SIX PISON FRONT BRAKE CALIPERS......

[teeeeeceeeee]

Well my YZF750 & '99 Hayabusa BOTH have six piston calipers.............. I consider that the Factory did it for a reason........Particularly since the "99 Busa was designed from the ground up as a high speed blaster & the SOLE purpose of the YZF750 was for the world 750cc superbike class.

On the YZF750 forum I frequent, many owners after changing to R1 Bluespots have changed back to the standard six piston calipers as they give way more "feel"  and efficiency particularly with braided lines installed.

I guess it's all about what gives the best of both "Feel" and "effectiveness" and the six pots seem to do this.

As a side note.............when I changed my FJ1100 standard calipers to FZR400RR 4 pots the difference was HUGE and both where with braided lines.

TeeCee

[andyb]

The factory(ies) have made a lot of stupid mistakes over the years, also.

Some of the time I wonder if they change from this style to that just so they have a "new for <model year> improvements".....

[SlowOldGuy]

That's exactly it.  They are trading rotational weight (the rotor) with static weight (the caliper).  Both are "unsprung."  Reducing reciprocating weight, whether it is in the engine, transmission, or the wheels inproves acceleration.  This may be a case where the benefits of a slight weight gain by the caliper is more than offset by the benefits of a small weight reduction in the rotor.  Plus the reduction in the effect of moment of inertia on handling.

Seems to me like they are picking nits, but I guess this is what they are down to these days.  I remember back in the sprint car racing days the crew chief would practically rebuild the car between the heat and the feature; change torsion bars, add weight, change tire stagger, wheel spacing, air pressure, etc.  Some of this was necessary to keep up with the changing track conditons, but no one else in the pitts ever did as much as we were doing.  The driver usually wasted the first half of the race trying to figure out what kind of car he had since it was always so different between races.  I remeber the crew chief agonizing over whether to put in a 1/4 or 1/2 inch wheel spacer.  My comments were "Will a 1/4 inch difference in spacer really mean the difference between running first and last? If our driver isn't worth a 1/4 inch spacer, then maybe we need a different driver."  Ends up our driver was worth much more than a 1/4 inch spacer. We won more races on the nights when the crew chief couldn't show up because we did NOTHING to the car.

Roundabout way of saying probably 99.99% of the riders out there are not capable of using any of this sportbike technology the way it's really meant to be used.  There's a lot of good technology going on in the motorcycle world these days, but sometimes it seems like they are trying to make up another neat acronym for the marketing people.   Or to draw an FJ anology, it's the modern equivalent of the electric petcock.  Just something else to go wrong. 

How much faster do they really need to make these bikes?  Kind of like the R6.  It's become a great track day weapon, but it gets trashed in street use for being so track focused. 

I keep waiting for the next FJ, but they continue to ignore me.

DavidR.
not that i'm cynical or anything.  :-)

[MyFirstNameIsPaul]

Yes, good for the track is not necessarily good for the street.  Case in point is brake pads.  You wouldn't want to run WSB level brake pads on the street because they take too long to warm up.  On a track, the bike spends almost half or more of its time on the brakes, while on the street hardly any time is spent on the brakes, so the pads for the track can use materials that take more warming even though if that same pad were used on the street it could be dangerous in emergency situations.  When I did track days on a regular basis I ran the WSB level Ferodo pads (because I worked for their distributor at the time) and they definitely would not be good on the street.

Same for suspension.  I get my suspension tuned by Jim Lindemann, and I have a terrible time getting him to tune it so it works on the street.  It's so but-numbing hard that it's almost dangerous, especially on bumps in the wet.  But Rich Oliver swears by Jim and never let anyone else touch his setup.

Rossi said in his book that when he went to Yamaha he and Burgess would only change one thing at a time, which was different than what all the previous crews and racers were doing with that bike, which was nearly infinitely adjustable as compared to the Honda and others.

And the marketing aspect is not to be ignored.  Why do the later FJ's have fuel pumps?

I definitely agree that they're not making good sport-touring bikes right now.  What I really want is a 1000 cc sport-tourer, something like a detuned ZX-10R motor that gets good fuel economy, has a large gas tank and is in a beefier frame with more comfortable riding position.  My ultimate fantasy would make it a V-4, but I'd settle for a counter-balanced straight. 

[andyb]

Track riding and street riding are as different as street riding is to dirtbiking.

That being said, there's a bunch of different ways to ride on the street as well.  What works for a corner carver won't work for a commuter which won't work for a dragracer.

Later FJ's have a fuel pump because it wasn't a bright design choice.  It's a little nicer about screwing up the line routing i understand though.  Hell, look at the hayabusa... how many CCT designs did it take before they stopped making grenades?  3?

A perfect sports tourer?  Again, define sport touring.  I know my ideal ST bike is probably a 98 or newer ZX9, or a CBR1100XX, or something of that ilk, any of them with raised bars and a good seat probably.  Soft luggage and I'm done.  But a lot of guys like the FJR (a giant monstrosity, in my eyes), some guys like hard bags on the FJ, etc etc.  One bike that was never made and would have undoubtedly done well would be a VFR1100, take a 91-97 or so model and stick the V65 motor in, tune it to about 130rwhp, make hard bags an option, and you're done.  On the other hand, some people want more comfort, less oomph, and more practicality in their sporttouring, and want the ST1100, FJR, GTS1000, and so on.

