1985 FJ600 Ressurection

[PaulG]

 

Had my 1200 GYSM open to the previous page where I was looking at ignition coil testing.

I just bought the FJ600 GYSM and should get it in the mail by mid week.  No harm in waiting to see what it says.  If it turns out to be 120 ohms, then that saves me some time and money.  If that is the value, where the hell does Clymer get their numbers?  Guess I may have to dive back into the carbs again.   

[Pat Conlon]

By looking at your photo of the P/U coils earlier, they look exactly like the FJ P/U coils. They are just mounted on a different plate.

The specs for the FJ P/U coils is 120 ohms and the wiring is identical to yours. (see photo)

Randy - RPM

Randy, Where did the 149-182 ohm values come from?

[racerrad8]

By looking at your photo of the P/U coils earlier, they look exactly like the FJ P/U coils. They are just mounted on a different plate.

The specs for the FJ P/U coils is 120 ohms and the wiring is identical to yours. (see photo)

Randy - RPM

Randy, Where did the 149-182 ohm values come from?

I'm at home now, but I believe the difference between TCI and CDI.

Randy - RPM

[Pat Conlon]

Hey Randy...Remember that saying: The Classic's always come back...,

I checked all 3 sets of my TCI pick up coils on my '84 (1 set oem and 2 sets ebay spares) and they came in at 158-160 ohms range (well over 120 ohms).
If you recall, I sent you an e-mail a couple of years ago (2015) and you responded that checked both your TCI and DCI pick up coils in your shop, and they also came in at the 160-165 ohm range. I'm still running my oem '84 pick up coils and they are fine. Bike runs great.

What's up?

[PaulG]

Got the FJ600 GYSM in the mail this week.  For pickup coil resistance 120 ohm is correct so that's ok.  But that still hasn't solved my problems.

I did a few more gas down-the-plug-hole tests on #1&3 cylinders.  It seemed to fire up better now for a few seconds.  After a few more tests I checked the plugs and they started to show some evidence of combustion.  Time to take off the carbs and clean again.  I only did #1&3 this time.  I can't find any cans of Berrymans carb stripper anywhere (which is supposed to be the best I guess) - so I searched the web and tried the Pine-Sol method.  I know-I know! Save it for later  .  Bought a gal jug ($4) of it and soaked them (after disassembly) for 2hrs - blew out - soaked 2hrs - blew out - rinsed with hot water blew out - rinsed with acetone - blew out - reassembled.

Upon restart I thought I got #3 running with 2&4, but #1 still cold.  I took off #1 and repeated the above procedure.  I rechecked the wet levels in the carbs and  they were all in spec.  Restarted again and still #1&3 cold. In retrospect think the #3 pipe was heating up either through intermittent firing or just through conduction ....Sooooo....  before I take the carbs off again....

I looked over the results of the plug cap resistance as the GYSM has a 10K ohm spec with no +/- variation.  I took a cap from my 1200 and switched it with the #1 cylinder.  The 1200 ran fine with the 600 cap, but the 600 was still cold with the 1200 cap.

I pulled the cap off #1 cylinder and got plenty of spark from the cable.  But when I pulled off the cable from #3 with the cap still on (while running) I started getting a shock through the bars and frame.  I double checked this by standing on the aluminum plate that the centre stand is on - just to make sure I had a good ground...   

After pulling the cap off #3 - though there was plenty of spark from the cable - there was no more shock coming from it.  Now I switched a cap from the 1200 with #3 cylinder.  There was still a shock from the cable with the cap on - but not attached to the plug.  But again no shock with the cap off the wire.

I had already cleaned the ground wire contact at the coil and nipped back the cables to get some fresh wire in contact with the caps.  I've even switched the plugs around to make sure they weren't bad (despite being brand new).

My questions are this:

• Is it probable I am still facing a fuel pickup issue with #1&3 carbs?
• After I clean up the ground contact and coil mounts again - if the shock from #3 returns - how should I proceed?
• If I have two different issues at the same time - which one first?

[PaulG]

An update regarding my electrocution issue.  I discovered that both cyl's 1&3 (the two that don't fire up) are giving me the Dr Ho treatment through the frame/bars.  I rubbed the mounting points, ground wire connection, and battery ground to motor with medium emory cloth.  Still getting a zap coming through. It's nothing major.  Just a strong tiingling.  Can't tell if #'s 2&4 have the same problem cuz the bike stalls after I pull the cap on one of them.

I decided to buy some new NGK caps (OEM prohibitively expensive at $28 each! ).  Good thing for as I pulled one off it crumbled in my hand.  These were from the spare set and tested OK for resistance.  This still didn't cure the problem.  I even switched back to the original coils and still no change.  I reversed the cables between 1&4 and 2&3, and the 1&3 still would not fire (can't remember if I did this already so I did it anyhow), and I still got zapped.

