new member in colorado

[FJ_Hooligan]

Did you not read my previous post???

Here's a story for you:
Over 30 years ago, I owned a '78 Yamaha XS 750 triple.  One day I was visiting my local Yamaha dealer and he asks me which oil filter I use.  I tell him I buy the cheap EMGO filters because the Yamaha filters are just too expensive.  He takes me back to the service area and shows me 2 filters.  One is a Yamaha factory filter and the other is an EMGO.  The Yamaha filter has this wire screen interior which would flow plenty of oil.  The EMGO filter has an interior which is a bunch of small punched holes.  The Yamaha guy tells me the EMGO filter is a POS and it's interior construction constricts the flow of oil.  He says they have had to repair a lot of motors that have been damaged by EMGO filters.

Well, I'm convinced.  I start buying Yamaha filters at their inflated price.  About a year later, I'm doing an oil change and I happen to glance into the Yamaha filter and notice that the interior has a bunch of small punched holes.  JUST like the EMGO filter.  Yamaha gave absolutely NO thought to the design of that oil filter.  They only used it because it was used on another Yamaha model.  They started buying them from the lowest bidder (which was probably EMGO).  Again, canister or spin on doesn't matter.  Filter performance is the same.  The spin on filter is far more convenient to use.  

[aviationfred]

I will weigh in here. Yes I have the spin-on filter mod.

I am not an engineer, nor claim to be able to say the cartridge style vs spin-on style is any different when it comes to filtering oil. Short of running an oil test using the same FJ, a set amount of miles under similar conditions with the cartridge filter, drain the oil, and then repeat with the spin-on filter, and send an oil sample of each test to an analysis company for a determination. Filters are like most other items for sale to the general public. Each manufacturer makes claims that theirs is the best. Whether it is the OEM Yamaha filter, an aftermarket paper filter, a spin-on Fram, Wix, Puralator, Royal Purple, K&N, Honda, Ford, Chevy etc. etc.

One thing I will disagree with you about, is that you can't fill the spin-on filter prior to installing it. I use filters that have an anti-syphon valve built in and can fill about a half of a quart of oil into the filter and not have it leak out as I install.

There are many members here that ride 10's of thousands of miles a year on our FJ's. There is always the peace of mind that if you are many miles from home on a Sunday or Monday (in the U.S. 90% of motorcycle shops are not open on Sunday or Monday) and you have to get a filter within an hour. A trip to the closest Walmart, K-Mart, NAPA, AutoZone will be able to provide a 1988 Acura Integra filter and a number of manufacturers to choose from..

Fred

[1tinindian]

What a strange topic.

Our friend from Colorado has made his choice, no need for heated arguments.

I have the spin-on adapters on both of my FJs for the ease and convenience of it.
Hell, I even have an oil screen on my 91 (right Pat?)

We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make him drink...his loss, and that is all that needs to be said.

Leon

[FJandSRX]

Well sir you ave not proved your point. And using angry words does not make it an
y bettter

[Dan Filetti]

Troll.

[FJ_Hooligan]

I'll assume you're addressing  me.  I'll gladly trade you the 3 or 4 FJ canisters I have laying around in my garage for the spin on adapter you so loathe.

[movenon]

What a strange topic.

Our friend from Colorado has made his choice, no need for heated arguments.

I have the spin-on adapters on both of my FJs for the ease and convenience of it.
Hell, I even have an oil screen on my 91 (right Pat?)

We can lead a horse to water, but we can't make him drink...his loss, and that is all that needs to be said.

Leon

+1 Leon  

George

[FJ_Hooligan]

YES! Yamaha was so wise that they put 16 inch tires on the original FJ. 

Why would anyone need 17 inch wheels/tires?  That's just crazy talk!

[FJandSRX]

Sir or madam (don"t know) I don t want to pick a fight but I have presented  factual documentation. if I am wrong show me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

[Pat Conlon]

Those opinions you expressed are what you refer to as 'factual documentation'?    Interesting.

