Not sure how ya can do it?

[PaulG]

In Ontario there have been helmet laws since the early 70's, so it's a non-issue here. After almost 30 yrs of riding, I've never left the driveway without my helmet. Why? I've been pitched over the bars at 70 mph, hit by a car, fallen due to sand, black ice, wet manhole covers, had a garbage truck make a left turn on top of me, transport truck tires explode in front of me...and those are the ones I remember.

Ever mash a pumpkin with a baseball bat (or a cricket bat) when you were a kid? (I grew up in the country, so we had to amuse ourselves somehow). 

About two months ago, my buddy was riding into work when the skid plate from a Ford F-150 4x4 that he was behind fell off. It sailed like a frisbee right through his windscreen - he ducked just in time for it to glance off his helmet - and managed not to crash at highway speed. Without a helmet his head probably would have been severed above the eyebrows, with his brains spilling out like a pint of Guinness poured too fast.

Needless to say, when it happens - you'll never know it if you're not wearing one. Don't want to be all preachy, but a little sweat never hurt anyone. 

[Pat Conlon]

You may not know, but.... society will know, when they pay your long term medical care, as you lay in a vegetative state for...years.

[Burns]

The brain has a consistency of firm jello and like anything with mass, its motion will continue until acted upon by some outside force. If your skull and contents are traveling at, say, 60 mph and the skull comes to an abrupt stop (e.g. contact with a parked Buick) the brain slams against the inside of your skull and the "jello" gets scrambled. No helmet can overcome these simple physics.

There are certainly many injuries which can be prevented or minimized by wearing a helmet, but by no means all, and above a certain deceleration serious closed-head injury is not in that class of events.

The bottom line is that most of the "vegtabalizing" motorcycle related head injuries  cannot be prevented by a helmet.

My two points are (1) do not have a false sense of security inside your high-dollar helmet and (2) the "burden to society" argument's logical conclusion would be to avoid motorcycles completely; the difference in debilitating head injury rates with/without a helmet are totally swallowed by the differences in injury rates generally for ride/don't ride.

Since we here are motorcyclists we have already opted out of (2) and splitting hairs* over  helmet use is rather spurious.


Paralysis from cervical injury associated with the increased "above the shoulders" mass added by a helmet bolsters this conclusion.

As I said previously I generally opt of head/hand/foot-ankle protection, but not always.

* "split lanes not hairs"

[Pat Conlon]

The bottom line is that most of the "vegtabalizing" motorcycle related head injuries  cannot be prevented by a helmet.

Really? Is that just your opinion or do you have facts to back up your "bottom line"? Helmets save more lives than they take.

....the "burden to society" argument's logical conclusion would be to avoid motorcycles completely; the difference in debilitating head injury rates with/without a helmet are totally swallowed by the differences in injury rates generally for ride/don't ride.

Can society flat out prohibit motorcycles? They technically could, but the horse has left the barn on that issue.

I think that it's a safe assumption that helmets reduce head injuries.

Riding a motorcycle is a privilege (not a freedom) granted by society...same with driving a car.

I am against all laws that mandate a helmet, there should be a option...Those who do choose to not wear a helmet...they should be required a minimum level of long term medical insurance coverage. It's their option to choose. After all you shouldn't be allowed to ride your motorcycle without a minimum level of liability insurance, correct?

The same rule should apply to helmet-less riders...I feel that it's unfair for taxpayers to foot the bill for a rider's long term disability due in part to their poor choice..

Dying is easy, it's those that live on the dole I resent.

[Burns]

The most quoted source is DOT HS 811 208 (2009) which is on-line at
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811208.pdf

That study showed that 6.6 of unhelmeted riders involved in crashes either died or were treated at hospitals compared to 5.1 percent of helmeted riders. 
A difference of 1.5%.
It also showed a 2.4% higher rate of head injuries for unhelmeted riders.

It did not have a "vegtabilizing injury" category.

