New fork springs? But that costs money!

[Mike Ramos]

Interesting thread, although rather unique.

Having just attended the most recent Rally, I had the pleasure to accompany Mr. Conlon & Mr. Thiel in almost 300 miles of riding (and many additional miles at other events) - I do not believe they have any problem with "frame flex"...  and their engines are not even close to stock HP output with the ability of passing anything in sight effortlessly & at will - I would also suggest, fudge12, a ride with the Wizard: it is recommended that Mrs. B accompany Frank so as to keep the speeds reasonable - however it may prove problematic if the "frame flex" you mention is not apparent thus hampering your conclusion.  Any three of those riders and their motorcycles, as with with Brutus (from down South), Fred and Giant Killer from the central regions, all of whom I have had the pleasure of riding with over these last several years, certainly excels your modest FJ expectations, not to mention your interesting "conclusions".

Add into the equation motorcyclists such as Mr. French, Olsen, Zari, the Captain, Firehawk (and others) and FJ acquits itself in a most competent manner.

As far as the cost of suspension componets vs. the cost of an FJ - it is my experience that with the a modest investment the FJ competes with almost any other motorcycle, regardless if it is cross country sojourns or spirited back country riding.  All the money not spent on a more "modern" motorcycle contributes to the expense of many a mile of riding pleasure.

Ride safe.

 

[fudge12]

i refer again to my signature; The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK. If it's your pleasure to close the gap between them then I applaud your efforts. That's not where my enjoyment is. It surprises me how many replies seem to be implying that my version of enjoying the FJ is wrong, or that because some people do it differently they're enjoying it more or more correctly. Especially since this thread is about improving the suspension?  Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Now can we get back to talking about fork springs on the cheap?

[4everFJ]

The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK.

I must say that I have to agree with this.

I love my FJ, but having ridden many of my friends modern bikes, there is really no comparison when it comes to handling, speed, agility and braking. I have upgraded suspension, brakes, tires, etc.. on my FJ, but it still feels old compared to modern bikes, and as fudge12 says: That's OK 

[Mike Ramos]

i refer again to my signature; The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK. If it's your pleasure to close the gap between them then I applaud your efforts. That's not where my enjoyment is. It surprises me how many replies seem to be implying that my version of enjoying the FJ is wrong, or that because some people do it differently they're enjoying it more or more correctly. Especially since this thread is about improving the suspension?  Thanks for the warm welcome guys. Now can we get back to talking about fork springs on the cheap?

Other than complimenting others in the FJ community, nothing personal intended nor do I read the implication where your "...version of enjoying the FJ is wrong" - neither is the claim made by anyone that the FJ is as refined as a modern motorcycle.

I simply addressed a subject that was raised by you - power and performance & the inconsequence of "frame flex" in the context that it seems not to hamper the faster FJ's.

Concerning the cost of upgrades, those that I have made suit me and how I ride quite well - and my statement that the money saved of the upgrades vs a new motorcycle (and the attendant maintenance and insurance costs) is money spent on riding expenses remains valid.   

My observation is that in today's real world the FJ remains competitive, that's all that I have said.

If I may suggest, attend a Rally and observe for yourself.

[fudge12]

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13015.0

I wouldn't presume to speak for others, but it seems that the inestimable Mr. Conlon, and a few others besides, have had issues with frame flex.  Bolts breaking, frame cracking.  Whether it "hampers" the faster FJ's or my conclusions, it's a fact that the frame is flexy compared to modern bikes.  I may attend a rally if one comes up while I still have it, but I doubt that it'd convince me that doubling the cost of the bike in improvements is a better value to me than swapping it out for another on my list of bikes to own.  Read my introduction post, if you haven't.  It'll explain a lot.

[ribbert]

The best you've ridden is the best you know. I love the FJ, but I can accept the reality that it is not, and cannot be made into, a modern bike. And that's OK.

but it still feels old compared to modern bikes, and as fudge12 says: That's OK 

....and therein lies its charm!

I have a current model Toyota VX Prado (Lexus something or other in the US) and a 20 year old V8 Land Rover Discovery (mint). The Prado is fantastic, bristling with technology, amazing off road capable, economical, comfortable etc. If both are parked in the drive, available, accessable and I have both sets of keys on me, I will take the Discovery every time (unless going on a trip). I just love driving it. The Prado does everything many times better than the Discovery, but has no character, it's just a machine without a soul. I don't pretend it is or even want it to be like the Prado because, I enjoy it for what it is, The fact the FJ is not a modern bike is why I like it.

