Thoughts on Suspension Set-up

[ribbert]

What about head dragging?

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiV7_7F58rNAhVJ1oMKHa-NDM8QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmakeagif.com%2FOLDCK5&bvm=bv.125596728,d.eWE&psig=AFQjCNGfQVODZBRckfCVFTiUC9_ZvOvtYg&ust=1467206082859420

Noel

[ribbert]

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...

Randy - RPM

.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.

Noel

Don't worry, I get through corners plenty fast and sometimes the front wheel even leaves the ground on exit. Some more than others, right Frank?

That is why trail braking works; the front is compressed and the rear end is real light. But you still have the skill and ability to use the rear brake to help slow & turn the bike into the corner. Thus faster corner speeds

Randy - RPM

For the sake of credibility I will leave my own opinion out of it, although I have spent much time learning the technique and still use under certain circumstances.

Keith Code said this:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi8zoCx6crNAhUCRCYKHSJMA78QFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motomom.ca%2Fkeith-code-on-trail-braking-exclusive-interview%2F&usg=AFQjCNGKtGnLPrkoU6O_0u75EQSQVSm6bA&sig2=5ZmsNm9WpzQ7iRW87Bnovg

It's an interesting read and sees Keith diplomatically avoiding a conclusive backing of either camp and contains enough information that depending on your bias, both sides will claim it as an endorsement of their preference.

My take on it is that it's no longer the "silver bullet" is was first thought to be in racing, most top tier riders do not use it as a matter of course (only under certain circumstances) and it delivers no benefit for street riding.

My own experience is that it's not the fastest way around a corner - that's start to finish, not just entry.
Lifting the front wheel off the rebound of the forks out of a corner is no indication of speed through the corner.

Don't forget, the guys that use trail braking on the track are taking the same corners hundreds of times over and have the opportunity to fine tune them to the enth degree, a luxury you don't have on the road.

Other than Kieth suggesting this is not a technique for the road, there is no right or wrong answer.
This is a technique developed with the intention of shaving 1000's of a second of lap times on a racetrack and serves no purpose on the road.

It is an interesting subject and I have read much reference material on it not that long ago and I spent a long time playing with it. There is no right or wrong outcome, but for me it's not the quickest way around a corner, certainly it's the most spectacular and has high degree of satisfaction though.

Noel

[racerrad8]

My own experience is that it's not the fastest way around a corner - that's start to finish, not just entry.
Lifting the front wheel off the rebound of the forks out of a corner is no indication of speed through the corner.

Noel

Noel,

I don't think it would matter what I said about the subject, I believe you would disagree with my point of view.

With that said, the lifting of the front end it not based on the rebound of the forks. It is based on the proper and efficienct of the RPM suspension components allowing full traction to the rear tire. The acceleration and horsepower is lifting the wheel. Frank experiences the same thing with his FJ with the Ohlin shock and 1350 engine. There is no slamming of the throttle to lift the wheel. If you ever watch the UK road racers, or even most track racers, you will see them having front wheel lift on acceleration. They to are able to use all of the power to drive the bike forward, but it likes to rotate up; ewasier to lift the weight of the bike than push the mass forward.

I remember the rebound wheelies in my 65' VW bug back in high school. We used to take the front shocks off, bounce back & forth on the throttle and my ol' bug used to drag the header out back for a spark show at night. That is not what is happening on my FJ...

So, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. As a racer I know how to get the most out of everything I drive and ride. I use of all of the components on a vehicle to obtain the fastest way through any corner.

But hey that is my opinion and I don't write an internet column telling people what is right & wrong for them...I'll leave that to Keith.

I only had to read the first sentence to know which position you have taken; "There is a lot of misunderstanding about the technique of trail braking; specifically people seem to be either for using trail braking, or against it". I did not read any further...

I give up

Randy - RPM

[CutterBill]

At high speeds countersteering is near impossible due to the force required to overcome the inertia of the bike...

This is the strangest comment I think I've ever seen, concerning turning a bike.  In my experience, it is astonishingly easy to countersteer at high speeds... the mere suggestion of a push on the left bar will send the bike into a gracefully smooth arc to the left.  But then, the fastest I've gone on a bike is 140mph.  Perhaps countersteering becomes more difficult above that speed.

Fighter pilots in the single engine propeller era learned this quickly from WW1 until the jet age after WW2.  Using the gyroscopic effect of the engine/propeller they could turn harder in the direction of the propeller spin (usually left?). 

Hmmm... not quite.  Propeller driven (and indeed some jets) will roll faster in the direction opposite to the rotation of the propeller.  This is merely due to the torque of the engine, much like an old BMW will rock left and right as the throttle is twisted.  But the airplane, once established at a given angle of bank... say 60 degrees... will not turn "harder."  The rate of turn will be the same left or right.

