Not sure which bike should get the Blue dot calipers....

[great white]

I asked the same question on my Venture forum and in the interest of trying to balance the answers, I'm going to ask the same question on the FJ forum.



Ok, so here's the situ:

Ive got a set of the R6 blue dot brake calipers.

I was planning on putting them on my 83 venture (have a set of 86 forks to put on as the 83 forks don't have the right spacing for the R6 calipers, 86 does) this winter and getting rid of that stupid front/rear brake link thing. Those linked brakes have got to go. It frigs up my riding style almost every day, bordering on damned near dangerous for me. I like to trail rear brake in a lot of situ's and linked brakes brings one front caliper into play with the rear brake.
Damned near washed out the front end a couple times on loose surfaces.  

But, I'm also finding myself riding the FJ more and more lately as I get it more and more reliable.

So now I'm thinking of putting the blue dots on the FJ.

That would free me up to use the FJ calipers on the Venture. I have an appropriately sized Master to swap on to the 83 for the FJ calipers (1986 Venture master).

This seems like it would give me the best brakes on the FJ (which I run harder than the Venture) and good enuff brakes on the Venture.

The Venture is my heavy bomber, the FJ is like the p-38. Don't quite have a Mustang in teh stable yet......

The FJ calipers would still be a step up from the 83 single pots and even be appropriate for a de-linked braking system and I wouldn't end up with those different sized rh/lh caliper pots that the linked Venture 4 pot calipers had.

Simple answer would seem to be just buy another set of Blue dots, but I just don't have the cash for it with swapping the FJ over to radial tires and needing new rims for them. What I have on hand right now is all I've got to work with.

I'm not totally sold on using R6 calipers on the FJ, but it seems to make the most sense for what I've got to work with.

One last factor to consider is that this winter the Venture is getting a VMAx top end, VMax final drive, a 2002 RSV transmission and a programmable ignition box that has VBoost servo control (Ignitech). Basically, it's going to have a VMax heart minus the VBoost (may come later down the road). Bone stock, the Venture was rated at 98 BHP. I'm hoping to see somewhere around 130 BHP and 100-110 RWHP.

Thoughts?

[FJmonkey]

Put the better brakes on the one you ride the most. Stopping ability is more important than going ability...

[Steve_in_Florida]

You're in the middle of the FJ forum, so my response is rather FJ-centric. Put the blue dots on the FJ. Love them.

Get blue dots for the other bike later. Use the FJ calipers on it if you must. Check your work closely and use quality brake pads. Bleed them brakes and be off!

Steve

[Mark Olson]

the FJ of course . 

[Pat Conlon]

I disagree with the others.... Do the worst brakes first.

I would put the blue spots on the Venture first. It's a heavier bike and will benefit from the upgrade more than your '89 FJ. The '89-93 FJ's oem brakes (4 piston) are not that bad, the oem brakes on the big Venture are much worse. If you had the early '84-'87 FJ with the dual piston calipers I would tell you to do those first, but again, IMHO the later FJ 4 piston calipers are not that bad.

I absolutely agree with you as to lose that linked braking system on the Venture.

The R-1/6 blue spots work the best with a 14mm master cylinder. Yes, they will be ok (just ok) with the oem 5/8" master, but for the best lever feel for modulation at threshold, the smaller 14mm master is best.

I have a friend who transplanted a Vmax engine into his Venture....the howl of that Vmax engine at WFO gives me goose bumps.....an absolutely bitchen engine. Jeff's bike was a sleeper. Fucking bike boogied.
.......and the howl when those secondaries opened.....  

Cheers.

[great white]

I disagree with the others.... Do the worst brakes first.

I would put the blue spots on the Venture first. It's a heavier bike and will benefit from the upgrade more than your '89 FJ. The '89-93 FJ's oem brakes (4 piston) are not that bad, the oem brakes on the big Venture are much worse. If you had the early '84-'87 FJ with the dual piston calipers I would tell you to do those first, but again, IMHO the later FJ 4 piston calipers are not that bad.

I absolutely agree with you as to lose that linked braking system on the Venture.

The R-1/6 blue spots work the best with a 14mm master cylinder. Yes, they will be ok (just ok) with the oem 5/8" master, but for the best lever feel for modulation at threshold, the smaller 14mm master is best.

I have a friend who transplanted a Vmax engine into his Venture....the howl of that Vmax engine at WFO gives me goose bumps.....an absolutely bitchen engine. Jeff's bike was a sleeper. Fucking bike boogied.
.......and the howl when those secondaries opened.....  

Cheers.

Seems logical.

I've yet to have the FJ brakes fade and they've not given me a  scary moment...

[fjfool]

i have a pair of blue dots i could send you for shipping- then you could do both

[fj1289]

 

Not a proper MA (Modifiers Annonymous) member to be heard from yet!

The answer is obvious - put the blue dots on the FJ and the FJ four pots on the VentureMax -- that way you get to modify both bikes!

Seriously though - I would do that to have the best FEEL and control for the bike you ride the hardest.  There are many on the list that would argue the 4 pot FJ brakes are just as powerful as the blue dots.  One of the most cited improvements after installing blue dots is the improved feel.  So you'd still be getting improved braking power on the VentureMax project -- and be getting rid of the linked brakes.  And can always add blue dots later if you want.

[great white]

i have a pair of blue dots i could send you for shipping- then you could do both

That, kind sir, would be awesome!

Shall I PM to exchange addresses and PayPal info?

[Arnie]

If you get that other pair of blue dots,  the question is moot.

If not, then Pat is right IMO, put the blue dots on the Venture.

