Joined a Machine Shop

[Millietant]

So, I've just found a gem of a little place, just 20 mins from home - a fully equipped machine shop, run by an ex factory Kawasaki Irish Road Race team mechanic, which is run much like a gym, with monthly membership plans that vary in cost depending on your abilities and the equipment you want to use.

https://the-machine-shop.co.uk/

As I'm familiar with most of the kit (except for welding) and have some time using the key items (lathe, milling machine, pillar drill, pipe bender etc), after an induction and a quick check on my abilities/technique, I've signed up to the "advanced" membership and been let loose to get on with doing the things I need to do.

First up was turning down a spacer and milling some material off a brake caliper mount, to get a 17" back wheel to fit into the VF 750 and line up properly.

The following evening, it was training for and then and using, the tyre changer to get 12 year old tyres off the wheels I'm putting on it and then back to the lathe to turn another couple of spacers.

I also went in with the VF swinging arm, to carefully drill out 2 very seized M8 Allen head bolts, whose heads sat in recesses in the aluminium. Here's where the benefits of having such a good experienced mechanic to hand showed up...............

"We're not drilling anything out was the cry" - so we went into the welding room with a couple of M10 nuts and an impact gun. 10 seconds of welding later and a big nut was firmly welded to the top of each recessed Allen head and a good dose of instantaneous localised heat had been applied to the bolt/threads by the welding. Both bolt heads then gave up their grip on the aluminium and each bolt came out instantly the impact gun was applied. Less than 2 minutes and the whole problem was sorted:- I'd spent more time stressing about how to set up the arm to drill out the bolts carefully than it took to actually do the whole job this way.

So, 3 days in and I've made more progress on the VF than I have in the last 6 months, and we've just started. What's more, I've just realised I could have saved a couple of mates a deal of cash by doing jobs for them that they've paid other shops to do for them !!

More milling is now planned, plus use of the blast cabinet to clean up a load of parts, then it'll be onto powder coating and using their nice ultrasonic cleaner (much nicer than the one I currently use at home) on the carbs.

I'm only just getting used to the endless possibilities this "self service" facility is opening up for me. And having a top class mechanic and engine builder, plus a professional CAD designer on hand for the tougher stuff is superb   and finally..... to top it all off, materials and parts (including tyres etc) are available at wholesale "cost" price !

Roll on winter........I am ready !!

[gdfj12]

Dean,

That's awesome that you have a place to use equipment like that. Back in 2012 I found a place called Techshop here in Detroit. It was a makerspace run by a company that had started in California and by 2017 had at least 9 locations around the USA. I was able to learn to TIG weld so I could repair a damaged frame for a Ninja 250 I was building for my wife. Then painted the frame. Stripped and powder coated the wheels. Stripped and powder coated a set of Mini R56 wheels. Made a stereo-A/V rack for the home theater in the basement. And learned a lot of new skills for making and fixing things. If anyone wants to fix or make things I highly recommend trying to find a makerspace nearby. They can be a great place to get access to more tools then you might be able to fit in your own garage or even afford. Plus, you'll likely have someone to teach you how to use the equipment or use it better.

Unfortunately for me and many other Techshop members, they went bankrupt and closed up shop in 2017 (most likely due to poor management.) I have since found another makerspace but Covid has made it difficult to use as much as I'd like to. Have fun fixing and modifying your stuff!

George

[red]

I also went in with the VF swinging arm, to carefully drill out 2 very seized M8 Allen head bolts, whose heads sat in recesses in the aluminium. Here's where the benefits of having such a good experienced mechanic to hand showed up...............
"We're not drilling anything out was the cry" - so we went into the welding room with a couple of M10 nuts and an impact gun. 10 seconds of welding later and a big nut was firmly welded to the top of each recessed Allen head and a good dose of instantaneous localised heat had been applied to the bolt/threads by the welding. Both bolt heads then gave up their grip on the aluminium and each bolt came out instantly the impact gun was applied.

Milletant,

Just a thought, but an impact gun can often remove the seized bolt and all of the almuinium threads around it.  It would be prudent to use a wrench, and remove those bolts by hand-torque only.  As you now know, you MAY get away with using an impact gun; it is also possible that you won't.  Spark plugs are prone to taking the threads out with them, when using an impact gun.  Hand tools should be preferred, for that work.

My US$.02 worth.

[Millietant]

Yeah, I hear you - I'd never use an impact gun on a spark plug.

Funnily enough though, I've just stripped a thread out of an aluminium wheel when trying to loosen a disc bolt by hand tool. Using a lower torque setting (75 Nm i think it was set at) on the impact gun was the method of choice this time with the nuts and heat, for the bolts in the swinging arm. These weren't stuck at the threads, the heads of the bolts sat inside the recesses so we're flush with the surface of the arm and corrosion was visible all around the heads. For the one that went straight through, it was a "loosely" tightened bolt with a split pin to prevent it unscrewing itself, as the rod used the bolt as a pivot point.

I not using Loctite on disc bolts again now  , what a pain when they've been in for 20+ years. I'll just keep checking them frequently  

[ribbert]

Looks like a great place Dean, I haven't seen any such thing here. Even for those with a well equipped home workshop there is a lot of tools and equipment that just can't be justified for occasional hobby use. Having experts on hand is brilliant, this expands the scale of jobs for DIY's enormously.

The judicious use of heat, hammers (and a bit of leverage) will move anything with ease. I kept an oxy set for decades for just this purpose but mig eventually took over and does a much better job. It delivers much more heat in a much shorter time which makes it much more effective.

