Can you make a bike too good?

[ribbert]

Last week I put in a 700km day on a BMW 1200 boxer. As you would expect with any 1200cc two cylinder motor, you can feel it working, a low frequency vibration but not buzzy, you can just feel each cylinder firing.
It also has a gearbox that you can take great satisfaction is getting on top of.
Theoretically this should be unpleasant but it's not and I was curious as to why not, after all, it's all about smoothness and slickness isn't it?
By the end of the day I loved it, the feel, the noise, the torque and the now almost smooth gear changes. (they're sluggish to rev on the throttle blips on the down changes)

I also rode an ST1300, now you're talking, turbine smooth V4, near telepathic gearbox, great shaft drive, no transmission backlash, state of the art everything, plenty of power, blah, blah, blah.
The winner was a no brainer............ the clunky, thumping BMW won hands down.
Why? Because it felt like a motorbike. The Honda rode more like a two wheel car with the windscreen punched out, it didn't satisfy all the senses. It also had a bit of leggo look about it that I couldn't warm to.
Is it possible to over refine a bike to the point where you start to detract from the experience?
For example, I couldn't less about claimed better filtration or carb accessability with uni pods, I have them because I love the induction roar. I love the sound of the FJ motor at high revs and WOT. I like a bit of transmission whine. I like a gearbox that feels like a gearbox.
I love dropping it back a couple of gears, winding it around to the throttle stop and wringing it out to redline in a few gears. You do that on the Honda and it leaves you a bit flat, all it does is propel you forward, no other sensation.
You are doing the same thing on the Honda, it just feels different, not as satisfying, sort of like wearing a cond..... hang on, I'll think of another analogy...ah.. ah.....anyway, you get the idea.

So, is it just me, and rest of the world ultimately wants an electric bike or do we all like a bit rawness in our bikes?

Noel

[Dads_FJ]

What a great topic for tonight's digital-camp-fire!  And I agree wholeheartedly with your point... to the extent that although an HD isn't for me, I can see what owners like about the 'rawness' of them.

[magge52]

Yes, a very timely topic for me. I'm about a month and 1000 miles into FJ ownership and find a similar comparison between the FJ and my other bikes. The FJ is smooooth, sounds like a turbine spooling up-way cool and with the stock exhaust it's quiet. This being my first inline 4 it is definitely an adjustment riding with 4cyl between my legs and I'm enjoying the learning curve. The power and acceleration is intoxicating and very deceptive. It's so smooth and quiet before you know it you're way into illegal territory-handcuff and confiscate your licence on the spot territory! You don't get the same feedback as from the twins but man can you cover miles effortlessly and comfortably. The Duc is no slouch and can be in triple digits in a heartbeat but you feel more of what's going on, like ribbert said-a low frequency vibration and tons o' torque. Totally different power delivery. The Norton is similar to the Duc in a lot of respects but she's closing in on 40 so I ride it when I want to enjoy the scenery and the miles. The more I ride FJ the more I get the feel for it and once the brakes and suspension are sorted I suspect the miles will roll on and on and...

And it's quite satisfying to sit and admire the FJ in my garage. She's getting along fine with the other two, not much jealousy yet. I'm pretty good at sharing time with each one. Motorcycle polygamy is fun.

[TexasDave]

I grew up with motorcycles that were sometimes loud, always vibrated and required regular servicing. Part of the enjoyment of riding them was also working on them. I have a Harley that is all of this but it is not as much fun to ride as the FJ. Won't go as fast or handle as well but I still enjoy riding it. The future is going to be electric motorcycles. At my age I know I will never own one. With no clutch, no noise, no vibration the experience for me won't be the same. I grew up in an earlier era and enjoy older bikes.  Dave  

[Joe Sull]

To bad they didn't make a 1000 cc one lung bike. If the Suzuki Savage was bigger, I'd buy one. I think they call it a S40 boulevard now.
Shake rattle and roll.

[Dan Filetti]

Honda routinely gets criticized for being 'too antiseptic' or 'boring' despite having kill-yourself levels of HP, for many of the reasons you stated.

Dan

[The General]

No and Yes.

The FJ is Rawesome.

Retro is always a state of mind, which is the only reasoning that could explain why there`s still so many Harleys in America. BSA, Triumph, & Norton in Britain. Probly the best investment for your future family legacy is to invest in an original chinese  manufactured bike that wasn`t a copy of something else.

But there`s another factor imho. ....Was it only me or did you blokes also, in your very early teenage years, experience an anatomical physical experience on the school bus that was potentially very embarrassing. Did you notice that it was only when you sat at the back? (on the motor). Am I the only one that travelled a long distance to school?......None of those old buses idled like a Honda!

Lots of facts support this general theory of relativity, including the disproportionate number of Harley riders that are Wankers while BMW riders are poofters!