Bill
Airframe & Powerplant Mechanic with Inspection Authorization
Commercial Pilot, Single & Multi-engine Land, with Instrument rating
Certified Flight Instructor, Instrument (inactive)

[CutterBill]

Now this is how you lean a bike...

[Flynt]

Now this is how you lean a bike...

That's the limit alright...  and people wonder why the supermoto boys put their leg out front like that.  Where else would it go?

Frank

[Flynt]

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

I guess that really depends on how hard you ride it into the corner...

Randy - RPM

.....as opposed to how fast you want get through it.

Noel

Don't worry, I get through corners plenty fast and sometimes the front wheel even leaves the ground on exit. Some more than others, right Frank?

That is why trail braking works; the front is compressed and the rear end is real light. But you still have the skill and ability to use the rear brake to help slow & turn the bike into the corner. Thus faster corner speeds

Randy - RPM

So I'm no expert, but isn't trail braking a very different proposition than backing-in (what I think Noel's talking about)?  I use trail braking most of the time.  In a late apex corner, I let go of the front brake just about at the turn-in.  I keep the rear brake working until I'm at what I think is the correct entry speed.  This is to stay away from the traction limits of the front tire...  really bad to have a front slip on turn-in.  The differential between front and rear brake release is a couple seconds max.

Backing-in is using the above technique, but modulating between faster rotation on turn-in (due to the rear skidding a bit) and a high side off (skidding a little too much).  This is hyper dangerous even for the best riders and is really only done when your tires are hot and greasy, again to limit the traction demands you're putting on the front tire.  As Noel said, racers get plenty of practice for each corner and can master the technique to get a couple thousandths off each corner.  This has no place on the street, although if you enter a corner way too hot it may be your best choice.  

Frank

[ribbert]

........I only had to read the first sentence to know which position you have taken; "There is a lot of misunderstanding about the technique of trail braking; specifically people seem to be either for using trail braking, or against it". I did not read any further...

Randy - RPM

You should have, that was not Keith Code, it was the interviewer putting the question to him. He has been teaching trail braking for decades, continues to do so and supports it!!!!!
It was not an advice column.
I chose this article because it was neither in favour of nor against it and because it presented a balanced view from both sides and Code is a respected and acknowledged author on racing techniques. It was a conciliatory offering that had you taken the time read it supports trail braking and gives a good overview that (as I said) should satisfy both camps - there's a time and a place and just where that applies is a matter of personal preference, no right or wrong.

I think I mentioned 3 times, there is no right or wrong, how much clearer can I be?

....I don't write an internet column telling people what is right & wrong for them...

Randy - RPM

Perhaps you should.....

As a racer I know how to get the most out of everything I drive and ride.

Randy - RPM

I don't think it would matter what I said about the subject, I believe you would disagree with my point of view.

Finally, the root of the problem. You tried second guessing me, so convinced you knew what I was going to say you didn't even bother to read the post. That speaks volumes. Had you read it, you would have been wrong.

Perhaps you could take a leaf out of Franks book. Frank doesn't even like me, he described as "full of shit most of the time" and I think I've had PM's from him to the same effect, but he does have the ability to separate the message from the messenger and acknowledge good information when he reads it, putting aside who posted it, as he has done on a number of occasions. It's hard to warm to a bloke that says that about you but well done anyway Frank, keep it up 

Randy, it's probably several years since I have disagreed with anything you've said on the forum, not through lack of opportunity, but I make a point of not doing so. Probably time you started reading my posts with a little less bias and just take them at face value, which is the spirit in which they are written.

BTW, I stated my view first, so it was not I disagreeing with you.

Why was my opinion more inflammatory than Pats?........

My novice opinion is "hanging off" is unnecessary on the street.

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

It wasn't.

Rant:

Randy, why couldn't you simply agree to disagree rather than make it personal by suggesting it's just me being gratuitously contrary and dismiss my contribution as not even worth reading, it serves no purpose, creates ill will and reinforces that view in peoples minds. As the forum guru you need to be above that sort of pettiness. We already have one member who has that well and truly covered.

Discrediting the messenger as a tactic happens all too often here when the status quo is challenged. Mike Ramos for example had this to say just last week about people who do not conform to forum lore - "just continue the search for disapproval in vain narcissism – ah yes, hubris knows no bounds...."  It's just possible Mike that there is knowledge beyond the forum and being a dissenting voice is not a sign of personality disorder.


Noel

[PaulG]

At high speeds countersteering is near impossible due to the force required to overcome the inertia of the bike...

This is the strangest comment I think I've ever seen, concerning turning a bike.... 