So I've reached the limitations of my expertise already reagrding this.  The troubleshooting guide in the GYSM is of no use at this point as I have checked everything in it.

As I contemplate my next step regarding this, I decide to try the compression test.  The reason is; I am also suspicious that my fuel pick-up/ignition issue may be due to low compression in those cylinders, rather than carb related.  If I can rule that as a positive then I can leave the carbs alone for a while.  If my compression is ok then I may open the carbs again - if I can get the electrotherapy issue resolved first.

My brother gave me a tester he only used once.  While trying to remove it from it's cheap plastic shell the guage falls on the ground and pops off the glass face and it's retaining ring.  Auspicious start  .  Once attached the gauge just bounces from 0 to somewheres around 60-100psi (cold engine).  The needle doesn't stop at it's peak like it's supposed to, so it's impossible to read.  I doublecheck it on my 1200 and I get the same behaviour - bouncing between 0 and ~80-120psi (cold engine).  I think the gauge is broken so today I went to Canadian Tire and bought this Equus 3612 Compression Tester Kit.  I didn't realize it was the exact same one my brother gave me - and it performed exactly the same way  - so I took it back for a refund.  Being Sunday I was limited in my options.  I checked on my phone and Wal-Mart sold the same one - Princess Auto had a basic one which looked promising but upon seeing it, it was obviously too basic - too big a fitting and no adaptors (even though the package said so - and they sold no adaptors separately).

How hard can it be to find a basic compression tester in a city of nearly 3 million people - that actually works?   Apparently not that easy.  My next source would be NAPA to see if they have this in stock Evercraft Tools.  This will be a few days from now as it's the holiday weekend and I'm back to work on Tues.

Am I progessing?  I suppose so.  I've learned how to better use the multimeter in diagnosis which is a plus.  Is the bike running on 4 cylinders yet? No.... 

So if you have any theory or fact on why this bike likes to zap me (other than a Steven King short story) - feel free to enlighten me cuz I am stumped.

I just realized on typing this I could swap out the coils from my 1200 and see what happens.  The primary, secondary, and cap resistance specs are the same.  If everything fires up with no consequences then great - if nothing changes then not-so-great 

[Country Joe]

Paul,
You probably don't need a new compression gauge. Try changing out the valve core in the end of the hose that screws into the spark plug hole. That valve core is what should hold the pressure in the gauge until you press the pressure release button.
Joe

[PaulG]

Paul,
You probably don't need a new compression gauge. Try changing out the valve core in the end of the hose that screws into the spark plug hole. That valve core is what should hold the pressure in the gauge until you press the pressure release button.
Joe

  That's why it has two adaptors with two different orifice sizes. Makes sense now.  Thanks. Just learned something again.    Would have been nice if the instructions mentioned that. Would have been nice if I wasn't such a "____________"  I'll check it out tomorrow.

[Country Joe]

It's all good! I didn't know that there was a tire valve stem core in those hoses until I was using 4 of them at a time to check compression on V 12 Waukesha natural gas engines. I had to have a box of valve stem cores at all times on my service truck. They don't tolerate having chunks of carbon blowing through them very well.

[PaulG]

More putzin' around - some answers and still some questions...

First off thanks to Country Joe for the tip on the valve core for the compression gauge.    I took a valve out of a spare rear wheel for the 600 and compared it to the POS that was in the hose for the gauge.  Left one is the original in the hose and the right one is from the tire.  The original had this stupid exterior "spring" which you can just see squished at the bottom of the valve.  It was more like a fine string of soldering wire that was wrapped around it.  The one from the tire has the internal spring.  Once changed it worked as it should.  I'll bet that trick is something they don't tell you in mechanics class.  I'll get to the compression test in a bit...



First though, I swapped out the coils and cables from my 1200 to the 600.  Once started it immediately fired up on 3 cyl (2-3-4) instead of 2&4 like before.  But I was still getting the trickle charge from all of the cables when I disconnected them while running and cylindedr #1 is still not firing.

Next comes the compression test.  Because the bike was not properly warmed up I was looking for comparative values as opposed to absolute values.  I don't know if values this low are representative of a relativley cold engine, or if they are way too low cold or not.  Until I can get all 4 cyls running I won't be able to heat the bike up properly to get a proper absolute value.  I also did the oil-in-cylinder test.

CYLINDER                 1                2                  3                   4            GYSM Spec (PSI)

                             60              50                 50                 70            142 - 164

with oil                  190             220                250               230

The manual states if the pressure during the oil test rises above spec then "Inspect cylinder head, valve surfaces, or piston crown for carbon deposits."

Okay.  I guess it's time to clean out the basement and bring her down peicemeal for the winter.  Again, if anybody could point me in a direction as to how to trace this short in the coils before I take it apart - much appreciated.  I was thinking that maybe both sets of coils were bad, but by swapping out from the 1200 that might not be the case.

