost 900 a year...we get at best 8 months riding,I hear some companies are banning bikes leaving us to a few companies to deal with..IMO it's getting to a point where people can't afford to ride.

[JPaganel]

So in the future when self driving cars become a reality, what happens to motorcycles?

We are just another moving obstacle.

[ryanschoebel]

Coming from a younger guy here ( only 21), I'm in this generation. I dont think that many of the issues listed here are actually the problem. I mean, a few people mentioned cost. Yes, upkeep is a little expensive, but insurance isnt all that much. I pay a measly $19 a month for midline motorcycle coverage. Its not the best, but its also not base coverage. I think that the reason motorcyclists are a dying breed is simply because people these days arent as willing to take risks. People in general have become followers. They see others going out to clubs, or staying in, or doing whatever else, and they assume thats its safe and fun to follow. But riding a motorcycle involves risk, and they arent comfortable with that. Unless they know someone who rides, they are likely only going to hear time and again that motorcycling is dangerous, and not worth the risk. Like Mr. Blackstock said, as soon as someone says that they are okay, like in a movie, or a show, well see it boom again. Kids these days need something to follow. They wont choose to get get a bike, they have to be told to.