Would these fit my stock '87 and be an improvement ???

[ribbert]

George or Cap'n Ron, can you find out the total unsprung weight of the front end (someone must have one in bits) Forks, wheel, discs, calipers (applied), tyre (inflated to max pressure) mudguard etc.

Thanks

Noel

That's a fun question...I have two full sets of OEM wheels hanging around with tires and rotors mounted that would be easy to weigh out, but there would be variations in weight based on tire choice...I would certainly be splitting hairs over the weight of air pressure.  I have already given OEM caliper weights with brake pads (new or worn?)... I have spare front fender halves lying around (pretty insignificant in the grand scheme, I'm sure)...Then there's the unsprung part of the front forks?  How much of the spring do you consider "unsprung"?  How much of a brake line do you weigh figuring one end is attached to an unsprung part and the other end is attached to a sprung part?  What about the speedo cable?  Are you looking to get accurate numbers or just a ballpark estimate?

I'm certainly not going to change calipers for a weight savings alone...but if there IS a yet-to-be-clarified improvement in clamping force to be realized with the blue dots, a weight savings just goes into the "pros" side of the pros/cons list.

I guess I'm saying that I can weigh out some of these things easily...but being completely accurate with unsprung weight will be difficult, so I can't furnish the full, accurate answer.  Still want rough numbers?

Cap'n Ron. . .

Rough is fine, which I know in you case will be a very fine rough.

Noel

[Country Joe]

I have switched over to the blue dots and master cylinder from a 2005 FJR 1300. I took off the old brake system intact, the new system came intact as well. I weighed both systems with a digital scale and was shocked at how little less the new system weighed in comparison. Did I write down the numbers ? I may pull the new one off this weekend just to check..... Anyway, I am using the OEM rubber brake hoses and what appears to be OEM brake pads on the original FJ rotors. I feel that there was a significant ( not dramatic) improvement over the original brakes. Considering all that has really changed in my case was M/C diameter and piston diameters (and caliper construction), It just seems to me that the M/C to caliper area ratio is simply better matched to the human hand. I now never use more than 2 fingers to get all the stopping force that the Avon Storm will take. I commonly used 3 or 4 fingers on the lever before the change.

While we are discussing brakes, has anyone used the Venhill brake lines? The prices are very attractive, but the idea of brake hoses that you screw together is a little shakey in my mind. I know they are TUV approved and approved in the UK, so there had to be some testing to get those certifications. I'm just asking for any personal experiences.
Joe

[ribbert]

While we are discussing brakes, has anyone used the Venhill brake lines? The prices are very attractive, but the idea of brake hoses that you screw together is a little shakey in my mind. I know they are TUV approved and approved in the UK, so there had to be some testing to get those certifications. I'm just asking for any personal experiences.
Joe

Why? Your entire bike is held together with threads and it is a threaded connection that holds the banjo in and the calipers on and how they are joined on you car ...... That connection is no more likely to fail than any other.
Yes, they are very well priced and I had to change mine over (from Australia) and they did so without complaint and I only paid the return postage. The ones they recommend for for the FJ were miles to long.



Mine see a lot of dirt roads (corrugations and the like) and get a lot of flexing. These have done a lot of miles.
What ever you choose it is important to have adjustable banjos.



They also get a lot of hard use and repeated near full compression of the forks which is a lot of flexing. I have them clamped where the splitter was which is probably a bit tight and has them bending more than is ideal but there is no sign of fatigue.

Yep, I'd recommend them. The general feel when handling them is that of a quality product, good finish, good plating, good hardware. Nothing looks or feels cheap about them.

While people like using words such as Speigler, Galfer and Brembo when referring to their bikes, I don't really think premium brake lines are anything more than marketing hype.

I can feel it in by bones, someone will disagree with me!

Noel

[Country Joe]

Noel,
Thanks for the feedback on the Venhill lines.  I agree that having adjustability on the banjo fittings is a good thing. I have all the lengths measured out for the lines that I need to replace. I need to quit dragging my feet and pull the trigger on the order. I think I have everything for the GSXR rear wheel swap except for  the brake hose. It is way past time for this swap to be completed.

[FJscott]

Totally agree with you Noel. the ship I work on has dozens of Hydraulic hoses, factory hydraulics, deck equipment, cranes, steering system,propellar shaft brakes, membrane hoses on reverse osmosis watermaker. I make all the hoses in house with re-usable threaded hose fittings. I see numerous hose failures but never at the threaded connection. Almost all failures are due to chaffing on something else.

Scott

[hein]

Observations,theories,musings and maybe a few facts.