Interestingly, it showed HIGHER rates of injury for helmeted riders in 5 of the 8 types of injury reported (Thorax, Abdomen, Spine, Upper extremities, and lower extremities). And while neck injuries are fairly rare, helmeted riders suffered close to twice as many as unhelmeted riders.

Findings of other studies comparing death rates of helmeted vs unhelmeted riders are ambiguous. Some show fairly low differences and others report no statistically significant differences at all.  The before and after numbers for the repeal of the Penna helmet law is striking though, showing marked increases in deaths there.

I'm sorry that I did not make my "social utility" rejoinder clearer. I did not intend to suggest any governmental action.  My point is that the decision to ride entails acceptance of certain risks that are cumulatively orders of magnitude more significant than the choice of wearing a helmet, in terms of burden to society.

The physics of closed-head injury are more than anecdotal for me.  I did a face-plant in the Mojave desert in 1986 and the YZ490 I was on was like a hammer driving a nail.
I was the nail.

I was "suited up" pretty well and had a full-face helmet on but was whacked into a coma, spent 2 weeks in the hospital and lost my ability to speak for 3 months.
I never got back everything I lost that day.

I still enjoy a naked noggin ride every once in a while and don't feel that the facts justify being penalized for that indulgance.

[PaulG]

Phew! Seemed to be getting a little warm for a while. 

I was almost finished writing another tome on this thread when this POS IPad froze on me and wiped it out. Trying to remember all that profundity and rewrite it will be a task but here goes...

I can see how having such a traumatic event happen to you can shape your perception.  Those few events I listed in my life shaped my perception in a similar way.  That 70 mph shunt in 1987 was two years into my riding experience.  The cop measured my flight at over 100 ft from where the bike impacted to where I stopped tumbling.  The doctor told me I suffered a "hyper extension and flexion of your cervical spine", i.e.  I came within a c-hair of being a para or even a quadroplegic.  As I cartwheeled along, the multiple impacts scarred my helmet with a cross-hatch of gouges making it look like a grizzly used it to sharpen its claws. I kept that helmet for another 10 yrs as a reminder.  Luckily I escaped with just a broken hand and a lifetime of continuous back pain.

So yes, it is a lot about choice.  Despite your accident you still occasionally go without a helmet.  Because of mine, I'll never ride without one.  I've had several smaller incidents since that have reaffirmed my decision.  Even my journey from Toronto to Texas to Virginia and back, I never thought of riding without it in the states that allowed it.

I think the issue is how to make an informed choice.  Choosing not to wear one because the government suggests or says you should is not.  Informing yourself with statistics may or may not be useful.  You almost died in a dirt bike accident at (I am presuming, sorry), a relatively slower speed.  I almost walked away from a high speed crash that by rights, should have left me a cripple, or killed me.  I think we were both anomalies in those statistics on that day.

Anyhow, that's a lot less than what I originally wrote, and quite different.  This obviously strikes a chord in many of us that transcends geographic and cultural boundaries.  The ability to choose is not enough. Any animal can choose A or B.  Knowing why, and the consequences of that choice are just as important.

We're buttoned up for winter for the next five months now.  For the rest of you who don't have to deal with it, ride safe. 

[Burns]

It's pretty simple really. If you get hard enough you scramble your brains no matter what you are carrying them in. 
I usually wear gloves and boots when riding but sometimes don't.  I almost always wear a helmet, but sometimes don't.  It ain't a religious issue or an indicator of moral superiority.

[charleygofast]

How bout hitting two cows crossing the highway? 50mph,0ct 22nd 2008 5.45 am on my Suzuki dual/sport...pitch black outside and black cows! Broke my leg and hit my head on the pavement hard enough to shatter my faceshield, without a helmet I probably wouldnt be here today...I never ride without one,never have, my parents made me!  learning to ride in the dirt you will crash! And crash I did... alot!                                                                                                          Charley.

[PaulG]

It ain't a religious issue or an indicator of moral superiority.

Maybe I take it for granted here as it has been mandated for about 40yrs,  as it's second nature to me (us?).  I feel no moral superiority just because I wear a helmet, and I hope it didn't come off like that.  But I would agree (if we had optional helmet laws here) that my health and auto insurance costs should not reflect the choice of others who choose not to wear helmets.

