Deal or no deal: Honda Blackbird

[Alf]

Noel, you´re right and I cpletelt agree with you  

But where do you leave the exciting & fun of arguing about?  

Take care, my friend

[ribbert]

After reading the visordown reviews of the 10 best sport/toures I could not believe the Suzuki GSXF650 was listed. Seriously?  Dave

My point exactly, that list reflects what that particular journo/tester deems to make a good sports / tourer. In my opinion, there is one basic thing ALL bikes touted as tourers should have - engine capacity.
Changing back 3 gears every time you want to overtake or come to hill, or cruising two up with a lot of gear into a stiff head wind at 13,000 rpm in 3rd is not my idea of a tourer.

Ask ten different magazines the same question and you'll get ten significantly different lists, some likely with all different bikes. Those lists are never the result of large scale polling, they are the opinion of the writer and anyone within shouting distance of his desk.

Noel

[ribbert]

Anyone want to throw up a list of what they think are the 10 best sports / touring bikes of all time, perhaps in order of preference. It doesn't require first hand experience, just what ever you reckon, but if you forget to include the FJ you will be expelled from the forum.

Noel

[Flynt]

Anyone want to throw up a list of what they think are the 10 best sports / touring bikes of all time...

1.  '91-93 FJ (especially the YZF750r/Thunderace/1349cc with flatsides Frankenstein that is Wizard...   )
2.  '89-90 FJ
3.  '84 FJ
4.  '85-87 FJ
5-10.  everything else...

Frank

[Alf]

To continue arguing I´m going to take a indirect approach

What is best sport touring, the CBR 1000 XX or an FJR 1300?

In touring mod there is no choice other than the FJR. Full stop

The controversial point is about the sport choice. Having riding both, I prefer the FJR for confidence, ergonomics, suspension... Only in straigh line (again) the Bird is faster

Here it is the indirect way of my argument

In 2003 5 tester of Spanish mag Motociclismo rode side to side a completely STD FJ 1100 (except for a rear shock, but with old Macadam tyres and STD brakes) with the new then (and lighter of the series) FJR 1300 in the Jarama circuit in Madrid. The differences were between 2-5 seconds FASTER on the 1100 than on the 1300. In a short circuit like this, it is a world of difference, when we are speaking about around 1´50" per lap. It is my difference between riding a modified rim & brakes FJ 1200 or a 2010 R6
The complete lap times were not published not to embarrashed Yamaha and discouraged potencial buyers of buying a 16.000 EUR bike compared to 2.500 EUR FJ, even the curves elapsed times were published, showing where it was the difference

Is it the FJ better sport bike that the FJR 1300?. A BIG yes. Is it the FJR 1300 vastly superior with passenger and cases?. Yep.

I would choose a FJR 1300 over a Bird to do a trackday?. A BIG YES again. The Bird is too cumbersome to think to go into a track (except maybe Nurburging)

[FJscott]

My List;

1-my 92 FJ
2-"14 ninja 1000
4-triumph tiger 1050
5-ducati multistrada
6- "14 fjr es
7- connie 14
8- triumph sprint ST
9- bandit 1200
10- Honda st-1300

Scott

[Alf]

My touring-sport list
1.-FJR 1300
2.-FJ 1992 ABS
3.-Bandit 1250
4.-Triumph Sprint
5.-Fazer 1000 2000-2003
6.-Kawa ZXR 1200 S
7.-Bandit 1200
8.-Honda CB 1300 S
9.-Kawa Z750F
10.- Fazer FZS 600 2000-2003

My sport-touring list
1.- FJ 1200 86-87 / FJ 1100
2.- FJ 1200 88-90
3.- Fazer 1000 2000-2003
4.- Triumph Sprint
5.- CBR 600 F 2000
6.- Fazer FZS 600 2000-2003
7.- Kawa Z750F
8.- Bandit 1250
9.- Bandit 1200
10.-Triumph XC 800

[andyb]

That is a silly and goofy argument.

My idea of sport touring is very different than yours.  My roads are different, my laws are different, my weather conditions are different.  So the lists are different, and there's an endless and unmitigatable argument waiting to happen.

My idea of sport touring is that I want something deadly reliable, first and foremost (can't go for a long ride if you don't trust the machine to get you home).  It then needs a decent riding position, a bit of weight forwards on my wrists and my heels definitely under my butt.  Legroom would be nice, but for posting up over big bumps or railway crossings, I want the ability to crouch slightly to retain control and stability.  Further down the list, I want a usable powerband; enough power to deal with traffic in top gear at whatever the local average speeds are, because it's no fun caning the crap out of it out of necessity (instead of for the joy of it, because you want to!).