For now, why don't we just agree to disagree?

After you put some miles on your new FJ, I think about a dozen oil changes will do it.....we can revisit the issue. Hopefully by then, you will know a wee bit more about your bike.

'Till then, Enjoy your bike.

[FJandSRX]

i 1984 17 wheels were not comon,  16 and 18 were. In 1984 The FJ 1100 blasted everyone out of the water EMD VF1000F,VF1000 gone. monster engine and torque

low slung freight locomotive, the monster, the superbike 30 yeas latwr still the super bike.

[racerrad8]

Well, I am not sure who said they were against using Yamaha parts, but if that is what you took from the conversation you are missing the point.

I will answer each one of your "reasons" in red below, with fact and not reason, opinion, or belief.

I see that you are all against the use of Yamaha parts instead of the spin on conversion. Here is my line of reasoning.

The factory filter is made to work with the factory engine instead of a Honda spin on which is not.
I am not sure why you figure the spin on oil filter will not work because Yamaha made their filter to "work with the engine". The fact of the matter, the paper media filter has been determined to be the most affordable media surface that performs the task at hand by every major manufacture past & present; canister or spin-on.

If I was so clumsy and inexperienced to pinch the wires its better if I hire some one to do the work, but with 30 years of experience I should be better than that.
I guess you have never changed the oil on an FJ before. Once you finally get the spring compressed and the alignment tab in the proper position you will not notice the kickstand wire has fallen behind the filter housing, pinching it and causing a big leak. It will happen, it has happened to all of us at one point or another and I guarantee I have changed the oil on many, many more FJ's that you have ever seen.

The spin on is messy, not that I care but a spin on sitting sideways on the engine is guaranteed to drool when removed while the factory housing has a drain plug.
Again, I suspect you have not changed the oil on the FJ yet. What do you think happens to the oil from the canister? Do you think that drain plug actually drains the housing when you remove it? Well, I am here to tell you is cannot due to the vacuum in the housing. The only way the small screw plug will drain the oil is if you break the housing free to let air into the top so it can drain out the bottom. The other problem is the housing is tapered and the drain screw is not at the bottom of the oil level so you cannot get all of the oil out if you do use the drain screw and it will also leak oil onto the collector box and into the drain pan.

If you really want to drain the spin on filter before you remove it, use a punch and poke a hole in the bottom and top of the filter, it will drain because the hole you make in the top will allow air to allow it to drain and it is not tapered so the majority of the oil will drain.

Because its not pointing down it can't be pre filled and it better have a very good anti drain back valve otherwise  every time the engine is started it will have to be filled while the engine is running with no oil pressure.
While this is partially true, for the spin on filter because it is not pointed up like most vehicles from the day, but as already mentioned, you can fill the filter and the anti drain back valve will hold the majority of the oil in the housing while the filter is installed. The fact that there is not way to fill the canister filter, your statement above is completed true for the "Yamaha designed, specific oil filter"; you must start the engine to fill the filter which was dry when you installed it. Plus there is not sort of drain back protection from the stock canister filter either.

The spin on replacement has a 20 psi bypass, the by pass valve is built in to the block on the Yamaha set up meaning that the spin on could lead to erratic oil pressure, very bad in any engine but really bad in a plain bearing engine.
Well, this point is not a valid point as you are referring to two separate oil bypass systems. There is an oil filter bypass valve assembly which is located in the center bolt of the factory canister and the Genuine Yamaha Service Manual (GYSM) list that bypass point of 11~17lbs. What happens at that pressure point is the ball is un-seated as the oil filter is pressed away from the engine compressing the spring that accompanies the filter. Once the filter is moved away as it cannot flow cold/thick oil through the media the bypass circuit kicks in and you now have unfiltered oil passing through your engine. The spin on oil filters have different pressure rating for this bypass and you can select the version you would like.

