EXHAUST HEADER PROBLEM

[FJTillDeath]

Okay this is the exhaust header problem. Just so everybody knows, my name is Jesse. My username is supposed to be FJ-TILL-DEATH

I would like to apologise for creating a whole bunch of confusion with my other thread. I took some pictures which I will show. I took a video to and if needed will post that as well. I even burnt my cheek on the exhaust downpipes trying to get close enough to determine the noise.

The symptons of the problem:
    I noticed it on Saturday morning when I noticed a small oil leak(will be discussed in next thread). The night before I had taken the FJ 0n a good 5 minute flat out ride travelling 160km the whole way on a straight. While I was riding it did feel like the bike was being pushed a little too hard.
   On the Saturday when I started her up, it was a little more difficult than normal(and it wasnt a very cold morning)
   The sound coming from the bike was very horendous and sounded like metal bits were loose in the engine everytime I opened the throttle a little bit up
   It sounded like the exhaust was blowing on the 2 downpipes on the right.
   I took it to the dealer and immediately he said it was the exhaust headers but would take the bike in and check to make sure.
   Everybody else I have asked about the bike agrees that it sounds very much like the exhaust headers are gone.

Here are the pics:

These are the 2 that are said to have broken and blown a gasket.

These 2 are the ones that are said to be fine(on the ledt when sitting on the bike)

The only thing i noticed was the bolts that hold the headers/downpipes were slightly bent on both side.

This is the only visible part I can tell that is definitely cracked and broken from the header(picture of the right side inner header.

The noise which sounds like the exhaust is blowing like a tractor goes click click clik is coming from what sounds like inside the actual engine(right side) close to where the exhausts join into it. To clarify the sound it sounds a lot like what Arnie described of the exhaust headers ratlling when they get old and rust

Since the saturday the bike has ony begun to sound worse each day with a loss of power each day too. It also gets much hotter than usual and stays hot for longer periods of time.

I hope this makes things slightly less confusing. As i said I did take a video and if you guys want me to upload it I will. If I have omitted any information you may need for a desicion let me know. Thanks for all the help I get.

[andyb]

These are exhaust gaskets, and they go between the head pipe and the cylinder head. They crush to fit, and really should be replaced every time you pull the exhaust off.

Running the bike at night, in nearly total darkness will make an exhaust leak that near the head very visible, usually (you'll see the fire of combustion exiting the motor!)

Looks like someone's been there before you, possibly pulling a stud out and replacing it with a bolt.  You won't know the extent of the bodging until you've been in to swap the gaskets.  In the topmost picture, notice that the outside (left as shown) exhaust pipe flange is retained by a nut on a stud, but the flange next to it appears to be bolted down.

The header itself is most likely just fine from what's shown in those pictures.  I'm concerned that the head itself may have a stripped hole or such.  You may end up requiring a heli-coil installed or the like (there may be one already there even) and possibly some new bolts to replace the bodged ones.  And some anti-sieze for reassembly to help prevent those nuts from becoming one with each other, and some penetrating oil for removing them (they're often a real bastard to break loose).

[FJTillDeath]

Again a great reply

I am slightly confused though in why everyone is telling me the headers are broken and need to be replaced. The dealer had it apart so they actually saw everything, although as it has been pointed out to me they can be filthy lying bastards, but this dealer is one that everyone I know has only said good things about, but still. I would like to give more detailed pics so that everybody here can make 100percent accurate observation with regards to the heads. I was going to take them apart this weekend but after hearing the gaskets need to be replaced after every removal of the exhausts Im not sure I want to take the chance at making something that may be a problem any worse than what it is.

I am actually quite excited in a way to get the new exhaust system(if I have to) as it would be a nice thing to give the bike a bit more life and make it look a bit newer. As I said I havent ordered it yet and will only order it if its true in that the headers are indeed broken.

With the seeing of the flame - I wouldnt know as I never looked down and was concentrating too much on looking forward for any cars trying to jump out of nowhere. I will be riding in the night again tonight so I will keep a lookout.

When you say you are worried if the headers have stripped a hole, what do you exactly mean? Where and how and what kind of damage is it to replace? I have heard talk of heli coils before on this forum are they spring like things? One thing I did forget to mention is that on the saturday while riding to work I heard what sounded like a spring snap - at the time I assumed it was just a piece of metal I rode over or one of the pedestrians around me doing something stupid.

[andyb]

The headers have a flange on them at the motor side.  That flange fits over a pair of studs that are threaded into the cylinder head, and then the flange is retained by nuts.  Looks a bit like someone's pulled some of the studs and used bolts instead, so you'd be threading a steel bolt into the aluminum head, over time this is going to cause it to strip the hole out.  More importantly, why did the person do that?  Finding things like that always worries me.

You shouldn't be able to see a leak from the riding position, but if you kneel in front of the bike it should be possible.

[FJTillDeath]

You shouldn't be able to see a leak from the riding position, but if you kneel in front of the bike it should be possible.

After burning my cheek yesterday I am not so keen to stand that near to the exhausts again.

