generator mounting bolt missing

[fjbiker84]

Mark, thanks for the offer!  This weekend looks good weather-wise.  Would you be available Saturday or Sunday?

[FJmonkey]

PM sent.

[Dads_FJ]

Can you reach in there with a Dremel with a cutting disc to cut a slot into the head of the frozen bolt?
That way you could use an inpact driver with a straight screw driver bit to fit the slot.
If not, you will have to reverse drill the frozen bolt.
To help unfreeze the bolt, some penetrating oil and heat on where the case threads are located will help.

This is now several times (over the years) where I have heard of the 2 bolt mount generators breaking the bolts.

I wonder if a bolt upgrade to a SAE 10.9 would be a good idea?

I replaced my broken bolt with a hardened one and tightened it 'just snug' using a dab of low strength Loctite.  It's still there after over 2 decades.

[ribbert]

I replaced my broken bolt with a hardened one and tightened it 'just snug' using a dab of low strength Loctite.  It's still there after over 2 decades.

Yes, I second that, high tensile bolt and don't over tighten. I wouldn't bother with loctite but it can't hurt either.

IMO

Noel

[FJ_Hooligan]

That broken bolt should twist right out. 

Any stress on the threads would have been relieved when the shoulder of the bolt broke off.

Try some heat on the other stuck bolt.  Or, you could possibly drill the head off of it and it should twist out like the broken bolt (assuming there's no aggressive thread locker on the bolts)

[CutterBill]

...... the remaining bolt is frozen.  I pretty much stripped the bolt trying to get it off.  

Did you strip the threads (bolt turns but won't come out) or did you round off the head of the bolt?  I'm guessing that you meant the latter.  I will also guess that this was caused by using a 12-point socket...

Tip 1: Never use (buy) 12-point sockets; they just don't have the gripping power of a 6-point socket.
Tip 2: I always spread a dab of anti-seize compound on any bolt (and sparkplug) that threads into aluminum.  This prevents seized bolts.  No, it will not cause the bolts to loosen in use.
Tip 3: For some reason (cost?), Yamaha really liked using low-strength bolts on the FJ's.  Going stronger (12.9) won't hurt a thing.
Tip 4: You can buy pretty much any bolt you want... metric, high-strength, hex-head, flanged hex-head, socket-head, silver or black, any length... from McMaster.com  Their online catalog is awesome.
Tip 5: NEVER use those damn Easy-Outs.  They will only wedge themselves into the hole you drilled and then snap off.  Then you're REALLY screwed.  Left-hand drill is the best method, with patience, penetrating oil, heat and patience; I've never had one not work.
Tip 6: It's been said before but to repeat... the "phillips-head" screws on Japanese bikes are NOT phillips-head.  They are JIS-head screws.  They are NOT the same.  Do yourself a huge favor and buy the nice #1, #2 & #3 JIS screwdrivers from McMaster.  A touch pricey, but you won't believe how much better they work.

Good luck with that lower bolt.
Bill

[simi_ed]

+ 1.
All solid advice. Use at your own risk 

[fjbiker84]

I rounded off the head of the remaining bolt.  I did use a six point socket and tapped it in place to make sure it was completely seated but still didn't work.  I'm was thinking that the easiest thing may be to just break off the head of this bolt in order to remove the generator.  Once that is off I think there will be room to use a reverse drill bit. Will update this on how it worked out.

[aviationfred]

Just a word of caution and Murphy's Law. You are getting close to the FJ Rally Cardinal Rule...

 No Major Repairs or Modifications within 30 days prior to the Rally you are planning to attend.

If there are no issues with the operation of the alternator, you may want to consider leaving it as is until after the WCR.

For those with more knowledge of the early FJ's with the 2 bolt alternators. Please chime in if my advise is wrong and having 2 bolts securing the alternator is a critical function

Fred

[FJmonkey]

I have LH drill bits if you don't get to it by Sunday. And a Dremal, impact driver (air and hammer), and maybe a few new swear words to add to your vocabulary. And the coffee you mentioned.

[racerrad8]

Tip 2: I always spread a dab of anti-seize compound on any bolt (and sparkplug) that threads into aluminum.  This prevents seized bolts.  No, it will not cause the bolts to loosen in use.

Bill

No....

...As far as the lubricants, they are a no-no, at least with NGK plugs: https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs

The problem I see with anti-seize is as the combustion temps are enough to carbonize the oil of the anti-seize, the only thing left in the threads is the powered metal component. That then galls the threads on the way out, pulling the weaker aluminum from the head.