I have a late model 1200cc bike sitting next to the FJ, adjustable on the fly suspension, stability control, traction control, ABS, EFI more grunt than the FJ, more comfortable and way better set up for trips.
A fortnight ago I headed off for a 2000km weekend with the promise of foul weather for much of the time. I considered taking the other bike if only for its spacious waterproof hard luggage. Standing naked in my motel room the first night with everything I had brought with me soaked and draped over heaters and the motel hair dryer going flat out, there was not a moment I regretted my choice in taking the FJ. It just wouldn't have been the same on the other bike.

I have spent a lot of money upgrading the FJ and it's way better to ride as a result but I don't pretend nor expect it to be a modern bike, just as the modern bike could never be an FJ!

Everyone enjoys their bikes for different reasons, from garage queen to bush basher and the FJ does it all, how cool's that.

Noel / IMO

[Alf]

I've ridden a lot of modern machinery, and I continue doing it

Part of them have worst production quality, specially in suspensions, swing arms, bearings...

Others have electronics that I don´t like, thanks. I know how to ride a bike without ABS, traction control or Wi-Fi (are we speaking of bikes or about video game consoles?). Is that trickery really needed? (well, yes because a modern R engine would be undriveable)

Most of them have ergonomics designed for Cirque du Soleil artists. I'm human

You need special computer assisted technology to simply check the bike. I do everything in my FJ

All of them could be break in the middle of Croatia, Portugal, France or Mainland Spain simply due to hot in summer and a deficiency head gasket, or an electronic failure (BMW?) ...4.000 kms away from my home in Tenerife, and with an Ocean in the middle

I know my FJ is not the faster, the most comfortable, have the better handling or is the most agile bike in the world. But do everything, from city traffic to 10.000 kms. travels in summer without hesitation, alone or with a lot of luggage, including closed track incursions and play with people in modern tackle

And everything in the (near) most reliable bike on the world and dead easy to maintain on the road

YES. MY FJ IS THE BEST BIKE IN THE WORLD

[fudge12]

So is my Versys!  
Actually, I should clarify.  I love the ability to work on the FJ.  I love the lack of need to work on my Versys.  I love the smoothness of the carbs on the FJ, I love the ability to hook my laptop to the versys PowerCommander and change it's fuelling without getting my hands dirty.  I love both bikes for different reasons.  That said, I've kept the Versys longer than any other bike I've had, because it's as close to the perfect bike for me as I've found.
And Ribbert, I understand totally.  I have a nice modern SUV, that has good handling, suspension, brakes, monster stereo, good mileage, the whole nine yards.  I also have a 3/4 ton, 8.1l Yukon which is none of those things.  The yukon is a monster, and I love it.  Actually I took the boy out yesterday to see if he'd explode or crash on the Versys or the FJ, and he said the FJ reminded him of the Yukon!  He also said that he didn't notice any of the bumps in the road on the Versys but felt them on the FJ, and that the Versys turns if you think about it while the FJ takes a very heavy push on the bar.  From the mouths of babes..

[ribbert]

Others have electronics that I don´t like, thanks. I know how to ride a bike without ABS, traction control or Wi-Fi (are we speaking of bikes or about video game consoles?). Is that trickery really needed? (well, yes because a modern R engine would be undriveable)

All of them could be break in the middle of Croatia, Portugal, France or Mainland Spain simply due to hot in summer and a deficiency head gasket, or an electronic failure (BMW?) ...4.000 kms away from my home in Tenerife, and with an Ocean in the middle

Alf, taking nothing away from the FJ (I love mine and would never sell it)  but all that modern trickery is fantastic and as for reliability, well, they are just that, reliable.

As an old school mechanic I used to the lament the passing of all the skills I learnt and rarely see these days. The skill has 100% gone out of mechanics and they have become nothing more than parts replacers. Diagnostic skill a forgotten, or these days, never learnt art. It's one of the reasons I work on old (pre-war) cars, I enjoy using that knowledge and experience and there's little call for it elsewhere.

Then it occurred to me that the skills have disappeared because there is no demand for them. Modern motor vehicles are basically sealed for life units that will travel hundreds of thousands of miles without a major glitch.
The odd reliability issue is usually a design flaw that didn't come to light until put into production, not a reliability issue per se.