I have little to no need for luggage space, though a steel tank is nice so that a magnetic tankbag works.  And then, there's the sport end of it.  It's got to wear the sort of rubber that is available in common, sticky sizes (120/70r17 and a 160/180/190 rear 17" piece.  It also needs a comfortable suspension and seat, preferrably one that is easily adjustable, so that I can go through rough highways all day, stay overnight, tighten things up in a few minutes, and play more aggressively when I've arrived someplace with more interesting roads.


Honestly to me, it's all about being what a car would be considered a Grand Tourer.  Something that you don't necessarily want to ride around the racetrack, but makes the drive to go see the races enjoyable, and can make the ride back that much more exciting after getting fired up watching a race for the day.

I want a bike that can drive the 2 hours from here to the sweeping, enjoyable twisty bits along the mississippi, and then enjoy them once I'm there, without being too fatigued to have fun. 

My ZX9 isn't half bad at sport touring, though the seat is in desperate need of having some stiffer foam and less sharp edges.  The FJ is brilliant at sport touring.  A ZX11 in theory could be great, but not for me... my arms just aren't long enough, even with a corbin seat and 3/4" worth of taller bars.  A VFR750 is great, just short in the engine department--if the twisties were tighter around here, I'd be plenty happy with one.


A good sport tourer should make the idea of going for a fun ride at 70% pace sound like a great idea.  No matter how far away that road is.

[rusjel]

A lot of those listed bikes I would see as tourers Andy, but like a lot of motorcycle related things, it's subjective, in the eye of the beholder and if you find something that works for you, just ride it and enjoy it!

For me a Sports tourer is something I can ride 1000ks on in relitive comfort and still be fun when the road gets twisty.

For what it's worth:

1. 01-02 'Bird
2. 1050 Sprint GT
3. 88 FJ 1200
4. ZX1400
5. 91- FJ1200
6. ZZR1200
7. Ducati ST3
8. Aprilla Futura
9. 1050 Sprint ST
10. 955 Sprint ST

But there's lots of bikes I haven't ridden that might have displaced some of these, like the K1200/1300s

I don't want to revisit the Bird vs FJ debate, I think everyone is familiar with my viewpoint now!

But just out of interest, what are the rake and trail figures for a 17" front wheel FJ1200? I couldn't find them in my Haynes manual.

Seat height FJ/XX 790/820 Wet weight 265/255 and I'm betting the that while the geometry on the XX will be quicker, there won't be much in it either. Interesting...

[Arnie]

From Cycle (I think) published test specs on an '89 FJ1200

Rake 27.5
Trail 112mm

[rusjel]

Specs for the Bird: 25°/99mm. Source: http://leanangle.info/bikes/Kawasaki/ZZR1100Info&Reviews/blackbird.htm

Which explains why, for most people except maybe Alf and Miguel, the 'Bird steers faster than the FJ. not a huge amount in it, but there it is.

Now is that better or worse? Doesn't matter. Which do you like? That's the important bit.

On to my other Favorite Sports Tourer, the Sprint GT

Well what do you know? Seat height 815, wet weight 265, steering is a bit steeper again 23.5 degrees /88mm, which lines up with my seat-of-pants ometer.

Neither the Honda or the Triumph have the FJs generous handlebar rise, which is why aftermarket items are so popular.

It all backs up what I already thought, that particularly for our goat track roads here in Oz, a bit of heft is actually a good thing and together with sorted suspension help a bike to roll over the bumps is a good distance package and while not as nimble as a sports bike, still pretty handy on the twisty roads.

It may be my imagination, but I can really feel every one of the extra 30-40kg an FJR1300, Concours or ST is packing, particularly in the tighter going.

It seems that for my particular set of prejudices about 250-260kegs wet, relatively sporty yet stable geometry, comfy ride position and somewhere north of 125 horses is my happy place when it comes to Sport Tourers.   

[JMR]

And where is it the touring side of the Hayabusa? try to acommodate a passenger... so an FJ is a BETTER sport bike than a Bird and a BETTER touring bike than a Hayabusa      

I have put 600 mile days on both the FJ and the Hayabusa (the busa having lower footpegs and a 1" bar riser). The problem with the FJ is getting stuck in some unforeseeable 5 mile traffic jam with no exits. It just gets way to hot. I like a liquid cooled bike as I don't have to worry about that or a similar scenario.
As an aside....a 58 year old friend of mine from Quebec rode down to Indy for the last MotoGP....on his RC-51. He did several 600 mile days....hard man.