As for why? Well I know on my 125 the flger broke loose and I had to make a makeshift bolt to keep it in place which worked and that may be the same the person who worked before on this bike did. I know the previous owner ran over a traffic circle and did some serious damage to the engine and the front of the bike which was all rebuilt. I think that the exhausts too were damaged at this time and that is clear as when you look at one of the downpipes there is a big dent in it. The downpipe in question is coincedentally the same that has the nut on the flanger you speak of. So that specific exhaust mayvery well have had damage done to it. As I said the bike had been performing perfectly fine until the saturday morning after the friday ride where I discpvered the oil and the bad sounds from the engine/ exhaust

[Arnie]

Jesse,

You don't have to be right on top of the exhaust to see if there's flame coming out beside the pipe.  Keep yourself a safe distance away (1/2 metre or more).  With the bike on the stand and running - At night in a dark place with the headlights off you'll either see a glow or flames if its leaking badly.
Should this be the case, you'll have to replace the exhaust gaskets and you should replace the missing studs at the same time.  If the threaded holes in the head are damaged, you should repair them with heli-coil inserts or timeserts.

Your bike has double-walled exhaust pipes.  These sometimes rust or burn through near the head and the inner pipe can rattle.  The outer pipe looks fine but it sounds like there's a fistful of marbles rattling around in there.
You might be able to hear it rattle just be rocking the bike side to side while its not running.  Get a helper so you don't drop the bike while shaking.  If this is the case, a new header pipe or full exhaust is in your future.
You will be able to determine if this is the case once you remove the exhaust to deal with the gaskets and studs.
Shake the pipe and if it rattles, its bad.

Arnie

[SlowOldGuy]

Arnie,
I'm thinking those are aftermarket header pipes, or else the stock flanges would/should be in place.  So probably not double walled.

Jesse, one step at a time.  Replace a set of exhaust gaskets and see if it helps then move on from there.

DavidR.

[RichBaker]

I agree with David, looks like an aftermarket header.....

[FJTillDeath]

Update time.

As I said in the other thread I took the bike to 2 dealers and my brother who all gave me the same answer in slightly different words. (just to note I went to them asking opinions, not an actual sale)

I had misunderstood the initial dealer wrong. The exhaust headers(the 2 right ones) were damaged and had blown gaskets, however no amount of welding would help there. The welding was needed to be done where the actual exhaust pipe(end piece) connects to the 4 into 1. And even if that part was welded it would not last very long.

I did as Arnie and Andy said and looked at the bike in thwe night and did see a glow and flame from the bike on the 2 right headers and a tiny glow on the middle left one.

I also shook the bike from side to side and heard a rattling/ metal sound - so I am skrewed.

See this is the cause of it all - about a month ago I had my girlfriend on the back with me(need to adjust my suspension will set up an new thread for that) and there was a little hump in the road (about 30cm wide) and when I went over it with her on the back the exhaust (the 4 into 1 connection part) scraped against it quite badly. I checked to see if any damage was done and didnt see anything so I assumed the bike was fine. On the same day, but later I was driving to see my doctor and his ramp to the parking lot was also raised and caused the bike to do the same thing AGAIN. I learnt my lesson from there and everytime I see I hump anywhere I either go around it or ask my girlfriend to get off. Anyway back to the topic. It seems as though the damage was caused from there and over the month with the bike being pushed here and the it started to wear through until eventually on the friday I told you about when I really pushed the bike with my girlfriend on it It caused the exhaust to heat up more than usual and actually burn right through the connection simultaneously blowing the first 2 gaskets. The 3rd one is starting to go as well because of the heat the bike is currebtly generating.

All dealers and my brother told me it would be best just to get a whole new system and when I told them was I was being charged they all agreed it was actually a good price with the labour, so it looks like my original dealer aint too much a snake after all.

I apologise for not actually getting the correct information across right from the beginning as my head was just spinning when listening to the dealer the first time.

The one thing I am concerned about is the heat from the bike NOW, it seems as though the heat is RADIATING off the left side of the engine, so much so that I have to stretch out my left knee further away from the engine - cos if I dont it feels like I am going to burn it. The reason this worries me is that the days are starting to get much warmer and the exhaust system will take 5 days to be at the dealer, ready to install.

In conclusion it seems as though the headers were a problem but the main problem was caused from the 4 into 1 connection which is NOW damaged so badly that welding will not help. When I speak to the deaker to get the system I will also speak to them about the studs and a heli coil.

Thanks again for everybodies time and for making my life easier, you have confirmed what everybody else has and if I had provided you with the info on the connection you probably would have been spot on with that too

Many thanks
Jesse

[FJTillDeath]

So update. The exhaust will only arrive next week wednesday:(


So will keep everyone informed on what happens and post a vid as no one seems to know much about the cowley exhaust....

Bike wiil survive the few extra days just dont feel safe. Wont be on for the rest of the weekend so I dont have to annoy anybody lol

[FJTillDeath]

So hopefully the last update before I actually GET the exhuast. Still hasn't arrived, dealer promised to have it tomorrow and latest be fitted by friday. Slightly annoyed(having a really shitty day) but I'm giving the dealer the chance. I've already payed so I can't really do anything but wait. Though they promised me 1st it would be done by friday-last week. So in effect they have taken 100percent longer than initially promised