[ribbert]

If you fit EBC HH pads to the standard 4 pot calipers, which ever bike you fit them to, you will have a huge improvement and might find it's enough.

A lot cheaper than another set of blue dots.

Noel

[CutterBill]

Ok, I have to ask...  What is so special about blue dot calipers? 

Calipers are nothing more than clamps.  You squeeze the brake lever, the motion is transformed into pressure, and the pressure is transformed back into movement, pushing the pistons, and therefore the pads, against the rotors.  That's it.  Now if you are changing the surface area of the pistons, and getting more clamping force at the calipers for the same force at the lever, sure that would improve braking.  But there is no free lunch... you will also increase the amount of movement at the brake lever.  That may or may not be acceptable to you.

Or if the new calipers use bigger pads, then we are getting into coefficient of friction, heat rejection and a bunch of other physics stuff.  Bigger or smaller pads would definitely change how the brakes work.

Personally, having taken apart several FJ brake systems, I'm guessing that the reason most people think the blue dots are so magical is because they don't realize how badly gummed up their old calipers are.  On the 92 FJ12 I just bought, the front calipers were in terrible shape, pistons rusted to the bore and seals extruding out of the gap.  It's a wonder they worked at all.  And the rear caliper was useless... frozen solid into an immovable lump.  So yes, blue dots would be a great improvement.  Hell, any caliper (that worked) would be an improvement.

So someone please, explain to this dumb engineer... why are blue dots so great?

[FJ1100mjk]

Ok, I have to ask...  What is so special about blue dot calipers? 

Personally, having taken apart several FJ brake systems, I'm guessing that the reason most people think the blue dots are so magical is because they don't realize how badly gummed up their old calipers are. 

I don't have blue dots , gold dots, polka dots, or whatever calipers on any of my FJs, but I do agree with your observations regarding the performance of the OEM calipers when they are properly serviced and stuffed with EBC HH pads, which is what I've done myself on three FJs. And I have seen the crappy condition of their components (top to bottom) when they were disassembled.

Still though, there has to be a noticeable performance increase between the designs, given that the OEM FJ calipers are 30 or so years old.

I guess it's what one seeks, and the money and time they wish to invest in their personal quest for the increase in performance. How much performance is gained, can and is debateable at times here. Me, I'm satisfied with the performance of the properly functioning OEM braking systems on my FJs, they suit the level of riding that I do, and will do so for the foreseeable future.

[great white]

Ok, I have to ask...  What is so special about blue dot calipers? 

Calipers are nothing more than clamps.  You squeeze the brake lever, the motion is transformed into pressure, and the pressure is transformed back into movement, pushing the pistons, and therefore the pads, against the rotors.  That's it.  Now if you are changing the surface area of the pistons, and getting more clamping force at the calipers for the same force at the lever, sure that would improve braking.  But there is no free lunch... you will also increase the amount of movement at the brake lever.  That may or may not be acceptable to you.

Or if the new calipers use bigger pads, then we are getting into coefficient of friction, heat rejection and a bunch of other physics stuff.  Bigger or smaller pads would definitely change how the brakes work.

Personally, having taken apart several FJ brake systems, I'm guessing that the reason most people think the blue dots are so magical is because they don't realize how badly gummed up their old calipers are.  On the 92 FJ12 I just bought, the front calipers were in terrible shape, pistons rusted to the bore and seals extruding out of the gap.  It's a wonder they worked at all.  And the rear caliper was useless... frozen solid into an immovable lump.  So yes, blue dots would be a great improvement.  Hell, any caliper (that worked) would be an improvement.

So someone please, explain to this dumb engineer... why are blue dots so great?

Caliper bodies are more rigid as they are one piece castings. The "blue dots" are where they did the bores.

The FJ calipers are two halves bolted together.

The one piece calipers are more resistant to "flex" at the extremes of heat and braking forces.

Now, in daily riding? Little to no difference. You're up at track speeds and demands when this stuff comes in to play.

I was asking in reference to swapping out my 83 Venture calipers, which are 2 pot calipers and front to rear linked.

Put the blue dots on the FJ and the FJ calipers on the Venture or just put the blue dots on the Venture?

I lean towards option 1. FJ gets the "trendy" upgrade and the Venture gets competent FJ brakes......

[ribbert]

Ok, I have to ask...  What is so special about blue dot calipers?................ 

.....................So someone please, explain to this dumb engineer... why are blue dots so great?

To a dumb engineer from a dumb motor mechanic.

Having tried every combination of M/C, brake line and pads on both types of calipers, my personal opinion, and to answer your question, is because they look cool.

Piston size and pad area are the same which just leaves the split caliper difference.
Standard calipers in good order with EBC HH pads will give you easy two finger lock up. While there may technically be some deflection of the caliper halves if the lever is squeezed hard enough, I don't believe the amount of force at maximum braking is significant enough to be noticeable.
Squeezing the life out of the lever with both hands until you go red in the face is not replicating riding conditions. The most force that will ever be applied is lock up and that's not much.

I issued the challenge once for anyone who had done an "all things being equal" comparison, one component at a time and every combination and no one replied. Most folks seem to "upgrade" with a combination of other components. The EBC HH pads in my opinion make one of the biggest differences.

Many of the members here who tout the wonders of the blue dots, by their own admission, do not use their brakes aggressively.

Bill, you are wandering into dangerous territory here by even asking the question  , I sit out on a limb all by myself on this issue  and it has proven to be a most unpopular topic to raise.
I no longer bother commenting on the subject, but seeing as how you asked the specific question........

But hey, that's all just my opinion.

Noel - Braking dissident.