As I said:

...  It may be done, but try doing it for a 45min race - let alone a 24hr endurance.

... plus at lean angles consistently over 60 deg.

... Propeller driven (and indeed some jets) will roll faster in the direction opposite to the rotation of the propeller.  This is merely due to the torque of the engine, much like an old BMW will rock left and right as the throttle is twisted.  But the airplane, once established at a given angle of bank... say 60 degrees... will not turn "harder."  The rate of turn will be the same left or right.

Yes I stand corrected.  I believe what I meant to say was, it will roll faster thus initiating a turn quicker.  Yeah that's it. 
BTW - if anyone has an old Beemer and it's noticeably rocking back and forth, it may be in dire need of a tune up.  Coming from an ex-old Beemer owner.

Paul
Toxic Shit Shovelling Auto Parts Worker
and Certified All Round Ne'er-Do-Well 

[ribbert]

Paul
Toxic Shit Shovelling Auto Parts Worker
and Certified All Round Ne'er-Do-Well 

I like that, very funny.

Noel

[Flynt]

Frank doesn't even like me, he described as "full of shit most of the time" and I think I've had PM's from him to the same effect

Would you unblock me from sending you a PM please?

Frank

[racerrad8]

Rant:

Randy, why couldn't you simply agree to disagree rather than make it personal by suggesting it's just me being gratuitously contrary and dismiss my contribution as not even worth reading, it serves no purpose, creates ill will and reinforces that view in peoples minds. As the forum guru you need to be above that sort of pettiness. We already have one member who has that well and truly covered.

Discrediting the messenger as a tactic happens all too often here when the status quo is challenged. Mike Ramos for example had this to say just last week about people who do not conform to forum lore - "just continue the search for disapproval in vain narcissism – ah yes, hubris knows no bounds...."  It's just possible Mike that there is knowledge beyond the forum and being a dissenting voice is not a sign of personality disorder.


Noel

Response:

Noel you are right, I should have never questioned anything you have written or offered in support of a position.

I will say this, I have not made anything personal and if you fell I have, I apologize for that.

Why was your post about "trail braking" questioned and Pat's about "hanging off" not? Well, I agree with Pat's statement and do not agree with yours. But since you have so eloquently pointed out, I should have read the article you posted by Keith and then I could have made a more informed response. But instead I chose to respond only based on my actual experience and not words of others.

As I said before...

I give up

Back to regular scheduled programming, please continue where Noel left off...

I agree, as is trail braking.

Noel

Randy - RPM

[Alte Fahrt]

Having read all the above, I think I'll continue to cruise through the corners and enjoy the scenery.

[Mike Ramos]

Noel,

It is interesting to see how the subject was so capriciously yet adroitly switched from "hanging off" to "trail braking"....!  While it may be your option to change the focus of the original post, doing so merely underscores your combination of shrewd and puerile behavior.  But you have been clever by half...

Your misinterpretation of my comments regarding "hanging off" on the street, or that I  was desiring to be challenged on the subject, was plain ignorance at best and at worse a failed attempt to dissemble your actual intent.  Even after it was clearly explained to you by Mr. Olson, you remained insistent.

However, your attempt to attribute to me a statement you yourself made that someone has a "personality disorder" because they disagree is bizarre, odious, and a useless endeavor.  Disagreement is part and parcel to a variety of subjects on this Forum and all who participate know this. 

The object of my original post was simple. It was to clearly show that under a variety of conditions and road surfaces (even with riding to the edges of the tires, with a properly adjusted suspension and without having the motorcycle raised, all underscored and buttressed by the video) nothing drags except a foot peg occasionally.  It was an absolute and complete repudiation of your claim (within the parameters noted above) that it is possible to drag the exhaust and undercarriage, let alone the brake and gear shift levers.

You have been harping on the subject for sometime; later, when asked about a particular post, your reply was you were "disproving Mike Ramos".  Feel free to parse this post if you so desire, yet your exaggerated and pedantic claims remain more than circumspect; they have in fact been concisely and empirically disproved.

Idealized track conditions are not normally found on the street; at times the divide between the two is wide and often the parallels are few.  I am fortunate to live on the roads you ride to -- from home I can journey literally hundreds of miles without ever riding on a main thoroughfare and a thousand more without encountering a four-lane.  With excellent all around performance from both a well tuned engine and suspension, the reverie never ends...     

So, feel free to change the subject, bring in experts and articles not related to the original discussion, incorrectly attribute detrimental statements you yourself made to others, and continue your ad hominem attacks all you desire.  Such behavior is that of a recreant.

Of course, always ride safe.

Midget

[ribbert]

Noel,

But you have been clever by half...


Midget

Mike, just read your post in its entirety, I believe the saying is "too clever by half"

Noel