As Red says, attacking bolts into aluminium with a rattle gun straight off is asking for trouble unless they are known to just be tight and not seized. Anyone using said gun on spark plugs should have a restraining order taken out prohibiting them from being within one mile of their bike if carrying tools.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why brake rotor mounting bolts use Loctite?

Noel

[red]

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why brake rotor mounting bolts use Loctite?
Noel

Noel,

My guess would be legal liability, if Loctite was not used and there was a rotor-related problem.

I come from an aircraft environment.  In that world, the bolts would be safety-wired bolt-to-bolt, no questions asked.  Ducati:

[Old Rider]

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why brake rotor mounting bolts use Loctite?

Noel

Bolts are steel rim is aluminium .Blue loctite is used to seal the treads and prevent moisture and corrosion and to prevent galling seized treads

[Millietant]

I'm with you Noel, and with the amount of safety lock-wiring there is on a S300 CBi helicopter, I prefer Red's solution too  

A bit of the back story here is that, I was certain that in both cases, the encased side of the Allen bolt heads were what had corroded in place, not the threads. I had already tried penetrating fluids where I could get a path to the threads and manual persuasion using my 3/8" drive Allen key socket set and a hammer. When those failed I used my 2' breaker bar and only succeeded in twisting the shank of the Allen key section. At that point, I was certain it wasn't the threads that were the problem and to be honest, neither bolt was carrying a linear load in service, so I made the last ditch choice to take a risk - if I damaged the threads (by drilling, as was my thought at the time) I wasn't worried as I'd have just helicoiled them anyway and put split pins back in new bolts.

Looking at both bolts when they came out, it was clear that there was no sign of corrosion on the thread section of either one.

Regarding disc bolt loctiting, I have no idea. I always assumed it was because there's a worry that with discs sitting unevenly or discs not being perfectly flat/warping slightly, there would be a vibration element through the discs that could cause the bolts to loosen over time.

In recent years, disc bolts have been the bane of the lives just about every biker I've met. Over the last 2 or 3 years, a couple of bike mechanics I trust with life (perhaps wrongly  ) have told me they never loctite  disc bolts in place. None have ever heard of a disc bolt actually coming loose and two sweat that since the advent of floating discs, it's not necessary. My closest mechanic friend said he stopped simply because he was swapping discs on his race bike wheels regularly and didn't want the bolts giving him grief and also that as he checked them after every race meeting (and has never had one loosen off), he thought it was just unnecessary.

But now....... You have to give the correct answer.............pleeeeze !

[RPM - Robert]

We do not loctite them either. Yamaha used to pre loctite the rotor bolts,  they no longer do. I don't know if this is a cost saving measure for them or if they are not loctite-ing from the factory on new bikes either.

If it is the first time having rotor bolts out. I hit them with a small handheld propane torch. Heat vs low to medium strength loctite used on rotor bolts, the heat wins. Bolts come right out. I do use a bit of ARP assembly lube and torque them to make sure the threads don't gall and they torque properly. Haven't had a problem yet.

[Millietant]

It's comforting to know you don't loctite them either Robert 

[ribbert]

I come from an aircraft environment.  In that world, the bolts would be safety-wired bolt-to-bolt, no questions asked.  

....and I from an automotive one. In that world we have more trust in threads, mostly! The automotive industry does however use other means to ensure things don't come loose in critical locations, such as castellated and nyloc/crimped nuts, spring washers and locking tabs, a number of which are used on our bikes.

I have never used Loctite on rotor bolts or much else for that matter. I have literally worked on many thousands of cars and bikes and cannot remember a single incident of nuts or bolts loosening themselves if fitted properly.

So why did Yamaha use Loctite on the rotors but not on the calipers and banjo bolts?

Noel

[red]

I come from an aircraft environment.  In that world, the bolts would be safety-wired bolt-to-bolt, no questions asked.

....and I from an automotive one. In that world we have more trust in threads, mostly! The automotive industry does however use other means to ensure things don't come loose in critical locations, such as castellated and nyloc/crimped nuts, spring washers and locking tabs, a number of which are used on our bikes. 
I have never used Loctite on rotor bolts or much else for that matter. I have literally worked on many thousands of cars and bikes and cannot remember a single incident of nuts or bolts loosening themselves if fitted properly.
So why did Yamaha use Loctite on the rotors but not on the calipers and banjo bolts?
Noel

Noel,

Money talks.  There are also Nylon locking bolts, too, but they cost more, and like Nyloc nuts, they only lock once, then they are trash (as intended, but maybe not in real life.)  If a caliper or banjo bolt came loose, you would know it very soon.  You may not notice a missing rotor bolt (or two) for some time.

[Old Rider]

So why did Yamaha use Loctite on the rotors but not on the calipers and banjo bolts?

Noel

I'm guessing the reason for using loctite on brake rotorbolts in addition to prevent galling and corrosion is because they have a small diameter and are screwed into aluminium
with  low torque spec.
BMW s1000rr has a rotorbolt torque spec at only 8 NM i would not ride that without loctite on the bolts.
Brake caliper bolts have bigger dia and much higher torque specs so maybe that is why they don't need loctite

[fj1289]

And don't forget you don't have to reach for the red loctite every time - the blue medium strength loctite is much more user friendly for future tear downs. 

[Millietant]

I've only ever used Loctite blue myself, but I've seen the red stuff when I've taken bikes out for the first time in my bikes.

The ones that I recently had trouble with on a back wheel, had signs of red residue on the threads.