Society may deem it necessary to protect ourselves from ourselves in many instances.  Seatbelts, gun control, impaired driving, traffic lights, even painted lines on the road.  Whether we agree with them or not, these things were regulated in most districts because it was proven we are incapable of controlling whatever impulses we have that would put our lives or others at risk.

It's a given in most modern societies that we are free to do almost anything we want within the confines of our property.  Outside those limits we have a social contract beyond what we perceive to be our personal choice.  Dying from not wearing a helmet is cheap, but being mentally or physically handicapped carries enormous costs - not just financially - but also on family and friends amongst others.

If I was riding with you and you decided not to wear your helmet, I wouldn't lecture you or question your decision.  I'd probably be envious if anything.  But those are the choices we make.

Just remember everyone we're just expressing our opinions.  Sometimes it's hard to guage the inflection of emotion in our written words as none of us have won any Nobel's for literature lately.  Happy riding everyone.

Anyhow I think I whipped that horse enough (don't tell PETA).   

How bout hitting two cows crossing the highway? ...pitch black outside and black cows! ......     Charley.

That sure as hell beats the black dog on a moonless night.  The cops never beleive that one.  Did you keep a piece of cow to prove it to them?   

[Burns]

I gotta give that pony one more kick.  I keep hearing about the cost to society of keeping the vegetables caused by failure to wear helmets  alive. But I have never seen a single FACT that supports the assertion of a correlation high enough to justify action.

Plenty of intuitive prognostications, but where is the evidence?  Before you nibble another petty freedom away - even if it is the freedom to make a bad choice - you need to justify the infringement.

At least you used to.

I will abandon any hypothesis that is not supported by the data so, make your case "veggie haters"  show me the numbers - but remember  anecdote is not evidence.

[wildfire]

I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want and that here are so many factors that need to be taken in to account regarding helmets. We all could tell stories of crashes and their outcome but all things been equal I dont think anyone would argue that wearing a helmet is better than not.

Now hitting a wall head on at 90mph compared to hitting the same wall at 30mph are two completely different scenarios.  At 90mph the sheer inertia could indeed damage the brain even with a helmet but at 30 miles an hour it would be highly unlikely. 30mph no helmet could result in death.
 

[Capn Ron]

47 seconds of Karl Pilkington on helmets and safety laws   

Ricky Gervais Guide To Society - He Had A Helmet, But His Head Come Off

[Burns]

Ok, I've got some data and the facts compel me to abandon my "societal cost" position.

"In 1991, prior to enacting its helmet law, California�s state medical insurance program paid $40 million for the treatment of motorcycle-related head injuries. That figure dropped to $24 million after enactment of a universal helmet law"

While the "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" counter-point would serve in a formal debate, I concede the point.  Motorcycle helmets DO save society money.

[giantkiller]

I think that everyone agrees that been forced by law to wear a helmet is not what we want and that here are so many factors that need to be taken in to account regarding helmets. We all could tell stories of crashes and their outcome but all things been equal I dont think anyone would argue that wearing a helmet is better than not.

Now hitting a wall head on at 90mph compared to hitting the same wall at 30mph are two completely different scenarios.  At 90mph the sheer inertia could indeed damage the brain even with a helmet but at 30 miles an hour it would be highly unlikely. 30mph no helmet could result in death.

They decided that I was going less than the 35mph speed limit. When I stopped abruptly, from a car pulling out in front of me. (Wearing helmet and full leather suit) I broke my nose, a tooth, impacted my vertebrae in my neck,and broke my skull in 2places, and had pretty major trauma to my brain. Lost a lot of my lifetime memories. And had to carry a mini recorder around, so I could play back the last few minutes so I could remember what just happened.  Without the helmet I would have been dead .
Like I said though. I still on rare occasions, go for a ride without. If it's your time it's your time. You can't stop people from burning their crotch with McDonald's coffee by making everyone else drink cold coffee.

[Burns]

very well said indeed.