The actual engine oil pressure(s) are controlled by the oil galley pressure relief valves and have no affect on the oil filter bypass. The main oil galley bypass is set to 63-82psi while the oil cooler circuit is set to relieve pressure at 49-63psi according to the GYSM.

So oil filter bypass pressure is not related to engine oil pressure, they are two completely different systems and there is no erratic oil pressure issue related to the filter bypass circuit.

A good quality spin on costs about the same as as the cartridge filter.
Okay, I am not exact what point you are trying to make. I do not believe anyone has stated the spin on filters cost more or less than the cartridge filter.

All the seals are common O-ring seals Instead of flat O-rigs that are special order.
Incorrect, at least in most places in the US, maybe your location is different, but I do not know of any local part supplier in my area that stocks metric o-rings. Sure, you can make a o-ring manufactured in inches work, but it is not the correct one. I am not sure why you would need a "flat o-ring" because there then called square cut gaskets and there is no application on the FJ the requires them and all of the spin on oil filters have them included new with the filter.

The only good thing I can see is that I can easily get a filter from Baldwin, Fleetguard or Donaldson and don't have to put up with a mediocre filter such as Wix.
You obviously come from a heavy equipment background as the filters you hold to the higher standard are primarily used for those applications. So, I took the time and looked up your favorite brands by the cross reference. The funny thing with all three filter you hold in stature above the "mediocre" Wix brand filter to not have a full and complete spec sheet like the Wix filter does which includes micron rating, flow rates and burst pressure.

WIX Filter
Part Number:   51334
Style:   Spin-On Lube Filter
Service:   Lube
Type:   Full Flow
Media:   Paper
Height:   3.194
Outer Diameter Top:   3.252
Outer Diameter Bottom:   Closed:
Thread Size:   20X1.5 MM
By-Pass Valve Setting-PSI:   8-11
Anti-Drain Back Valve:   Yes
Beta Ratio:   2/20=6/20
Burst Pressure-PSI:   280
Max Flow Rate:   9-11 GPM
Nominal Micron Rating:   21

Gasket Diameters Number   O.D.   I.D.   Thk.
Attached    2.475   2.173   0.233

Baldwin Filter
Descriptions:    Lube Spin-on
Contains:    Anti-Drainback Valve
14 PSID By-Pass Valve
Thread:    M20 x 1.5
O.D.:    3 (76.2)
Length:    2 27/32 (72.2)
I. Gskt.:    [1] Included

Fleetguard Filter
BPV Setting    55 kPa (7.98 PSI)
Overall Height    81.03 mm (3.19 in)
Largest OD    84.07 mm (3.31 in)
Thread Size    M20 X 1.5-6H INT
ADBV    Yes

Donaldson Filter
Lube Filters Product Attributes
Outer Diameter:     3.18 Inches (81 MM)
Thread Size:     M20 x 1.5
Length:     3.39 Inches (86 MM)
Gasket OD:     2.50 Inches (64 MM)
Gasket ID:     2.11 Inches (54 MM)
Efficiency 99%:     39 Micron
Efficiency Test Std:     ISO 16889
Anti Drain Valve:     Yes
Bypass Valve Setting:     11-17 PSI (0.8-1.0 BAR)
Price Type:     F
(at least on this brand we know we can get 1848 of them on a pallet and their micron rating in 14 microns higher than the "mediocre Wix filter")

I wonder what their full specifications are, maybe you can find some more information of the filters you liken and post it up because they do not offer much to the public via their websites.