For me the FJ is the best bike in world - for what I want.  Any comparison with a modern bike is apples and oranges. If it rode like a modern bike I'd just have to go and find something else that rode like an FJ because that's what I like, it's a great mix of classic and modern.

IMO

[Alf]

Then it occurred to me that the skills have disappeared because there is no demand for them. Modern motor vehicles are basically sealed for life units that will travel hundreds of thousands of miles without a major glitch.

I don't agree with you, sorry. Simply the motorbikes are now a consumer society article and Makers don't produce to last, only to sell more and more, with a programmed obsolescence due to the dictatorship of marketing tendencies.
It is like an old Westinghouse fridge that my grandmother owned for 50 years. Now the fridges don't last more than 5 years

Take a closer look at a modern machinery: everything is bakelite, screws are s**t, the painting flake in 2 years or decolorate, in many cases there are not dogbones at the suspension, the swingarms are of very poor quality....
Speaking with a friend of mine that works painting and repairing motorbikes, he says that today 50% of the crashes imply the total destruction of the bike. 20 years ago this did not happen

[Pat Conlon]

Bang for the buck, our FJ's are a bargain. Yes, they have their warts. Yes, we improve them as we wish or as we can afford, it's fun to do.

Yes, it's nice for an owner to be able to work on them (if they wish) Yes, dealers are expensive.

No, FJ's are not the best bike on the planet.

Although.....When it comes time for new rings in your FJ engine, you will be glad you don't have Nikasil plated cylinder bores.

[fudge12]

Bang for the buck, our FJ's are a bargain.

Sing it brother!  A dollar a CC, plus a couple hundred for tires, carb rebuild kits, etc. and some quality time out in the barn with some music and a beer for a bike I've wanted for 30 years?  You can't get that kind of bargain many places.

[racerrad8]

...I realize that no matter what you do to the suspension, the frame is still flexy.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=13015.0

I wouldn't presume to speak for others, but it seems that the inestimable Mr. Conlon, and a few others besides, have had issues with frame flex.  Bolts breaking, frame cracking.

So, I am not sure about cracked frames. I am only aware of a couple that I can recall. One was a torn cross member at the rear upper shock mount due to the twisting motion of the mount, not a crack. The crack was due to a failed weld, which was a oddity not a common documented issue.

No, I will say that all of the bikes I have worked on with sheared off lower bolt(s) were most likely a result of the bolts being loose. Not just the lower bolts being loose but the upper bolts as well. When I pull frame rails it is common for the bolts to be loose and there be signs of friction rust present. I always replace the lower bolts with grade 10.9 external hex washer head bolts to ensure they are properly torqued and the upper bolts are also check and replaced as required. Once they are replaced away from the factory allen head bolts that problem has been eliminated. I am not sure if Yamaha got them tight enough originally.

Now, one more thing that I brought to the table in bringing current suspension technology to the FJ, was the reduction of spring rate. With the RPM fork valves and rear shock, we are running spring rates just slightly stiffer than the stock rates. When using other after market shocks and fork valves the spring rate sometimes exceed 1300 lbs in the rear and it is not uncommon to run 1.0kg or greater fork springs.

So, the newer technologies have allowed lighter spring rates and reduce frame flex and improve the quality of ride & performance.

Randy - RPM

[fj1289]

I'm thinking if you are feeling a lot of flex in the FJ frame you missed your calling - you have the God given raw abilities suitable for Moto GP or as a test rider for tire development. 

Most complaints about flex concern the stock forks for people who aggressively countersteer the bike from one side to another, or from the swingarm from people who have substantially increased the horsepower (200 +). 

[fudge12]

I never said I could feel the flex that I'm aware of, but I'll reread my posts to be sure. I just pointed out that bolting on better, stiffer suspension would still be on that flexy frame. Way back when USD forks were new, dirtbike manufacturers started bolting them on. Turned out that the massively stiffer forks started causing frame breaks at the neck because the bike wasn't designed for them.  Sometimes an improvement in one area finds a different weak point. I put a tuner and a couple other goodies on my Yukon. Less than a year later it ate the transfer case.  Chasing weak points.
Randy, what do you believe caused the bolts to loosen?  Not trying to be a smart as, I really want to know your opinion.  I would theorize that the bolts were undersized and didn't have enough clamping pressure, causing movement under heavy load; frame flex. Perhaps if it had locating dowels the smaller bolts would have been able to separate the load, bolts in tension and dowels in shear.
You do have a good point about spring rate though.