[simi_ed]

I just read a comparo test between the Ducati Monster, Kawai Z-1000, KTM SuperDuke and BMW S1000RR, Aprillia Tuono and Triumph Speed Triple. Anyway, the consensus was the BMW was the best, but it was basically boring.  Fastest, best brakes, comfort, cornering, etc.  The KTM & Duc both have more 'character', but they still like the BMW best, although it was very non-descript.  So I guess it was such better of a 'too good' bike that it beat out even 'character'.  So, I guess the answer is both 'Yes' and 'No' at the same time.

I found the story http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/features/in_thrust_we_trust/.

Interesting.  If this is too good, it sounds like my kind of problem (spoken by a FJ Semi-traitor).


Ed

[Pat Conlon]

Good discussion Noel and a very good point...

My answer is that.... it depends.

My analogy would be with cars...
I grew up with British roadsters, MGA's, Austin Healey Sprites and my last British car was a 1979 MGB.
These cars had character. These cars were both a pain in the ass and (when running) a absolute joy to drive.
Were they fast? No. Did they have good brakes? No...Even still, when the stars were in alignment the world was right. Would I take them across country? I have, but not recommended. A weekend get away? Sure, but bring your tools.

Old bikes or newer "raw" sport bikes are in this same category. Fun for day rides but no way I would take one across country. (exception: Honda SOHC 500/550/750)
Long distances: Old bikes for reliability reasons, new raw bikes for comfort reasons.

Enter the Miata..a relatively light weight roadster, but very reliable. The same "raw" character as the British roadsters? nope, not even close. Fast? Not really....Brakes? Yeppers good brakes. Handling? Yeppers...in spades. Cross the country in one? Sure. The Miata does everything the British roadsters did, but at a much higher level.....however, something was lost with the smooth Miata.

Would I ever go back to British roadsters? No

I think of it this way...bikes are like tools. Different tools for different jobs.

Cross the country? Yep, the comfortable Honda ST1300 is very hard to beat. The boring velvet hammer.
Many other good choices in this category.

Attack the twisty's? Any of the very competent sport bikes...raw, purposeful, sometimes unforgiving.
The FJ is not a tool for this job.

Going across the country to attack the twisties?
Many good choices, frankly (in my opinion) the FJ is not high on this list. Are some of these bikes boring? Yep.

Going across the country to attack the twisties on a 20-30 year old classic bike costing less than $3,000 and a bike that has lots of power and character?
She is a big comfortable girl with long legs, and she sure can dance.

^^^ Here mighty FJ reins supreme ^^^^

[stua1959]

When I got back into bikes after a break of a few years, I bought a Moto Guzzi LeMans IV on a whim. Not one of Guzzi's llfinest but it still gave me a hard on when I rode it and it wasnt from the vibration. Going up through the gears or on over run, peoples heads would snap around. If you got too close to the 40 mm Dellortos, it would suck your arm in and spit it out the Conti mufflers. That bike taught me about cornering technique and I felt like Agostini every time I rode it. In touring mode on a fast sweeping road it was divine. There is something strangely comforting about a twin purring away beneath you at those speeds.
Unfortunately, I needed an everday bike and the constant maintanence on the Guzzi became tiresome so it had to go. After a VFR honda which I found to be boring, I bought the FJ. It is the almost perfect balance between character and everyday useability

[Flynt]

Attack the twisty's? The FJ is not a tool for this job....

Uh oh...  them's fighting words!  The "fast five" will surely disagree...   

Frank

[fj johnnie]

 I recently test drove a 2014 FJR 1300 . Thought I would love it. It is an awesome, powerful, smooth and dynamic bike to be sure. It has those nice bags. Abs. Electronically adjustable suspension. Power windscreen. Etc. Etc.
After riding it I got back on my 90 FJ and was amazed at how much of a bike one can get for around $13,000 less. Buy a good solid low mileage FJ for $2500. Spend $2,000 doing the best upgrades available and do almost everything the FJR does. You will have an understanding of how the brakes work. The clutch slave. The rear shock. You will learn many things a cheque for $17,000 won't cover. For most of us that learning is priceless.
  I think the new Porsches are the same. Dynamically far superior to almost anything ten years old. The handling threshold is so high that mere mortals cannot wring them to their limits. Very capable, but not as exciting to drive.
   My feeling also is that people are getting more and more disconnected from their cars or bikes. Many people have no idea how anything works any more. Many guys riding bikes cant do even the simplest work on them.

[Pat Conlon]

Attack the twisty's? The FJ is not a tool for this job....

Uh oh...  them's fighting words!  The "fast five" will surely disagree...   

Frank

There's a reason I said twisty's and not sweepers.....

Question Frank: Are you faster on the twisty's with your Duc, or on the Wizzard?

Put the "Fast Five" on the right tool for the twisty's, and they will become "the Faster Five"

[Flynt]

Question Frank: Are you faster on the twisty's with your Duc, or on the Wizzard?

Touche, but the question is could I catch Frenchy on my Duc...  and the answer is no I suspect.  Andy on my Duc (that sounds weird) would be impressive indeed.

Frank

[andyoutandabout]

I dunno Frank, you're kinda unshakable on the Wizzard.