Worst case scenario is I could piggy-back the spare wiring harness over the bike and just start reconnecting things one at a time to see if the short goes away. 

[PaulG]

I was going to try one last thing before I start disassembly for the winter. I'd like to hook up the spare wiring harness and see if it will run on all 4 cylinders.  I've done just about every test I could think of so I'm wondering if there is a pinched wire somewhere in the works.

Wondering what the minimum connections are required to do this. I remember reading a similar question a while ago for someone's project on their 1200 but can't seem to find it, even with the mighty Google.

I have been jumping the bike from my 1200 or car to do the tests.

[PaulG]

Started tracing the electrical system off and on over the last couple of weeks.  I remembered several posts about checking the sidestand switch as it can cause funny things to happen.  After removing the switch I jumpered the connection with a copper wire and still had the same resullt - #1 not firing and the tingling shock through the ignition cables.

I fiddled with it a bit and started to get an intermittent connection when I tried to restart the bike.  I put the switch back on and again got an intermittent connection trying to turn it over.  While fiddling with the siedstand connection I failed to notice this hidden amongst all the grime...



... so I nipped back the wire and replaced the bullet connector and got it back together.  Probably not the source of my problems, but a future problem fixed for now.

I decided to finally piggyback the spare wiring harness over the bike and attach all the relevant connections to try and see if it will start-up with all cylinders that way.  Aaaannnnd..... nuthin'.  Not a sausage.

I have power to the signals and horn but when I push the starter button theres nothing.  Just the oil light flicking off when the button is pushed. When I flick the kill switch on/off all I hear is the sidestand relay clicking.   I connect my spare starter switch and nothing.  Oh well I reconnect the bike's harness, and original starter switch and doublecheck all the connections.  Aaaaaannnnnd.... guess!  Nada! 

I didn't attempt to start-up the bike before I decided to piggyback the spare harness, so I don't know if this condition already existed before this.  I even replace the starter solenoid with a spare and still nothing.

I've been using the car battery to jump start it while troubleshooting for the last while, but I don't think that is the problem (is it?).

So I have power to all the auxilliary electrics, just not to the starter/ignition circuit.  Any ideas?  I'll be putting her downstairs before the end of Oct so I don't have much time left to keep putzin' around.  If I can't figure it out by then it will have to wait until when it comes back into the sunshine in another 18 months (?)

[Kadettgek]

What colour does the spark of cal 1 & 3 have?
Put a spark plug into the cap and hold it against the engine block. See what that does.
You can also test the spark in cil 2 &4 this way. (it will spark during if you try to start it)

If you get a spark it is more likely a fuel problem. You won't be the first one to have float needles stuck after a carb rebuild.
Try tapping (gently) on the side of the carbs. this might loosen them a bit.

[Bezmozek]

One last idea, highly unlikely, but possible and does not see from pictures if you have done this.
If PO tightened pilot screws too tight, it is possible, that when you have tried to loosen those, brass bolt is broken into halves and spike got stuck inside, so even if you are able to turn it counter clockwise to add fuel for idle, it is still fully closed.
Seen this only once on Japanese bike, but....
try to take out all pilot screws ad check if they are OK.

[PaulG]

What colour does the spark of cal 1 & 3 have?  I put in new plugs and #1&3 didn't show any combustion i.e. shiny new electrode.  #2&4 did show combustion.  As previous, when I did the gas-in-plug hole test I did get them to fire up for a secend.  After several of these there looked like there was some soot starting to build up on them.
Put a spark plug into the cap and hold it against the engine block. See what that does.
You can also test the spark in cil 2 &4 this way. (it will spark during if you try to start it).  I've done this and there was spark from all 4 cables.  But like I've been saying I get mildly zapped when I take the cable off the plugs for 1&3 when it's running.

If you get a spark it is more likely a fuel problem. You won't be the first one to have float needles stuck after a carb rebuild.
Try tapping (gently) on the side of the carbs. this might loosen them a bit. I installed new float needle sets when I cleaned out the carbs, so I don't think this should be the case.  I'll be checking them again over the winter though.

One last idea, highly unlikely, but possible and does not see from pictures if you have done this.
If PO tightened pilot screws too tight, it is possible, that when you have tried to loosen those, brass bolt is broken into halves and spike got stuck inside, so even if you are able to turn it counter clockwise to add fuel for idle, it is still fully closed.
Seen this only once on Japanese bike, but....
try to take out all pilot screws ad check if they are OK. That's certainly something I've never heard of before.  I'll double check this winter, but everything seemed ok when I blew out all the ports.  And I didn't have any leftover bits when I was finished too! 

Thanks for the input guys.  I'll keep it in mind when it all comes back together....