Facts. piston dia. monoblock. 30.2 and 27.mm
                        89-93 2 piece. 32.1 mm.
weight difference 130. gm. in favour of the monoblock per caliper

Observations. I got rid of my 86FJ in 98 and replaced it with a 93 at the same time. In both cases the brakes were in good condition and had stock pads and hoses and fresh fluid no sticking pistons. The 93 brakes were a definete improvement. Fast forward to 08. The abs system died and I decided to remove it and do some upgrades at the same time. Ditch the stock abs wheels new brake lines, pads etc. Rounded up a 17"600r rear wheel, Fzr front, 14mm. m/c etc. I already had some R1 calipers and had popped the pistons and replaced the seals plus had new pads ready. Did the wheel swap including new front rotors, Chinese Galfer knockoffs. The original calipers were gone through also with fresh pads, same brand and compound and were reinstalled along with the original 5/8 m/c. I made up some screw together braided lines and reinstalled a stock brake system with upgraded pads, braided lines, new rotors, calipers in perfect condtion and fresh dot4. The system was bled and the pads and rotors bedded in. Was there an improvement? Yes, not dramatic but a definite improvement. Next came the R1 calipers, rebuilt and same brand and compound pads. Was there another incremental improvement? No, I couldn't sense much difference. Next the 14mm. m/c. Big change, a bit more lever travel, much better modulation and less effort. I realize this has been gone over a multitude of times but I thought I'd offer it in the order I did it and show my observations. Now comes the speculation part. Since the original question by Jeff dealt with improving the braking performance on his 87 I wonder if the 14mm.m/c would improve the two piston system in terms of feel and modulation.

I bought another 93 FJ recently which still has stock brakes. I tried very hard squeezing as hard as I could but could not get any flex nor swelling of the calipers. Ed, I'm not saying you did not observe this but I could not duplicate this. Perhaps as Noel mentioned you had one or more sticking pistons and the movement you noticed was was the flexing at the mounting points cased by this reason. I've observed this on my gen.2 FZ1 when I had a sticking piston.Looking back I should have tried tried the 14mm. m/c with the original 2 piece calipers as a direct comparison to the monoblocks but I didn't so perhaps If I don't sell my extra FJ I might toss a 14mm. m/c at it and see what the results are like with the stock calipers.

Noel, your contention that a variable leverage m/c is a better way to go than the correct size unit is interesting, untill you price out one of these units. You still have to size out the m/c for the particular application and then fine tune it to your own taste. At the high end of the scale a very nice Brembo fully adjustable billet unit used by bucks up racers can set you back close to $3,000 ca.Reservoir,banjo bolt and washers not included. In theory a radial pump m/c does offer advantages. I'm sure guys like Marques, Pedrosa and Lorenzo are somewhat fussy when it comes down to braking components but for an average street rider the  answer is not as clearcut.

I should leave well enough alone on the subject of dot4 versus 5 but I can't help it. Back in 78 HD started using dot5, then in about 08 with the introduction of abs on their bikes they reverted back to dot4. This is an observation and I draw no conclusion from this.

Note to Pat, Unless I'm wrong I believe that both the 16 and 17 FJ wheels were 3" wide but your right the 16 is pig heavy.

No oil comments, Hein

[Capn Ron]

George or Cap'n Ron, can you find out the total unsprung weight of the front end (someone must have one in bits) Forks, wheel, discs, calipers (applied), tyre (inflated to max pressure) mudguard etc.

Thanks

Noel

I guess I'm saying that I can weigh out some of these things easily...but being completely accurate with unsprung weight will be difficult, so I can't furnish the full, accurate answer.  Still want rough numbers?

Cap'n Ron. . .

Rough is fine, which I know in you case will be a very fine rough.

Noel

Here you go...

Disclaimers:
* This is a 1992 FJ1200 ABS model
* I directly weighed everything except the lower fork tubes...I took a WAG (Wild Ass Guess) at 5 lbs each.
* I took the average weight of a new Metzeller ME880 tire and a new Sport Demon tire in the stock 120/70-17.
* I cut the spring weight in half as technically, only half is "unsprung".
* I did not include the RPM fork brace which is on my bike, but isn't OEM.
* I didn't include the reflectors or the speedometer cable.



File under "too much time on my hands"   

Cap'n Ron. . .

[Capn Ron]

While people like using words such as Speigler, Galfer and Brembo when referring to their bikes, I don't really think premium brake lines are anything more than marketing hype.

I can feel it in by bones, someone will disagree with me!

Noel

I completely agree.  I used Galfer lines because they're around 20 miles from my house.  There wasn't an ABS "kit" available from anyone, so I worked with them during my rebuild to duplicate all the lines required.  This took several trips back and forth to get things just right...When all was said and done, one of the lines leaked at the banjo fitting so back I went.  They knocked out a new one in a few minutes and all was good, but it drives home the point that if you have a bulk reel of SS brake line, a bin full of banjo fittings and a crimp press, any monkey could knock these things out! (No offense Mark)   

Cap'n Ron. . .

[movenon]

That's great information Ron 69.16lbs is a lot.  I wasn't much help in weighing things. I have a front wheel with a tire on it but no rotor and the wheel on the bike is a 87/88 FZR.

So the biggest gain in reducing the wieght would probably be evalution of a another front wheel and rotors.  Somewhere I seen the FZR wheel weight. I will do some digging.   Good facts for the camp fire Ron.
George

[Capn Ron]

SimiEd PM'd me with a good suggestion to test the flex of the calipers.  This did interrupt my busy schedule of sitting, but off I went to measure the flex.   

