1985 FJ600 Ressurection

[PaulG]

Some dummy said:

Just have to keep the horse before the cart - which I still haven't mastered after all these years.

For the past few weeks I have been consumed by carburetors.  When inspecting the 2nd set of carbs I overlooked the idle screws.  Three of four were siezed in place.  I tried using a heat gun, then a propane torch, but they wouldn't budge.  So it was time to drill....  Two came out no problem. But the one for #4 proved stubborn. And before I knew it I had butcherd it completely.  I won't show a picture because it's just too humiliating.   

Now I 've read a lot of stuff here about extractors etc, and not to use them if possible.  Well I have bit of confession to make.  I was a kid who would sometimes do things - when told specifically not to - just because I wanted to know why.  Like sticking my finger in a light socket (after my dad told me not too while he got a new bulb).  Getting my tongue stuck on a frozen piece of of steel in the winter (I was tricked by my brother!)... and later in my terrible teens - smoking a bug after finding it in a bag of Columbian herb (on a dare from my buddy - hey Tommy Chong did it in "Nice Dreams").  So now I know why/why not.  Lesson learned.   

Back to the topic at hand...  so I butchered the #4 carb.  No sweat.  I have the original ones from the bike and I'll just swap out the carb bodies.  I proceed to dismantle the original only to realize it is the one with the broken float tab mount!  So I'm SOL for a #4 carb.  YOU IDIOT!      But I remember another parts source on the internet - and he lived only a few blocks from where I work - and he had carb bits for sale.  After nearly a week of back and forth due to our conflicting schedules we finally meet up.  The carbs he had were a  literal basket case - but all I really needed was the #4 body.  Upon inspection I see that somebody had done the same thing and drilled out the pilot screw.  I tested it with a screw and it went in fine, so the damage was just cosmetic to the top of the entry. Saved by the internet again.   




I bought the basket of carb bits - and another set of front forks for $50.  They seemed less rusty than the ones I had so I'll see how they turn out.   I now had three sets of carbs and had to make one good set out of them.  The kitchen counter was invaluable for this.




I was going to swap out the diaphragms from the 1st set and use the needles from the 2nd set.  They were the only thing salvageable from the originals and were in better condition.  But upon disassembling everything I realized something was different about the 2nd set of diaphragm needles.  There was 4mm of play up and also sideways.  So I took apart the original set to compare them.  The originals are on the right, the 2nd set on the left.  So what's different?



The 2nd set is missing the donut with the lock pin (for want of a better description).  Plus the 2nd set has shorter needles.  I wonder how his bike could run with so much slop in those needles.



I decide to stay with the stock set-up so I just disassembled the originals, cleaned them out and installed them.

Now I remember there was a crankcase breather filter in the spare parts I bought.  This could mean these carbs were set up for air pods which means the jetting could be different from stock.  So I start pulling them out to check the numbers and compare them to the Clymer manual.... What numbers I can make out don't even come close to what's in the manual.  Then I realize the manual only has specs for BS28 carbs.  The FJ 600 has BS32 carbs FFS!    So the Clymer manual is probably spec'd for the XJ550/600.  I've also found out that cyl 1&2 have 105 main jets and 3&4 are 102.5 (stock).    I can't read anything on these, but there is a bag that came with the originals with all four new main jets in these sizes.  So I guess I'll put them in and see what happens....

Gotta get me that GYSM soon.

Well now that I'm almost there I also waited on new float needles/seats and bowl gaskets.  Installed them today and did and initial fuel level check using the wet test.  The manual says to do it on the bike - and shim the centre stand to make everything perfectly level... blah blah blah.  Fuck that!  I'll use that new Aussie invention that showed up here just recently.  A vice and a pair of Vice Grips!  What ingenuity!   



I used methyl hydrate (methyl alcohol) to do this instead of gas.  Used a level on the carbs as per the manual.  It's supposed to be 2mm +/- 1mm from the bowl flange.




It's in the ball park for now without adjusting the floats.  Hopefully they're already set-up properly. (?)  And nothing overflowed (that's a first for me...).  I will recheck them once they're on the bike.  Tomorrow I can put them on the 600 and see if she fires up...   

Running costs so far:

Purchase Price      $300
Van Rental            $84.69
Tie-Downs            $28.24
Gas for Rental       $19.20
OEM Oil Filters (2)  $25.40
OEM Air Filter        $49.22
Used Vehicle
History                 $20
Ownership
Transfer               $71
4L Yamalube         $39.61
Engine Gaskets     $41.17
3L Castrol            $22.39
Kleen Flo             $7.33
Used Parts           $120
1gal ea
Varsol/Acetone/
CLR/Methyl Alc.    $75
Carb Repair Kit      $140

Sub Total            $1043.25

[Bezmozek]

I think it is too late to tell you that this will be lot of time and money to make her run again.
I wish to have carbs clean as yours in my FJ.
So don't give up and good luck.