Am I wrong? I just don't see how a spin on is better than a cartridge filer just because its a spin on. Is there something I am missing?
I am not sure if "wrong" is the right word, but you are missing the many things the spin on oil filter does to benefit you and your new investment;
1- The fact the spin on filter is an equivalent of better filtration system than the stock canister due to more filter media surface and better cooling.
2- It is easier to spin the oil filter off & on compared to:
    a) removing the canister.
    b) cleaning it.
    c) replacing the o-ring on the center bolt.
    d) digging the spring out of the oil pan as it fell in there when you removed the filter.
    e) making sure you retrieve the washer from the old filter to make sure the spring does not damage the seal around the bolt of the new filter.
    f) grease the outer o-ring in so it does not fall out while you are trying to install the canister. Then wonder where the "oil" is coming from as the grease melts and runs down you engine block later.
    g) compress the whole mess while trying to start the bolt.
    h) align the alignment tab.
    i) and... make sure you do not pinch the wire.
3- You will never strip out the little drain plug screw.
4- You will never crack the housing.
5- You will not continue to wear out the aluminum threads in the block by screwing the center bolt in & out every time you change the oil filter.
6- You will never pinch the wiring between the engine block and the housing. (or ever have to worry about it again with the spin on.)
7- The spin on filter allows more cooling capability than the canister filter design. The fact the oil filter has air space around the complete filter means the oil filter can dissipate more heat. The canister housing is cast to match the slave cylinder housing and there is no air gap or flow over the top side of the filter.
8- The spin on filter gives you many more options to locate a filter than your local Yamaha dealer or online supplier. With the part numbers supplied you have your choice basically of any brand of spin-on oil filter made not just the Yamaha cartridge filter you get from your dealer, unless you are going to use an aftermarket canister filter which you then get 2-3 brand options.

A couple more points that I will cover since you did not bring them up.

The canister drain screw strips very easily due to the fact it is not a full circumference thread as if has three notches in the thread to allow the oil to "drain" without having to completely remove the screw. The torque of that screw is 5.1 ft lbs or 7Nm. Plus, after you use it a few times the aluminum threads soften & wear and it will strip with the twist of a phillips screwdriver.

The center bolt, AKA "BY-PASS VALVE ASSEMBLY", when using the canister should not be tightened more than the recommend 11 ft lbs or 15Nm as the canister housing will crack.

Filter media surface area, depending on the spin on filter you use, you can achieve more than a 50% increase in the filter media exposed to the oil.

I am confident as the manufacture of the spin on oil filter conversion, with now over 500 units sold and used worldwide with every filter known to man, the spin-on oil filter is equivalent or better regarding the filtering process, the convenience and other benefits far outweigh the use of the stock design canister.

Do what you want, you are not alone, there are some that do not like the "look" of the spin on filter and choose to use the stock canister. It was designed by Yamaha to protect the engine and that is what it does; the same thing the spin-on oil filter does but without the convenience to spin off & on the oil filter in less than a minute.

I assure you you cannot change the canister in less than a minute...

While I was replying to your "reasoning" as you stated at the beginning of your post, you have now converted your reasons into "facts".

Sir or madam (don"t know) I don t want to pick a fight but I have presented  factual documentation.

I am not sure what facts you presented above, but I hope if you have more facts to bring forward, please do so. Facts, not reasoning or opinion.

Randy - RPM

[aviationfred]

Here is a video of a high end spin-on filter. I believe 2013 filter technology has far surpassed 1984 Cartridge filter technology. Forget all about the mess or lack there of one has over the other during a filter change. Keeping these air cooled motors as clean internally as possible is the objective. An OEM Yamaha or Emgo filter just doesn't measure up.

http://www.royalpurpleconsumer.com/products/royal-purple-oil-filters/

Fred

[FJ_Hooligan]

Sir or madam (don"t know) I don t want to pick a fight but I have presented  factual documentation. if I am wrong show me.

"Factual Documentation?"  HA!  You've "presented" your opinion.  I've presented my EXPERIENCE with almost 30 years of FJ ownership.  But, you go ahead with what you "think" is right.

[fintip]

Yeah, the original poster is a little deluded in imagining that "Yamaha = best". The manufacturer tries to get reliability as cheaply as possible, and has to work within many limitations. As the skymasteres has elegantly pointed out elsewhere, there are many opportunities for improvement on these bikes that even an average guy could do himself. Anyone who believes otherwise is foolishly misguided... And why someone who has 30 years of experience would not yet have learned this is beyond me.