Randy - RPM

[simi_ed]

+ 1.
All   Mostly solid advice. Use at your own risk 

Quote from: CutterBill on Yesterday at 03:54:49 PM

Tip 2: I always spread a dab of anti-seize compound on any bolt (and sparkplug) that threads into aluminum.  This prevents seized bolts.  No, it will not cause the bolts to loosen in use.

Bill

No....

Quote from: racerrad8 on October 10, 2016, 10:57:07 AM
...As far as the lubricants, they are a no-no, at least with NGK plugs: https://www.ngksparkplugs.com/about-ngk/spark-plug-101/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs

The problem I see with anti-seize is as the combustion temps are enough to carbonize the oil of the anti-seize, the only thing left in the threads is the powered metal component. That then galls the threads on the way out, pulling the weaker aluminum from the head.

Randy - RPM

====

I also have used anti-sieze or grease on my sparkplugs for years, without any issue.  I still think Bill is offering sound advice, but I will defer to the experts from RPM and NGK.

Ed

[FJ_Hooligan]

I used high temperature Permatex Anti-Seize on the sparkplugs of my '85 and had the exact problem that Randy described.

One day when pulling the plugs for a valve check, it seemed like they were stuck in some kind of gooey muck.  It required quite a bit of force to unscrew them, but I took my time (and even sprayed some WD-40) and slowly they came out.

Then, as I was cleaning the dried anti-seize off of them, I noticed there was aluminum in the threads of the #2 plug.  Sure enough, I unpeeled the cylinder threads right off of the plug.  That incident lead to the discovery of Time-Serts.  I managed to clean the a/s off of my '93 before it caused any problems.

Now I just give sparkplugs a quick shot of WD-40 and install them.

Maybe if you change your plugs often and reapply then it's not a problem, but my experience says to stick with Randy's advice.

[racerrad8]

Sorry for the thread jack...

We fixed two spark plug holes yesterday in a guys race car.

He brought the car over to adjust the valves. We went to remove the plugs and two pulled the threads. He went on to tell me he "always" uses anti-seize on the spark plugs.

That makes six so far this year I have had to heli-coil, I usually do 25-30 a year. I do so many I bought a kit specifically for the spark plug repair that dies not require the use of a drill. The "tap" is a two step ream & tap combined. I have a fitting I put in the intake manifold, I open the intake valves and pump in a few pounds of air. The chips fly out of the hole as I am tapping it.

The tool has a stop to ensure the heli-coil insert is not installed too deep into the hole and extending into the combustion chamber.

The spark plug holes are almost as often as the drain plug in the oil pan, we probably forty or more of those per year.

A least once they are heli-coiled they never strip out again...

Randy - RPM

[ribbert]

.....We went to remove the plugs and two pulled the threads. He went on to tell me he "always" uses anti-seize on the spark plugs.


......The spark plug holes are almost as often as the drain plug in the oil pan, we probably forty or more of those per year.

Randy - RPM

This is at odds with everything I was taught, everything I learned, everything I've practiced and everything I've experienced in a lifetime as a mechanic.

I actually read that NGK link and other than saying anti seize is not needed, the only warning it mentioned against using it is the risk of over tightening and I can't help but feel that may be the root of the problem, not the anti seize itself.

The greater number of sump plugs to spark plugs Randy mentions repairing (which is actually even higher number given the 4:1 ratio of spark plugs to sump plugs per engine) is telling. Sump plugs are metal to metal and refitted without anti seize and yet these get stripped at 4 times the rate of spark plugs. I suspect torqure is relative to the fear of them falling out and that leads owners to over tighten them "just to make sure"

Randy's observation in itself suggests anti seize if not the problem, but over tightening. One thing I have observed over the years is chronic over tightening of plugs by owners. Torque being determined by importance. Wheel nuts for example, can't have the wheels falling off, tighten the living daylights out of them, can't have the sump plug falls out, tighten........, can't have the plugs flying out, tighten.... with no concern for diameter, thread, depth or materials, just tighten the shit out everything.

Although the FJ plug has a long engagement, the fine, shallow pitch going into aluminium makes it easy to strip and unforgiving for ham fisted DIYer's.

There is also the issue of using the right product.

Closer to home, I recently removed the plugs from my own bike after 50,000km (at least) After a light 1/4 turn with a spanner, not even a "crack", I spun them out with my finger tips, the threads still have AS on them, wet.

Other than crediting Hooli with more sense than to over tighten, I can't offer any suggestion as to what might have happened with his misfortune, but it is not something I have ever experienced. Sure, I've pulled plenty of threads over the years, but they were all dry and corroded, that's what happens when you put steel bolts into aluminium.

It is interesting that NGK did acknowledge the need for a "release agent"

Just another opinion and some one else's' experience into the mix.

Noel