BTW: Can you please measure brake caliper gap? 1100/1200 have same ones, but probably wider? thx

[PaulG]

I think it is too late to tell you that this will be lot of time and money to make her run again.
I wish to have carbs clean as yours in my FJ.
So don't give up and good luck.

BTW: Can you please measure brake caliper gap? 1100/1200 have same ones, but probably wider? thx

Well if I sink enough into it, I don't have to lie to the wife when I say "Sorry honey, I can't loan you any money. I'm broke."     I'm not a very good liar.

The front caliper gap looks like 27mm.

This was a set of carbs from the parts I bought and they were already fairly clean.  I just used some dish soap and hot water and a tooth brush on them.  Then did the same thing with acetone.  If I was able to use the original carbs they would have needed a long ultrasonic bath (which I don't have).

Progress Report:

Changed the oil and filter but had a hard time getting the filter out.  It has stock exhaust and it should have slipped out between #2&3 headers.  Had to loosen both and pull them apart.  Then had to slide up the filter til it had enough clearance.  I wouldn't think this was normal, so I'm wondering if #2&3 headers are reversed.  They look to be slightly shorter in length than #1&4.  What should have been 10 min took almost an hour.

Carb installation hit a snag so I won't be attempting anything with that until later next week.  This working for a living keeps getting in the way of living.   

[X-Ray]

Good going so far, having mismatched bits inside the carbs would make it a nightmare to get running properley. Getting everything back to stock sizes gives you a good base to work from for sure

[Bezmozek]

.. so I'm wondering if #2&3 headers are reversed.  They look to be slightly shorter in length than #1&4.  What should have been 10 min took almost an hour.

Inner and outer pipes have different length, so if mismatched, you will not be able to fit both halves of exhaust as connecting pipe will be in wrong angle.
I think that downpipes have same bolts on the lower end, same as 1100/1200.
All those bolts should face inwards, to the centre of bike.
Sorry, sold my 600 many years ago, do not remember oil filter change, hope this helps.

Thx for measuring caliper, 1100/1200 ones are 29mm wide, for now it will work.

[ZOA NOM]

I love this... Makes me miss my '84...

[PaulG]

So what's been going on lately?  Carbs Carbs Carbs... again.  After getting them assembled I was finally able to install them last week.  But for the life of me I couldn't push them into the manifolds.  After several attempts I was forced to step back and rethink/panic at what was wrong.

The possibilities were:

• wrong engine in frame? - but the numbers matched...
• wrong size manifolds? - the i/d was only 2mm smaller than the o/d of the carb throat

My initial panic lessened after a couple of days.  I converesed with a fellow member re this and we compared measurements with his 600.  Everything seemd nominal.  I called the guy I had bought the basket case carbs from, and he told me his olde tymie mechanic said that it's a common problem with older bikes.  In fact he had to use a PVC pipe and a heat gun to get one of his to fit on the 600 he was restoring.  I didn't think I needed to do that, so I fired up the tea kettle.



I soaked each one for a 5min in boiling hot water and they slipped on quite easily.  Great I thought.  Now I can just bolt the whole assembly on, right?  If I had the fingers of an I-Phone production assembler I probably could have.    But #'s 2&3 were inaccessible as many of you were probably already aware.



So back to the conventional method.  Except they were still impossible to push in now.  I had already put a film of grease on the carbs and manifolds.  I needed something slipperier so out comes the can of Lithium spray lubricant -  and two tire irons.  With some prodigious effort they finally popped in.  Aaannnnnd..... I forgot to attach the aux. tank line before I did this.   

Now I fiddle around incessantly trying to fish this gas line down there.  To facilitate this I undo the 2 carb cap bolts that secure the throttle cable holder.  Both of which slip out of my slimy grip down into that nether region of carbs/starter/alternator.  But I got the hose on.  But now my butterflies are stuck 1/2 open when I tested the throttle.  It's getting dark and I'm starting to grind my teeth.   

Three days later...  I thought the butterliy binding may have been too aggressive with the tire irons.  But upon removal I find both cap screws jammed in the throttle mechanisim.  Phew!  So back on go the carbs.  This time they took less effort, though I still need to use the tire iron as a wedge.  The license plate was last registered in 1999, so I imagine if the carbs were off for an extended period of time, and considering the age of the rubber, they were just too stiff - even with only a 2mm difference - to insert easily.  I think as time goes on they should get easier to pull on/off.

So my first attempt at starting went nowhere.  The stock fuel line set-up has vacuum lines attached to the manifolds - 2&3 are joined and 1&4 are joined and T'd to the fuel tank.  I wondered what to do as the Clymer manual is usless in this respect.  I plugged the end with my finger but she wouldn't start.