I wasn't sure what to expect or what I was hoping to find other than some accurate number.

The setup:



I attached the dial indicator base to the rotor just below the caliper.  I then aligned the dial indicator tip to the piece of flashing just below and between the two pots.  This was as far away from the clamping bolts as possible to try to realize the most movement.

I then zeroed out the dial to make readings easier:



I then squeezed (squoze?) the front brake lever as hard as I could and noted the deflection of the dial:



Good lord, I thought I was going to snap the brake lever and I was reading .005" of flex.  That's "five thousandths" of an inch.  I repeated this several times and adjusted the markers on the dial face.  I couldn't get the needle to swing any farther than what you see above.  If I'm being honest, the needle start point was a smidgeon off the "zero" and it never quite touched the fifth line making the delta more like .0045".

To put things in perspective, that's less than the thickness of this piece of paper:



To be fair, I would just have to assume the other side of the caliper flexes the same amount for a total of ten-thousandths of an inch.  I don't have a blue dot setup around to measure the flex of those and compare, but ten-thousandths seems like a scant amount of flex in the OEM setup.  Or am I way off here and that's a HUGE amount of flex for a caliper?   

Cap'n Ron. . .

[Capn Ron]

That's great information Ron 69.16lbs is a lot.  I wasn't much help in weighing things. I have a front wheel with a tire on it but no rotor and the wheel on the bike is a 87/88 FZR.

So the biggest gain in reducing the wieght would probably be evalution of a another front wheel and rotors.  Somewhere I seen the FZR wheel weight. I will do some digging.   Good facts for the camp fire Ron.
George

Hey George,

After reading your reply, I realized that I initially weighed the entire front wheel WITH tire and rotors at 29lbs.  Then I weighed loose tires and removed a rotor to weigh it, but forgot to subtract them from the wheel weight.  Here are the correct weights:



So...the wheel itself is just under 10lbs, but the rotating mass (wheel, tire and both rotors is 29 lbs).

Cap'n Ron. . .

[ribbert]

Here you go...



File under "too much time on my hands"   

Cap'n Ron. . .

That is fantastic, thanks Cap'n. But it gives rise to an even more perplexing question. How do go sailing (on your own yacht) get to ride all over the country AND have this much time? Time poor FJ'er needs to know.

It is interesting when you think of the speed and frequency that this weight (approx 1/3 of body weight) needs to be pushed back onto the road to maintain contact when travelling fast.

I believe MotoGP bikes lose up to 10% of their power down a main straight through the suspensions inability to keep the wheel planted.
There are certain roads and speeds where I have experienced this on the FJ, to the point of hearing and feeling it, but I suspect it has more to do with crappy suspension than 250hp/300kph.

Those fortuneate enough to live in the stratosphere of motorbike mods where money is no object and can afford composite wheels ( around $3000 a set) claim a transformation like no other to the bikes handling. Something I will never get the opportunity to have an opinion on.

Thanks again Cap'n, I will file that info into the data bank.

Noel

[ribbert]

SimiEd PM'd me with a good suggestion to test the flex of the calipers.  This did interrupt my busy schedule of sitting, but off I went to measure the flex.  

I wasn't sure what to expect or what I was hoping to find other than some accurate number.

Cap'n Ron. . .

Cap'n, the real figure is likely less. You should measure it with no more pressure than required to lock the wheel, a couple of fingers worth. In reality, even that would be an exaggerated figure because nearly all braking done with road use is at way less than max. Very hard road riding is probably only going to see 75% of that.
It also remains possible that all or some of that measurement is disc flex.

Noel

[simi_ed]

I am of the opinion this is a HUGE amount of flex. Even if you're getting 1/2 of the total, 0.005", that's' probably 2-3x the pad movement.  Consider how much clearance is there typically between a brake pad & rotor?  My guess is ... 0.001"  to 0.002" maximum.  We've all had to pump up the brakes after pad replacement, then the new pads will squeal because they're riding the rotor.  How about (extreme example, granted) the MotoGP guys that will blow a corner and run off the track after a headshake incident causes the pads to retract?  

I also disagree that this an extreme amount of pressure. Now, I haven't seen Ron in several years, but as I remember he did have little girly-man hands, so his claim of " squeeze as hard as he can" is a bit dubious!  (Ron, just kidding!)  I typically ride 2 up and use a lot of front brake and 0 rear brake.  Maybe that's why I noticed such a huge improvement.
Now, I'd measure the clearance between the pads & rotors, but my FJ is still doing the snowbird thing in Modesto, so I have no real point of reference.
(this is me doing my "no bike, I'm bored" shit-stirring   )

Ron. are you still free?  

[FJ_Hooligan]

I agree with Noel's statement about flex, but the rotor should be held steady by the opposed pistons.  I have noticed caliper flex after a rebuild of a stock rear caliper.  There was some excess fluid that I could see in the line where the two caliper halves join.  When pressing the rear pedal, I could see very slight movement in the fluid between the halves.  I'm sure it's not a big contributor in the performance difference.  I suspect most people want to see this increase more than they are really experiencing it.  They are also probably replacing worn out components with much fresher components.