[Alf]

Air cooled engines support hot temperatures better than water cooled bikes. In fact, in order to look for mechanical resistance the desert vehicles are powered by air cooled engines. The problem is not the overheating in a FJ engine in a jam. Obviously using semi or full- synthetic oil can be harmful in a traffic jam in a  FJ engine. Even myself I've felt the incremental mechanical noise and the increasingly hardened of the gear change with this oils in a jam with my FJ. This can be near completely avoided with a mineral 20-50 w oil

The main problem is the air evacuation and the way that you feel it. In a FJ the hot air scape vertically and literally toast the rider (more in post 1989 FJs with bigger fairings). But it doesn't mean the engine is overheating. The Hayabusa have more studied the hot air flow, but i.e. in a FJR 1300 from the first series the hot air fry the pilot, mainly your legs and feet, and GPZ 900s overheat even the rider can't feel the hot...

My worst experience has not been in my near 400.000 kms riding FJs. It was in a traffic jam in Sevilla with my FZR 1000 in summer, with complete leather suit, gloves, boots... I remember a public thermometer indicating 52ºC, and the hot air from the frenetic radiator fan trying to refrigerating the engine directly focused to grilling me.

And living in Tenerife or travelling in July or summer on mainland Spain I have a lot of "warm" experiences

[JMR]

Air cooled engines support hot temperatures better than water cooled bikes. In fact, in order to look for mechanical resistance the desert vehicles are powered by air cooled engines. The problem is not the overheating in a FJ engine in a jam. Obviously using semi or full- synthetic oil can be harmful in a traffic jam in a  FJ engine. Even myself I've felt the incremental mechanical noise and the increasingly hardened of the gear change with this oils in a jam with my FJ. This can be near completely avoided with a mineral 20-50 w oil

The main problem is the air evacuation and the way that you feel it. In a FJ the hot air scape vertically and literally toast the rider (more in post 1989 FJs with bigger fairings). But it doesn't mean the engine is overheating. The Hayabusa have more studied the hot air flow, but i.e. in a FJR 1300 from the first series the hot air fry the pilot, mainly your legs and feet, and GPZ 900s overheat even the rider can't feel the hot...

My worst experience has not been in my near 400.000 kms riding FJs. It was in a traffic jam in Sevilla with my FZR 1000 in summer, with complete leather suit, gloves, boots... I remember a public thermometer indicating 52ºC, and the hot air from the frenetic radiator fan trying to refrigerating the engine directly focused to grilling me.

And living in Tenerife or travelling in July or summer on mainland Spain I have a lot of "warm" experiences

When you see oil temps in the 320F range and have miles of traffic in front of you it doesn't matter what type of oil is in the crankcase. I'll take hot air blowing on me anytime. FJ's that have been super heated egg cylinders, the threads pull out of the cam saddles etc. FJ's run hot to begin with....I always wondered about their use in Legend cars. Take a hot running engine, enclose it and pin the throttle for 20 minutes. I think they became popular because all the KZ and GS engines were used for dragracing.

[ribbert]

Air cooled engines support hot temperatures better than water cooled bikes. In fact, in order to look for mechanical resistance the desert vehicles are powered by air cooled engines.

Alf, I think you will find many of those multi cylinder vehicles have greater separation between the cylinders, if not separate cylinders, and ALL have substantial ducted fan cooling. Unless you are talking something like a boxer engine with the entire cylinder exposed, like a stationary motor. Another reason is reliability and simplicity, very appealing when traversing remote areas. There are many components in a water cooled motor than can fail or be damaged. Loose your coolant, or the ability to circulate it, and your destination that day becomes anywhere you like, as long as it's somewhere in the next kilometre. Not a good thing out in the desert.

An in-line 4 such as the FJ cannot adequately cool the cylinders without air flow.

The problem is not the overheating in a FJ engine in a jam.

I generally hate people giving isolated exceptions to a general rule but I have had my bike so hot that the heat was not only uncomfortable on my legs, but unbearable. I have heard the engine noises increase, the clutch chattering when engaging and the fuel tank scarily hot. This has happened many times when caught in unusual circumstances.
No big deal.

But, back to the exception to the rule, I did cook my lovely, low mileage, never had a spanner on it motor. It's not hard, just leave it running long enough, in hot enough temperatures and without moving.
The cooling ducts to the centre cylinders are there for a reason.

Noel