After texting with our fellow member it was suggested to cap off the ports.  He rides his this way without the vac hoses and says it runs fine.  So now the adventure begins.  How hard is it to find caps for vacc ports?  That depends on what you are willing to put up with.  My local Canadian Tire had a set of 8 in 4 sizes (2prs & 4 single).  So not wanting to spend $20 on several packages that I wouldn't need, I sauntered over to the Yamaha dealer.  Why it's only $40 for 4 including clamps.  So I decide to saunter over to the aftermarket dealer - Yamaha vacc caps are OEM only so I would have to go back to the dealer - so I go over to a different Canadaian Tire store to buy the multipacks only to find that particular store doesn't have any - but he suggests going to the auto parts supplier just around the corner - who doesn't keep them in stock because nobody uses them anymore - but he says Home depot has something in their nut'n'bolts section - which they do but are screw protector caps - goodfuckingenuff for now!  I've wasted 2hrs doing this - plus I couldn't get any dog food cuz the plaza had no power.   

And the result was this....  1985 FJ600 "start-up"

Running very rough - #1 cyl not firing. Did a carb balance by ear just to get the revs down from 4K to 1K.  Did the finger burn test on the headers to confirm #1 was cool.  Switched #1&4 cables and #1 still cold.  Switched #1&4 plugs (though they're brand new) and #1 still cold.

Turned it off for a bit to go inside, when I restarted now #1&3 not firing.  Ok.  I have a spare set of coils which I can swap out to check everything again.

Maybe another update tomorrow.  I'm on holiday til after Labour Day so I might be able to spend some extra time between hacking out the jungle that's called a yard.

BTW - I've been conversing with several people so far - they shall remane nameless for now in case this thing goes south.  Wouldn't want to taint their reps.  Full appreciation will be lauded upon succesful completion.... eventually.   

[Bezmozek]

  congrats, great job.

cap off the ports...hmm, you will need them anyway with tank.
Just change hoses for new ones, connect as was before and for now, blind the tank part with M6 bolt.
If there is no air leak, this does not affect the engine.

Check all wiring, at least groundings near coils and if you make all cylinders run, sync carbs properly, this sounds, like crank bearings are worn out

[PaulG]

I took the video with my phone.  It sounds different through the mic than in reality. I noticed it too after listening for the first time.  Standing beside the machine there is no real knocking noise.  But it's something I will keep an ear out for.

I've already changed out the vacc and fuel hoses (they're in the pic). All original fuel lines were brittle and cracking.

[PaulG]

Now I am chasing why #1&3 cylinders won't fire.

I am getting zero combustion in those two cylinders. The plugs remain shiny new out of the box. The rundown so far with troubleshooting is this:

• cleaned connectors for coils, ignitor, regulator and lubed with dielectric grease - no change
• swapped out each coil one at a time with spare set - no change

Then... What I should have done first - measured coil resistance.    Now the Clymer manual doesn't specially say to remove the caps. In fact it says to measure sec. resistance from the connector to the cap, (which gave me nada) - whereas the 1200 Clymer & GYSM say to remove the cap - and measure it separately. So I followed that procedure instead. The 600 manual gives no numbers for cap resistance. The spec listed for the caps is for the 1200.  I'll see if I can find anyhthing on the net re these.  If anyone has a number for these it would be greatly appreciated.    I don't know whether there is any difference between a 1200 cap and a 600 cap.

                                                    Prim ♎️ (2.25 - 3.25)                Sec ♎️ (8.8K - 13.2K)                Cap ♎️ (9K - 11K)

Original Coil 1/4.                                   3.1                                       13,500                                  #1.    4,250
                                                                                                                                               #2.     ----
Original Coil 2/3                                    3.0.                                      13,100                                  #3.     ----
                                                                                                                                               #4.     ----

Spare Coil 1/4                                      3.1                                       13,000                                  #1.    8,820
                                                                                                                                               #2.    9,740
Spare Coil 2/3                                      3.1.                                      13,030                                  #3.   11,660
                                                                                                                                               #4.    8,980

At first glance it appears both sets of coils are OK but the caps for the original set are pooched. Since the spare set seems to have good caps, then I need to look elsewhere.

Next step is to pull off the pickup coil and measure that. A PIA as the connector is behind the sprocket/shifter case (I think) but needs to be done.  If that's OK then it's back to the carbs (blocked passages?). My brother also mentioned to check the compression (need to buy the tool).  If it's too low it may not be able to draw in any gas to combust - maybe from seized rings - or maybe a hole the size of my head in them...   

Any suggestions re the next direction are welcome (other than trashing it - this is schooling after all   ).  All this modern electricity stuff is new to me, so unknown territory.  Of all the things I will learn the most it will be troubleshooting and fixing these issues.   