Right now, I don't like most of the bikes being put out.  They're either massively overweight, lumbering beasts with horrible styling, or they're overly sporty machines with ridiculous gearing, powerbands that don't start until you're well over legal speed, and frames (nevermind the damned bodywork, the FRAMES are crap in all but the mildest of crashes anymore...) that can't handle a tipover without getting tweaked--also with nasty styling  WTF is up with the designers these days?  Nevermind my rant on clutches that can be burned in a half dozen hard takeoffs. 

I was very tempted to buy a VTR1000 instead of the ZX9 recently.  My primary goal was something that made enough power to prevent me from feeling like I had to wind it constantly, had some character, 6 gears, liquid cooling, utter reliability, with enough comfort to be ridable for 6 hours at a go, and fun enough that I'd WANT to ride it for 6 hours at a go.  My shopping list included everything from a late 90's ZX6E to a PC800.


On the street, you don't need ungodly power, extreme flickability, nor any of the other attributes that seem to be selling sport-type bikes these days.  You need reasonable comfort, enough cargo area to keep you happy depending on how much you carry with you, good enough handling that your limits are met before the bike's are, and absolute trustworthiness from the machine, so you don't fear being stranded due to a failure.  But to finish the lineup, you have to get on the bike and get a feeling of character, of fun from it.  Maybe for you that's riding something totally linear and predictable (BORING TO ME!), maybe it means enough twitchiness to give the bars an occasional flap; maybe you want enough power to loft the wheel at will, maybe you want the tires to spin on command at a corner exit.  Maybe you want a raspy exhaust note, maybe you want perfect stability.

All bikes are compromises.  All we can do is buy what we think is an acceptable set of compromises, and modify it in such a way that brings it closer in line to our ideals.  As we age, move, change situations, change roads, change riding buddies, or change riding styles, all of our compromises change.  We just know we still have to have a motorbike in our life to remain happy.  

Right now my garage is covered in parts of happy.  Sigh.  

[RichBaker]

So why do the 2010 R1's have six pots on the front?

Later......

that's a damn good question....  

here is an interesting article i found on brake calipers....

http://www.superstreetbike.com/howtos/0906_sbkp_brake_calipers_explained/index.html

so to me it looks like if you want a smaller rotor (310mm on the 6 piston models = less rotational force/less unsprung weight) you would need 6 pistons working on it to achieve the same braking force as a larger rotor (previous version 320mm) would have using 4 piston calipers

so it looks like they switched to 6 piston calipers in order to have smaller diameter rotors which will improve transitional handling by decreasing unsprung weight.

howzat?

KOokaloo!

Very nice.  Unsprung weight vs. sprung weight....

Later...

Uhhh.... everything hanging out there at the end of the forks is UNsprung weight. I believe it has more to do with rotating mass..... and the effect upon steering.

[Arnie]

David, Andy, Paul,

I agree with all of you guys.
Choosing a bike is an exersize in defining what set of compromises you're willing to make.
While my FJ is not perfect, it is still more capable than I am.  Probably was even before the various mods I've made.
Arguing over the benefits of 310 vs 320 mm brake disks when we'll likely not be able to use all the stopping power anyhow is a futile waste of time.

How much difference would "better" brakes have been for me last week?  I was going down a very steep curvy hill that had had a load of sorgum spilt on it the day before.  As a street rider "ulitmate" stopping power is usually not available due to current, unpredictable, and changeable conditions.

Cheers,
Arnie

[the fan]

I have run the YZF750 6 pots (with 5/8 master) and the R1/6 monoblocs (blue dot circa 2001) on my '95 YZF600. Those of you who have ridden with me know that I like to carry a good bit of corner speed and trail brake very late when plating on the street. I also spend a good bit of time on the track riding and as of last summer, coaching.

When I tried the YZF750 6 pots I was impressed with the overall power of the calipers but initial bite was poor and they lacked overall feel compared to the R6 monoblocs when hot. The "blue dots" offered great initial bite, more than enough overall power, and the performance didn't seem to drop off as much when hot. The "blue dots" also seemed to recover much quicker than the 6 pots when I did manage to heat them up.

On the street the blue dots were the hands down favorite. The improved initial bite and feel were way more important than overall power at even a very aggressive street pace. On the track this was less of an issue, but in the few times I worked the brakes hard enough to fade, I really preferred the consistency and quick recovery of the "blue dot" monoblocs over the power of the 6 pots.

The deciding factor was weight. I never put the parts on a scale, but the YZF750 6 pots were much heavier than the blue dots and didn't offer enough of an improvement to offset the weight. This may have something to do with the method of construction. The 6 pots are a bolt up design similar to the later model FJ (as well as the 95-96YZF which uses the same caliper as the FJ) which requires quite a bit more material to resist flex than the monobloc used on the later yamaha designs. Oddly enough the 4 and 6 pot calipers used on the GSXR and Hayabusa are also a 2 part design and if the 09 GSXR we campaigned this year is and indication, far inferior to the monoblocs used by the competition. (The 06 and 09 R6's we ran had far better brakes than the 09 GSXR).

The new radial mounted monoblocs have little or nothing in common with the earlier yamaha 6 pot design, and run 4 pads per caliper and very tiny pistons. Speaking with Sam Gage of MIII racing the feel between the '09 R6 and R1 are very similar, with slightly more power on the R1.