BTW the pickup coil is missing the ignition timing pointer screw (R-side of pic).  Anything special about this or will any screw do? 

[Pat Conlon]

....Next step is to pull off the pickup coil and measure that. A PIA as the connector is behind the sprocket/shifter case (I think) but needs to be done.  :

There is no need to remove your pick up coils for testing.
Simply follow the coil's wire lead to where it plugs into the ignition box, unplug and test the ohms from that plug.

A point of caution: Both the Clymer and Haynes manuals show the wrong ohm value for the pick up coil testing on the FJ1100's and 1200's .
Is it the same for the FJ600's? I don't know.
You are safe if you get the ohm values from the Genuine Yamaha Factory Service Manual for your FJ600.

Hope this helps.

Pat

[oldktmdude]

   Paul, you need to stop thinking in circles. The easiest way to tell if your problem is electrical or fuel related is to pull the plugs from cylinders 1and 3, pour a SMALL amount of fuel into the plug holes, refit the plugs and leads and hit the start button. If it fires you know that it's not an electrical problem. Do the simple things first.
   Regards, Pete.

[PaulG]

   Paul, you need to stop thinking in circles. The easiest way to tell if your problem is electrical or fuel related is to pull the plugs from cylinders 1and 3, pour a SMALL amount of fuel into the plug holes, refit the plugs and leads and hit the start button. If it fires you know that it's not an electrical problem. Do the simple things first.
   Regards, Pete.

Yeah I forgot to mention I tried that. No indication on the plugs that it fired up. I'll double check that before I check the pickup coil.  Maybe my small amount of gas wasn't small enough.

Which brings me to...

There is no need to remove your pick up coils for testing.
Simply follow the coil's wire lead to where it plugs into the ignition box, unplug and test the ohms from that plug.

A point of caution: Both the Clymer and Haynes manuals show the wrong ohm value for the pick up coil testing on the FJ1100's and 1200's .
Is it the same for the FJ600's? I don't know.
You are safe if you get the ohm values from the Genuine Yamaha Factory Service Manual for your FJ600.

Hope this helps.

Pat

Thanks for the shortcut. I'll be surfing for a 600 GYSM now.  I had my eye on one nearby, but I think it's gone now.

[PaulG]

I did a doublecheck on the firing by putting a bit of gas through the spark plug holes for cyl's 1&3 again.  Test was inconclusive.  I thought it may have started a bit eaier and ran better for a few seconds - but upon inspection of the plugs they didn't seem to change. i.e. not a hint of combustion.  Could have been an overeager imagination listening for something that wasn't there. I decided to go ahead and check the pickup coils.

I have to keep reminding myself this Clymer manual covers 1981-92 XJ550/600 & FJ600's - so it tends to be quite confusing especially with wiring.  The instructions for most chapters usually refer to the 81-83 XJ550 - Though there is a wiring diagram for the FJ600 (alleged 84-85 XJ600 L/LC/N/NC) it doesn't match my bike.  After much scratching of head    I have realized that my bike conforms more to the 81-83 XJ550 - at least in terms of pickup coil wiring according to the FIVE different wiring diagrams that have to be dealt with.

The book said I should have a Bl/Or & Br/Gr from p/u's to ignitor.  But I have Bl/Or & Bl/Gr at the p/u's (as seen in the pic in the previous post).  At the ignitor connection there is only 3 wires - Bl/Or/Gr....  the FJ600 wiring diagram says I should have Bl/Gr & Bl/Or at the connector & p/u's...    Still with me so far?  Don't blame you if you've bailed already.  I spend some time perusing the diagrams to figger out what I got.    In the 81-83 XJ550 diagram it shows the Bl/Or & Br/Gr pairing at the coils - but the Br splices into the black so at the ignitor there is only the trio of Bl/Or/Gr like what I have...  I'll ignore the the fact there seems to be no brown wiring on my 600.  For now that is what I'm going with.



Now that's sorta been figgered out I mesaure the resistance across the connections.  The book says measure across the Bl/Or then Br/Gr.  Since I have only three wires I measure across the Bl/Or & Bl/Gr.

I get 120 ohms across each.  The spec in the book says 650 ohms +/- 10%.   Soooo after all that is it safe to say the pickup coils need replacing?  Or do I need to restart at GO.

I found a GYSM for the 600 in Manitoba.  Just texted him to make sure it was in English too.  Some service manuals in Canada are English & French while some may just be English or French. My French is not even good enough to get slapped.

[racerrad8]

By looking at your photo of the P/U coils earlier, they look exactly like the FJ P/U coils. They are just mounted on a different plate.

The specs for the FJ P/U coils is 120 ohms and the wiring is identical to yours. (see photo)

Randy - RPM